HUMAN NATURE

[Captain Oates 911]

I know people who believe in the innate goodness of people yet I see much badness around me and I wonder about the 'default' for humans

Let me give you one subject to dwell on:

Remember when you about 11 and you went to senior school ? Do you remember the older kids trying to make you kow-tow simply because you were new ?

We all turned up in our expensive uniforms with nice hats that our parents had saved for.

The kids from year 3 and up, took our hats and threw them down the 'frog hole' They then spit on them. We didn't take our hats home at the end of the day and we got in trouble from our parents

All these years later, I see middle aged people behaving in exactly to the same way to 'newbies' and they make them act in a subservient way

Internet boards are a good example. Join any and you will quickly be told you know nothing and you will be treated like you have just hatched out - just because you are new

Of course its a mammalian animalistic trait and a new lion or wolf who joins a pack will be bitten and cowered and will come last in the food line - but shouldn't we be better than that ?

Is human nature bad or good by default and why do these nasty traits stay with humans (male/female/young/old) all through their lives ?

I suspect we are just mammals that's all and we can't be blamed for acting like animals because that is what we are

[웃 910]

Of course its a mammalian animalistic trait and a new lion or wolf who joins a pack will be bitten and cowered and will come last in the food line - but shouldn't we be better than that ?

Is human nature bad or good by default and why do these nasty traits stay with humans (male/female/young/old) all through their lives ?

I suspect we are just mammals that's all and we can't be blamed for acting like animals because that is what we are

Because we are made in God's image. For example, She will not hesitate to cast all non Christians into an oven when they perish.

[Captain Oates 911]

Because we are made in God's image. For example, She will not hesitate to cast all non Christians into an oven when they perish.

Beg pardon my lud but this isn't religion and politics forum so we cant go there - much

even though I agree with you totally !

I try hard to like people but they make it so difficult for me

Edited September 15, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Well, you have to look at 'individual' verus 'pack' mentality.

The new person may be more accepted to individuals than he/she will be to the group itself.

We as individuals do not have much fear towards others and are more 'curious' on our own. However when there's an entire group, the group feels threatened by outsiders who might be there to tear the group apart. The group has to establish itself to the new individual and show them the picking order. You see this commonly where two kids who live in the same neighborhood can be best friends after school, but during school the attitude is different in the group setting.

[Captain Oates 911]

Well, you have to look at 'individual' verus 'pack' mentality.

The new person may be more accepted to individuals than he/she will be to the group itself.

We as individuals do not have much fear towards others and are more 'curious' on our own. However when there's an entire group, the group feels threatened by outsiders who might be there to tear the group apart. The group has to establish itself to the new individual and show them the picking order. You see this commonly where two kids who live in the same neighborhood can be best friends after school, but during school the attitude is different in the group setting.

Yes I have noticed that when you split individuals off from a group, they are always less aggressive. I have always put that down to to them not having the 'strength of the pack' around them. However, it's not easy for them to split from the pack while in the presence of the pack.

We all know of teenage girls who wont talk to another girl because she spoke to a girl that the pack was shunning.

My remarks are not directed at VJ or a specific website in any way, but some websites do show this pack mentality very well and the thing is that conversations are conducted in the full view of the rest of the pack.

I think the 'sameness' of the existing members is important too. I was once on a forum (different - not VJ) where the moderators were almost identical middle aged women and obviously very anti any outgoing males they came across. They had a real go at me but one of them PM'd me to say she didn't agree with the way the way the others were 'ganging up', but she couldn't say it on the thread.

I think being very aware of this is important for people who change jobs or clubs or any group because they need to know that the established pack will seek to make them submit to being inferior before they are tolerated. If we are actually inferior to them (activities of the club-wise), then this is acceptable, but the problem comes when we know the activities or the job better than they do, and yet we are new and our knowledge and skills are not acceptable because we are new. Any new senior employee sent to a new location will know of this phenomenon. Its a formula for great friction.

Of course people who act in this 'small minded ' way expose themselves as being little more than wolves or broncos in their thinking and are candidates for payback when the new member gets established. Then the cycle starts again with the bullied becoming the bullyer.

Fortunately there have always been an enlightened few who will risk the wrath of the group by befriending the newcomer.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Yes I have noticed that when you split individuals off from a group, they are always less aggressive. I have always put that down to to them not having the 'strength of the pack' around them. However, it's not easy for them to split from the pack while in the presence of the pack.

We all know of teenage girls who wont talk to another girl because she spoke to a girl that the pack was shunning.

My remarks are not directed at VJ or a specific website in any way, but some websites do show this pack mentality very well and the thing is that conversations are conducted in the full view of the rest of the pack.

I think the 'sameness' of the existing members is important too. I was once on a forum (different - not VJ) where the moderators were almost identical middle aged women and obviously very anti any outgoing males they came across. They had a real go at me but one of them PM'd me to say she didn't agree with the way the way the others were 'ganging up', but she couldn't say it on the thread.

I think being very aware of this is important for people who change jobs or clubs or any group because they need to know that the established pack will seek to make them submit to being inferior before they are tolerated. If we are actually inferior to them (activities of the club-wise), then this is acceptable, but the problem comes when we know the activities or the job better than they do, and yet we are new and our knowledge and skills are not acceptable because we are new. Any new senior employee sent to a new location will know of this phenomenon. Its a formula for great friction.

Of course people who act in this 'small minded ' way expose themselves as being little more than wolves or broncos in their thinking and are candidates for payback when the new member gets established. Then the cycle starts again with the bullied becoming the bullyer.

Fortunately there have always been an enlightened few who will risk the wrath of the group by befriending the newcomer.

Yeah, that's just it. The group is threatened in those situations, especially when the group is being challenged on their views. Being the new guy and the smartest person in the room is not a 'becoming' quality at first. Not until you earn the group's trust can you actually come forward with 'ideas' that might be slightly different or better than what the group normally has to offer.

It's funny because it works that way in schools/society. When the 'dumber' part of society encounters a 'nerd' they pounce on him/her like rabid wolves. Being 'smart' is not cool in many cases because the inferiority complex kicks in. When that kicks in and there's the numbers behind you, it's easy to outcast the one guy in the room who could make the group be better off.

Imagine if society had done this to great invenstors like Franklin, Edison, and Bell... We'd be SOL.

[Captain Oates 911]

Yeah, that's just it. The group is threatened in those situations, especially when the group is being challenged on their views. Being the new guy and the smartest person in the room is not a 'becoming' quality at first. Not until you earn the group's trust can you actually come forward with 'ideas' that might be slightly different or better than what the group normally has to offer.

It's funny because it works that way in schools/society. When the 'dumber' part of society encounters a 'nerd' they pounce on him/her like rabid wolves. Being 'smart' is not cool in many cases because the inferiority complex kicks in. When that kicks in and there's the numbers behind you, it's easy to outcast the one guy in the room who could make the group be better off.

Imagine if society had done this to great invenstors like Franklin, Edison, and Bell... We'd be SOL.

They teach us stuff in school but this is the real knowledge we need to survive and I suppose we are expected to figure out that the whole world is like this and not just this group who is acting as a pack.

Bearing gifts always works. We had a guy who joined our rifle club in England and in 3 months he was running it as Secretary. He was the Managing Director of a big company and said he would get us grants to build a new range. That worked. We got our new range too.

It's a pity we need to watch Caesar's dog training classes in order to learn how to deal with our fellow humans. Unfortunately my wife saw it first and she (figuratively) kicks me with her heel and says 'shush'. I don't so its a problem.

I have always thought that a high percentage of human behaviors is pure animal instinct, but the older I get, the more that percentage increases in my estimation.

I saw a very overweight family sitting crosslegged in a circle in the park last weekend and I swear it was like watching a film on a group of gorillas. They even had a silver back male.

I have never liked the idea of manipulating people, but if I am right, then manipulation in the style of Caesar the dog trainer would seem appropriate. This would involve maintaining self respect by debunking existing members in a very gentle way so that they knew I was to be reckoned with in the future, but without challenging their 'king/queen of the hill' status immediately

I have found out that men and women can be equally vicious/violent and there is little differences in their pack behavior

[Obama 2012 1,714]

They teach us stuff in school but this is the real knowledge we need to survive and I suppose we are expected to figure out that the whole world is like this and not just this group who is acting as a pack.

Bearing gifts always works. We had a guy who joined our rifle club in England and in 3 months he was running it as Secretary. He was the Managing Director of a big company and said he would get us grants to build a new range. That worked. We got our new range too.

It's a pity we need to watch Caesar's dog training classes in order to learn how to deal with our fellow humans. Unfortunately my wife saw it first and she (figuratively) kicks me with her heel and says 'shush'. I don't so its a problem.

I have always thought that a high percentage of human behaviors is pure animal instinct, but the older I get, the more that percentage increases in my estimation.

I saw a very overweight family sitting crosslegged in a circle in the park last weekend and I swear it was like watching a film on a group of gorillas. They even had a silver back male.

I have never liked the idea of manipulating people, but if I am right, then manipulation in the style of Caesar the dog trainer would seem appropriate. This would involve maintaining self respect by debunking existing members in a very gentle way so that they knew I was to be reckoned with in the future, but without challenging their 'king/queen of the hill' status immediately

I have found out that men and women can be equally vicious/violent and there is little differences in their pack behavior

Oh yeah men and women are very similar in that regard. The difference comes in the things they are being vicious/violent about.

The reason why we don't like the idea of manilulating people, comes from the fact that we don't want to be or think we are being manipulated ourselves. The fact of the matter is in human beings; just like any other species, is that we have leaders and we have followers. Of course there are different degrees of this throughout society as well. All you need to do is find the weakness in a person or a group of people and prey on that or give them something that makes you look like you are superior in some way.

Look at people like Jim Jones for example. David Koresh, etc. Look at Hitler and what he was able to accomplish. The Nazi soldiers weren't all 'evil' as we make them out to be. They were men following orders. Men who respected and feared their leader.

Not to get too 'political' mind you, but it's also why there is a huge divide in this country today. Political parties prey on people to get them to vote for them. They prey on their weaknesses, their fears, their aspirations. They make one party look like they're the bad guy, while making themselves look like perfect angels. In reality both parties are the same in who they submit to, act on behalf of. It's why the 'party leaders' stay the same in Washington. You can have new congressman here and there, but the older ones always remain in control.

[Captain Oates 911]

Oh yeah men and women are very similar in that regard. The difference comes in the things they are being vicious/violent about.

The reason why we don't like the idea of manilulating people, comes from the fact that we don't want to be or think we are being manipulated ourselves. The fact of the matter is in human beings; just like any other species, is that we have leaders and we have followers. Of course there are different degrees of this throughout society as well. All you need to do is find the weakness in a person or a group of people and prey on that or give them something that makes you look like you are superior in some way.

Look at people like Jim Jones for example. David Koresh, etc. Look at Hitler and what he was able to accomplish. The Nazi soldiers weren't all 'evil' as we make them out to be. They were men following orders. Men who respected and feared their leader.

Not to get too 'political' mind you, but it's also why there is a huge divide in this country today. Political parties prey on people to get them to vote for them. They prey on their weaknesses, their fears, their aspirations. They make one party look like they're the bad guy, while making themselves look like perfect angels. In reality both parties are the same in who they submit to, act on behalf of. It's why the 'party leaders' stay the same in Washington. You can have new congressman here and there, but the older ones always remain in control.

It's also a good reason to be careful about 'the grass is always greener' and leaving one group to join another, because we always must start at the bottom.

Once we have achieved status is a group, leaving it is risky.

When people leave big companies and become successes, they don't start again at the bottom, they strike out on their own

So self development and acquiring new interests is most rewarding but at the cost of always being the new boy who is required to learn attentively. I don't mind doing that so long as I am learning something, the trouble comes when I know I know more than the new pack leader.

Then its like a new male lion joining a new pride - there is no gentle way to do it and only defeating the leader will bring the pack in line.

This hermit thing seems to have a lot to commend it - so long as I had other hermits for company !

Edited September 15, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Punch them square in the nose ONCE and you get respect. Not because you are tougher than them, but because you are tougher than some other victim. Job done. Humans all around you become much "good-er"

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I think it's good that human nature is bad.

[MyLittlePony 340]

No such thing as a perfect human if there were i be a spelling GOD.

[Captain Oates 911]

No such thing as a perfect human if there were i be a spelling GOD.

Think of all the things a person could be:

Forger

Scammer

Exposer

Pedophile

Robber

Thief

Murderer

Drunk driver

Adulterer

Drug User

Drug dealer

etc etc - the list would be very, very long and go on for page after page

Think of how many of each there are in your country

Think of the number of forged checks per annum

When you add it all up, every other person you meet will be a 'something'

We are surrounded by some real scum and it can be a very nasty world out there

When you then pile on your bank, the government, the police etc - they are all watching you with computers and cameras and after you for money in taxes/fines/fees, and then if you are unlucky, they draft your child into the army and he gets killed on their say so

Sorry about bringing all this to your attention but it's the truth. It really is a jungle out there.

Makes me wonder how I have come so far and relatively unscathed !

[MyLittlePony 340]

Think of all the things a person could be:

Forger

Scammer

Exposer

Pedophile

Robber

Thief

Murderer

Drunk driver

Adulterer

Drug User

Drug dealer

etc etc - the list would be very, very long and go on for page after page

Think of how many of each there are in your country

Think of the number of forged checks per annum

When you add it all up, every other person you meet will be a 'something'

We are surrounded by some real scum and it can be a very nasty world out there

When you then pile on your bank, the government, the police etc - they are all watching you with computers and cameras and after you for money in taxes/fines/fees, and then if you are unlucky, they draft your child into the army and he gets killed on their say so

Sorry about bringing all this to your attention but it's the truth. It really is a jungle out there.

Makes me wonder how I have come so far and relatively unscathed !

Thank god i never fit in those.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

This reminds me of a story (yeah, it kind of has a moral, too - sorry )

A man comes into a bar and sits down. He asks for a beer and then says to the bartender "I'm thinking of moving to this town. What's it like here?"

The bartender asks him, 'What's it like where you come from?"

The man responds "Oh, it's just terrible. The people are unfriendly; nobody talks to you; no one shares things; everyone is always complaining about how bad things are; the government is corrupt, my boss hates me and is out to get me - it is just a terrible place to live. That's why I want to get away".

The bar-tender says 'Well, I'm afraid you would probably find things exactly the same way here."

The man stands up, shakes his head sadly, and says "Yeah, that's what I thought. Well, I guess I'll be trying someplace else then".

A little while later, another man comes into the bar and asks for a beer. The bartender serves him and the man asks" So, I'm thinking of moving to this town. What's it like here?"

The bartender asks him, "What's it like where you come from?"

The man replies" Oh, it is a great place. Everywhere I go people are smiling at me; everyone is so friendly and kind. I walk down the street and find friends everywhere. My neighbours are so helpful and considerate and there is so much to do there. I'm really going to miss it!"

The bar tender replies "Well, I think you would probably find things exactly the same way here".

"Great!" says the man, "That's exactly what I was hoping I'd hear!".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While I don't think it is as cut and dried as that, I do think there is a good degree of truth in it. I think you do often find what you expect to find mainly because that is what you are looking for. If you expect difficulties, you find difficulties; if you expect trouble, you find trouble; if you expect friendliness, you find friendliness; if you expect goodness, you find goodness. It has generally worked for me wherever I have lived.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Kathryn41