Marriage With Ahl Al Kitab Men

[Karen_L 1]

I see.

Personally, I don't see how God punishing someone with eternal torment because a difference in opinion over ways of worship is consistent with the idea of a supremely loving God. Naturally, I will never be able to see this from your particular perspective, but I will say that throughout my education in Catholic school, we were taught that the Catholic perspective of God's nature is, along with being supremely loving, supremely rational; God bestows Reason unto human beings, as well as a sense of curiosity, questioning, and analysis; these are gifts from God and we're encouraged to use them and not follow anything without questioning its validity. The idea that God would want blind obedience and a completely homogenous society, doesn't seem to correspond to the nature of human beings, a nature that God has given to us. Interpretation, I think, is required of adherents of all faiths, and it is essential to Christian teaching (by that I'm mostly speaking of Christian denominations that existed before the Protestant Reformation); the Gospels are 4 versions of the same story, each slightly different, which in and of itself encourages analysis.

And personally, I don't believe ANY sacred text is the complete, literal word of God, no matter what it claims to be, though I think they're ALL divinely inspired. I think God offers guidance to us, which most of the time requires us to use our own skills and thoughts to understand and enact, but rarely gives explicit commands. I think this is at the heart of where you and I disagree VP, and that is fine by me; talking about these differences of opinion/belief are important and as long as it's done respectfully, no bad can ever come of it, imo. I also think there are ways for a person to accept a certain text as literal truth and still have room for analysis and for deepened understanding through interpretation.

Finally, regarding your last statement, I don't think ANY responsible person would enter into a marriage with ANYONE just because of sexual attraction; anyone who would do that is almost guaranteed a bad marriage, regardless of who they marry.

I don't believe anything in Islam goes against reason or the natural state of mankind. I believe it is in man's nature to believe in and submit to the will of God.

Every religion has rules and I don't think it's a horrible thing to believe that some things just might be out of our human understanding. God created us and as our Creator He is the one best suited to make laws for us. We obey those laws because we love and trust God.

I thought the catholics believe in hell? Am I wrong?

I do believe God wants everyone to act in accordance with His laws.... what other purpose would He have in sending them down?

I do believe that the Quran is the actual speech of God and not created in any way. I don't believe it was inspired... I believe it is the very words of God sent down to Muhammad and delivered to us word for word.

I believe the previous books were the same but are not anymore because men have done away with the words of God that they didn't like and replaced them with words of men that better suit their desires. It's my belief... you don't have to agree.

Catholics do believe in Hell, but one isn't sent there for not being Catholic; one of the primary differences between Catholic belief and (most) Protestant groups is the criteria for going to heaven or hell. Justification by faith alone is a Protestant idea; Catholics maintain that anyone can go to Heaven, so long as they are a good person, treat people well, etc, even if they don't believe Jesus is God, etc. This was clarified at the Second Vatican Council and this is why the former Pope was so enthusiastic about interreligious dialogue; for him, all paths were valid ways to experience God's love and deserving of respect, though Catholic theology was always maintained as factually correct (according to him, that is).

I agree; I don't think Islam goes against human nature and I think belief in *something* is also inherently human, as is the desire to please that deity; but I maintain that complete unquestioning belief in anything does contradict human nature, whether it's Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. This is just my opinion, of course. The fact that there ARE things about God that we cannot understand proves my point exactly -- if God is mysterious and transcendent, how can any one group claim to have complete knowledge of everything concerning Him? Leaving room for interpretation leaves open the possibilities of God's power, instead of limiting Him to what's literally written in a certain book or spoken by a certain person, etc.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Catholics do believe in Hell, but one isn't sent there for not being Catholic; one of the primary differences between Catholic belief and (most) Protestant groups is the criteria for going to heaven or hell. Justification by faith alone is a Protestant idea; Catholics maintain that anyone can go to Heaven, so long as they are a good person, treat people well, etc, even if they don't believe Jesus is God, etc. This was clarified at the Second Vatican Council and this is why the former Pope was so enthusiastic about interreligious dialogue; for him, all paths were valid ways to experience God's love and deserving of respect, though Catholic theology was always maintained as factually correct (according to him, that is).

I agree; I don't think Islam goes against human nature and I think belief in *something* is also inherently human, as is the desire to please that deity; but I maintain that complete unquestioning belief in anything does contradict human nature, whether it's Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. This is just my opinion, of course. The fact that there ARE things about God that we cannot understand proves my point exactly -- if God is mysterious and transcendent, how can any one group claim to have complete knowledge of everything concerning Him? Leaving room for interpretation leaves open the possibilities of God's power, instead of limiting Him to what's literally written in a certain book or spoken by a certain person, etc.

We are going to disagree on this.... I believe, if something is not directly addressed about God by God, we shouldn't question it. It is my opinion that this leads to making up things about God that's not true and falling into paganism and/or idol worship.

I don't believe God revealed everything about His nature nor do I believe He hid in any text for only some to figure it out. I believe there are many things we don't/can't understand and should leave it be.

I do believe God revealed everything that we need to know to properly obey and worship Him and this is all we require.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Karen L, I'm curious.... I'm assuming you're catholic based on your statements, if I'm wrong please forgive me....

What is your belief as to why Jesus died on the cross?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You are ignoring that there are 4 ( not 2) sources of Islamic law: Quaran, Sunnah, IJma and Ijtihad.

I have not ignored it, and in fact, dealth with it on the “Laws of Islam” thread and in a subsequent response on this thread.

Even though Quruan and Sunah “may" never have mentioned any thing about a Muslim woman marrying a Christian/ Jewish man the Ijma and Ijtihad of Muslim scholars agrees with prohibiting that. You can contact many of the Islamic centers who are responsible for Ijtihad and Fatwa via email or phone and check with them and make sure that you are doing what the right thing. I am sure there are many papers/research has been done in this area and someone can direct you to what the Islamic law says

The problem is, no scholar can make haram what Allah has not; that is why I mentioned the asl al deen. Besides, there is disagreement over what constitutes ijima; is it a consensus of the scholars (and which scholars?), and consensus involving the Companions, or a consensus of the ummah (what portion of the ummah?).

I work for 5 Islamic scholars, classically trained with ijaz who can issue fatwas, and none of them believe this ruling to be binding on all or that it creates a haram act. For one thing, Ijtihad and fatwas are only binding on those who fall under the jurisdiction of those who issue them, or for those who choose to follow them.

I already married out, by the way.

As might you know, in Arabic, every word in has a 3 letter verb that is is derived from, As far as the definition of mushrikeen or kuffar: mushrik is any one who accepts or believes that God has a "partner" in this whole creation and running of the world. Kafer is from the arabic work Kafer, i.e., covering something so not one can see it or denying the existence of something by deciding not to lok at it. Christianes and jews deny isalm as a religion and deny Allah as God. Hence the work Kuffar can be used on them. Kafer or Kuffar is not equivalent the English word infidel(s) it simply means the people who do not accept Islam.

There is only one God, and when Muslims deny that the God of the Christians and Jews is the same God as their own, they are doing the same thing they accuse the ahl al kitab of doing. Allah did not apply the words "musrikeen" or “kuffar’ to all ahl al kitab, and I will not do so either. He used "kuffur" to describe those who were hostile to Islam, not just those who did not call themselves Muslim. He has said that there will be Christians and Jews who will go to heaven and Muslism who will not, so, I follow no agenda that presupposes Muslims to be a Chosen People who will all go to heaven, for we have been warned against that and told firmly that Allah will judge between us all.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Personally, I don't see how God punishing someone with eternal torment because a difference in opinion over ways of worship is consistent with the idea of a supremely loving God. Naturally, I will never be able to see this from your particular perspective, but I will say that throughout my education in Catholic school, we were taught that the Catholic perspective of God's nature is, along with being supremely loving, supremely rational; God bestows Reason unto human beings, as well as a sense of curiosity, questioning, and analysis; these are gifts from God and we're encouraged to use them and not follow anything without questioning its validity. The idea that God would want blind obedience and a completely homogenous society, doesn't seem to correspond to the nature of human beings, a nature that God has given to us. Interpretation, I think, is required of adherents of all faiths, and it is essential to Christian teaching (by that I'm mostly speaking of Christian denominations that existed before the Protestant Reformation); the Gospels are 4 versions of the same story, each slightly different, which in and of itself encourages analysis.

Karen, something you need to realize is that Muslims like Layla refuse to believe that the God of Islam is for all mankind. They see themselves as elevated above all humanity. Their vision of God is that He is cruel to those who disagree with them. Look at how she dismisses my views of a loving God who allows interfaith marriage and will allow some non-Muslims into heaven as pagan, and calls me a pagan, denying that I can be Muslim, thus negating by her words my humanity and protection under God as much as she does any other non-Muslim she is convinced will go to hell.

If I'm not Muslim, she believes she can dismiss me as inherently wrong, because, in her mind, all non-Muslims are inherently wrong.

This is not a rational or traditional view of Islam, nor a welcoming one. Layla belongs to a sect that has a dark, separatist vision of Islam, one that denies the ayat that I have posted declaring that Allah intends diversity of belief. Notice that she never once approaches those ayat in order to explain why they exist and how they fit into her presentation of Islam as something narrowly defined and open only to those who believe as she does, does what she does, and provide no challenge to her beliefs.

One thing that I have observed in some of the converts I have worked with is that there is always a fraction of them every ready to condemn those who are as they were recently – non-Muslim. Perhaps it is done out of guilt that they were not born Muslim or didn’t come to it sooner; perhaps they have a great need to put lots of distance between those who remind them of what they once were and what they are trying to be now. But until they can let go of the obvious chip on their shoulder against non-Muslims, they will not have sufficient energy to apply to expanding their own knowledge and tawhid, for they are focused outward, not on the inner work that must be done.

Edited September 21, 2006 by szsz

[Bosco 1]

I know not all of you read Arabic, but here is an article that may be of interest

link

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I know not all of you read Arabic, but here is an article that may be of interest

link

Warning:

Your post, for some reason, made me think of a clip on the Daily Show that dealt with homosexuals in the military. The piece involved an Arabic translator who was fired for being gay.

Here is the clip - (NSFW) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_kHYAp3yg

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Something that many Muslims do not know is that Abu Bakr engaged Aisha to a Christian man before she was engaged to the Prophet. He was the son of a man who had supported the Muslims, and a deal was made to marry his daughter to the man's son, Jubair Ibn al Mut’am inb ‘Adi. The engagement was broken because the Prophet was told to marry her.

And I have mentioned before that there were Muslim women married to non-Muslim within the Prophet's inner circle whom he never forced to divorce.

I will say that I will not engage in a cut and paste from websites war, nor in juvenile name-calling. I have extensive training and experience in discussing Islamic law on a scholarly level, and while that may sound snobby, I simply do not wish to address this issue as cut and paste from websites I like and that agree with me. I would rather refer to the Quran, Sunnah, fiqh and the methodologies involved in deciding law. If that is too much for some of you, please let me know.

I know not all of you read Arabic, but here is an article that may be of interest

Turabi is an interesting character. He supports Usama bin Laden, and the Taliban, but is big on women's rights.

[Karen_L 1]

Karen L, I'm curious.... I'm assuming you're catholic based on your statements, if I'm wrong please forgive me....

What is your belief as to why Jesus died on the cross?

Hi VP -- I would love to address this question, but I'm very pressed for time tonight, so I will try and answer it tomorrow (when I'm at the office, while I should be doing work... ha ha ha). For now, I will say that I *am* baptized Catholic, and tomorrow I will try to address the issue of Jesus's death both in terms of official Catholic belief and my own opinion on the matter, which I will hopefully be able to articulate.

SZSZ -- I also really want to discuss the points you made as well, about the differences between your understanding of Islam and VP's. I mean, I think it's pretty clear that you and I are more on the same wavelength than VP and I, lol, but I'd still like to discuss what you say, epecially in terms of the traditional view of Islam you mentioned; i.e. the differences between medieval Islam and medieval Christianity, particularly Catholicism; my observation is that Catholicism has gotten far more liberal over the centuries, while Islam has gotten much more conservative -- I also find it interesting that both ancient Catholic and medieval Muslim philosophers examined the same ancient texts in relationship to their own particular faiths, i.e. Plato, and how Muslim scholars preserved these texts, which were absent from Europe until the Renaissance.

BUT... now I gotta go!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

For those who do not read Arabic, here is a summary about Dr. Al Turabi's fatwa regarding Muslim women marrying ahl al kitab men, a fatwa which has caused much controversy. He is correct that there is nothing in sharia that prohibits it, and he is not alone among scholars in saying that it is not haram and should not be prohibited.

A similar view was held by the Emir of Ethiopia who encouraged marriage between Muslim women and men of the Book as a means of spreading Islam. Studes have shown that, in the west, the children of Muslim women and ahl al kitab men are more likely to be Muslim as adults than the children of Muslim men and ahl al kitab women, since women spend more time with their children. I know that has been true in my own family.

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I have shown the proof for why I believe marriage between muslim women and non-muslim men is haraam.... I agree with the scholars on this....

I don't really care what anyone else here believes or does with their life... I'm just making a point that it's not fun when someone starts passing judgement and calling you names in public because you don't agree with them...

Karen L, I know what the church believes was the point of Jesus' death. I asked you because you stated that the catholic church doesn't believe that anyone is going to hell because they're not catholic BUT as I see it, any christian who believes Jesus died on the cross to forgive sins and the only way to heaven is to believe in that is no different than my belief that only those who believe la ilaha illa Allah (there is no god but Allah) is going to heaven. We both believe that if you don't hold what we consider to be the correct belief then you won't make it.

Everyone believes they've got the lock on God... even those who claim they don't

I had a friend.. a pagan man... he swears we are all just an elaborate experiment by aliens... he believes they gave us many religions to see how long we'd kill ourselves over them Wouldn't it be funny and a little sad if that were the 'truth'?? He, obviously, needs to stop smoking that stuff but it's a funny theory none the less. He also believes his belief to be the truth and doesn't accept any other.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[Karen_L 1]

I have shown the proof for why I believe marriage between muslim women and non-muslim men is haraam.... I agree with the scholars on this....

I don't really care what anyone else here believes or does with their life... I'm just making a point that it's not fun when someone starts passing judgement and calling you names in public because you don't agree with them...

Karen L, I know what the church believes was the point of Jesus' death. I asked you because you stated that the catholic church doesn't believe that anyone is going to hell because they're not catholic BUT as I see it, any christian who believes Jesus died on the cross to forgive sins and the only way to heaven is to believe in that is no different than my belief that only those who believe la ilaha illa Allah (there is no god but Allah) is going to heaven. We both believe that if you don't hold what we consider to be the correct belief then you won't make it.

Everyone believes they've got the lock on God... even those who claim they don't

Honestly, I've just been discussing this with you because I think it's interesting to learn what other people of different beliefs think. I realized a while ago that you and I will probably never see eye-to-eye, and that's fine, since I think we're both entitled to our opinions

Certainly the Church believes that it's correct in its theology, but as I said, Catholics don't officially believe that a person must believe in Jesus (or certain things about Jesus) to get to Heaven. The Catholic belief about "getting into heaven through the intercession of Jesus" is, basically, that because Jesus is God, He will choose who He will to enter Heaven, and according to Catholic teaching the criteria by which a person can make it or not is your behavior during life, how you treat others, etc, not which religion you belong to. Likewise, acting in a Christ-like way (with or without knowing that your behavior is Christ-like) will get you there. I realize there are certain Christian denominations that believe a person must be Christian to get into Heaven, but Catholic isn't one of them. Aside from official teaching, all of the Catholics I know, old and young, those who've read encyclicals and those who haven't, when I've asked their opinions in the past about whether non-Christians can go to heaven, have ALL told me "of course, if they're kind people and do good things in life." I'm sure there are "devout" Catholics somewhere who believe that you have to be Christian to get in, but they're mistaken, officially-speaking, about Church policy.

Speaking generally, I think there is a way to believe what you believe very strongly, while also maintaining the idea that others won't think the same way and even if those others are somehow faulty in their beliefs (according to you), as long as their beliefs breed positive things in the world and encourage them to be a good person, it pleases God and is okay.

My personal belief is that... I'm still searching; I'm 22 years old, and I think it's too early for me to have set-in-stone my every idea about God. As for now, I believe in God, I believe that this God calls us to treat each other kindly, to respect one another, ourselves, other creatures. I also believe that Jesus was the superlative example of God's calling for humankind and that, although many people throughout history have been divinely inspired by God, Jesus is the most important person, because his teachings, imo, get to the heart of creating human happiness, harmony, and worship of God while being able to co-exist with people who have different ideas. I believe God wants us to use our Reason in our worship and I don't think God could want unquestioning obedience -- one discerning, willful follower is, imo, more powerful than 100 who follow something just out of fear of punishment or just to be told what to do so they don't have to think about it themselves (which is what lots of people do, at least in my observation). This is just my opinion, of course. Jesus' actual divinity is still undecided in my mind, though I think it doesn't *really* matter, since His message is just as important, useful and lovely regardless.

I had a friend.. a pagan man... he swears we are all just an elaborate experiment by aliens... he believes they gave us many religions to see how long we'd kill ourselves over them Wouldn't it be funny and a little sad if that were the 'truth'?? He, obviously, needs to stop smoking that stuff but it's a funny theory none the less. He also believes his belief to be the truth and doesn't accept any other.

I tells ya... with each passing day, I think this guy's theory gets proven a little bit more lol

[zzerous 0]

You are ignoring that there are 4 ( not 2) sources of Islamic law: Quaran, Sunnah, IJma and Ijtihad.

I have not ignored it, and in fact, dealth with it on the “Laws of Islam” thread and in a subsequent response on this thread.

Even though Quruan and Sunah “may" never have mentioned any thing about a Muslim woman marrying a Christian/ Jewish man the Ijma and Ijtihad of Muslim scholars agrees with prohibiting that. You can contact many of the Islamic centers who are responsible for Ijtihad and Fatwa via email or phone and check with them and make sure that you are doing what the right thing. I am sure there are many papers/research has been done in this area and someone can direct you to what the Islamic law says

The problem is, no scholar can make haram what Allah has not; that is why I mentioned the asl al deen. Besides, there is disagreement over what constitutes ijima; is it a consensus of the scholars (and which scholars?), and consensus involving the Companions, or a consensus of the ummah (what portion of the ummah?).

As a Muslim you should not use any disagreement to your own personal advantage. Allah asked us to avould " Shobahat". Ask Muslims, ypu pick ypir number, and find out whay portion is For/Aganist and this can give you and indication. Ask Muslim scholaresm, not just the 5 Islamic Scholars ( who I am really interested in knowing who they are and which university/ cenbter they work for) and find out what portion is FOR/Against.

I work for 5 Islamic scholars, classically trained with ijaz who can issue fatwas, and none of them believe this ruling to be binding on all or that it creates a haram act. For one thing, Ijtihad and fatwas are only binding on those who fall under the jurisdiction of those who issue them, or for those who choose to follow them.

I already married out, by the way.

That is not a reason why you should continue if you find out that is is Haram. That is why I asked you top find out and research it.

As might you know, in Arabic, every word in has a 3 letter verb that is is derived from, As far as the definition of mushrikeen or kuffar: mushrik is any one who accepts or believes that God has a "partner" in this whole creation and running of the world. Kafer is from the arabic work Kafer, i.e., covering something so not one can see it or denying the existence of something by deciding not to lok at it. Christianes and jews deny isalm as a religion and deny Allah as God. Hence the work Kuffar can be used on them. Kafer or Kuffar is not equivalent the English word infidel(s) it simply means the people who do not accept Islam.

There is only one God, and when Muslims deny that the God of the Christians and Jews is the same God as their own, they are doing the same thing they accuse the ahl al kitab of doing. Allah did not apply the words "musrikeen" or “kuffar’ to all ahl al kitab, and I will not do so either. He used "kuffur" to describe those who were hostile to Islam, not just those who did not call themselves Muslim. He has said that there will be Christians and Jews who will go to heaven and Muslism who will not, so, I follow no agenda that presupposes Muslims to be a Chosen People who will all go to heaven, for we have been warned against that and told firmly that Allah will judge between us all.

[b]Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.[/b]

[Veiled Princess 1]

Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.

It's nice to see someone who knows their deen

I am curious though, because SZSZ can be the only authority on Islam here since she happens to be a 500 year old born and raised muslim.... can you tell us anything about your background?

[Bosco 1]

[b]Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.[/b]

My understanding of this has always been Islam meaning submission and not as the name of an organized religion.