Palestinians to seek full UN membership Sept. 23

[luckytxn 2,264]

Their responsibility actually goes back to the first Muslim conquest in 638, revising again when Saladin retakes Jerusalem.

That is a long time indeed. Never been and probably never will but have seen pics and the place looks in good shape. Excellent Muslim-Christian partnership there.

[luckytxn 2,264]

A bunch of crappy T-55's that couldn't fire downhill from prepared positions?

The idiots should have bought American. Egypt realized their mistake and dropped the Soviet Union after that and went American.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

That is a long time indeed. Never been and probably never will but have seen pics and the place looks in good shape. Excellent Muslim-Christian partnership there.

Next to the Church, Saladin built a mosque, named after Umer, the second Caliph of the Muslim ummah who lead the first conquest of Jerusalem. The buildings and their attendees have existed side by side since that time.

[Dan and Judy 614]

The Palestinians have already recognized the State of Israel on the 1967 lines - that's a huge compromise, ceding more than half the territory that the U.N. Partition designated for the Arab State. (Israel's unilateral annexation of that additional territory in 1948 has never been internationally recognized.)

That's much too generous of the Palestinians. They need to modify their approach. Instead of giving everything away up front, they should play coy.

What the Israelis want is a little lovin

Sadat went to bed with them and woke up with the whole Sinai peninsula.

Just give em a little love.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Next to the Church, Saladin built a mosque, named after Umer, the second Caliph of the Muslim ummah who lead the first conquest of Jerusalem. The buildings and their attendees have existed side by side since that time.

Yes I have seen pictures of it. Makes me want to go visit it one day. Do they allow Texans into the mosque?

[Dan and Judy 614]

Yes I have seen pictures of it. Makes me want to go visit it one day. Do they allow Texans into the mosque?

Not with their boots on.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Not with their boots on.

I even have to take my boots off at my own home when I enter.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You might want to explain to luckytxn just exactly how and why the borders changed in 1948. You seemed to have left that important part of the story out.

Do tell please.

It's simple, really: per international law, a country cannot acquire territory by war - a state's sovereign territorial borders don't change by force or military occupation; they change by international treaty and international recognition.

Israel defined its borders when it proclaimed its sovereign state on May 14, 1948, when it specifically stated its borders were as described in UN 181 as the territory designated for the Jewish State:

MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o'clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decad169.asp

So Israel confirms that the area in blue is the State of Israel:

Israel then confirmed those borders to the UN on May 22, 1948, and confirmed that the territory it controlled by force outside the area defined in 181 was "outside the territory of Israel":

“Question (a): Over which areas of Palestine do you actually exercise control at present over the entire area of the Jewish State as defined in the Resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947. In addition, the Provisional Government exercises control over the city of Jaffa; Northwestern Galilee, including Acre, Zib, Base, and the Jewish settlements up to the Lebanese frontier; a strip of territory alongside the road from Hilda to Jerusalem; almost all of new Jerusalem; and of the Jewish quarter within the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. The above areas, outside the territory of the State of Israel, are under the control of the military authorities of the State of Israel, who are strictly adhering to international regulations in this regard. The Southern Negev is uninhabited desert over which no effective authority has ever existed.”

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/B4085A930E0529C98025649D00410973

Read the document - it repeatedly affirms that Israel's military operations in 1948 extended "outside the territory of Israel."

The borders that Israel accepted upon its establishment define the territory that has been internationally recognized as the State of Israel. This has been repeatedly confirmed in various documents.

Israel certainly did try to claim the additional territory. For instance, on August 31, 1949:

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/fd807e46661e3689852570d00069e918/c96e0252e7710bce85256d95006bc157?OpenDocument

But the UN did not accept the proposal and it was never recognized.

As the British government replied:

“His Majesty’s Government have also decided to accord de jure recognition to the State of Israel, subject to explanations on two points corresponding to those described above in regard to the case of Jordan. These points are as follows. First, that His Majesty’s Government are unable to recognise the sovereignty of Israel over that part of Jerusalem which she occupies, though, pending a final determination of the status of the area, they recognise that Israel exercises de facto authority in it. Secondly, that His Majesty’s Government cannot regard the present boundaries between Israel, and Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon as constituting the definitive frontiers of Israel, as these boundaries were laid 1139 down in the Armistice Agreements concluded severally between Israel and each of these States, and are subject to any modifications which may be agreed upon under the terms of those Agreements, or of any final settlements which may replace them.”

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1950/apr/27/jordan-and-israel-government-decision

So Israel's attempts to legally annex this additional territory and claim it as part of sovereign Israel have been repeatedly rebuffed by the international community, specifically in UNSC Resolution 252 and UNSC Resolution 497.

This map shows the area (in pink) that has never been internationally recognized as part of the State of Israel - as the UN has confirmed over and over, these are Armistice lines, not Israel's sovereign borders:

So... if you can find any UN document or international treaty that cedes any extra territory to the State of Israel beyond what is described in 181, please present it.

Because the only way that Israel can legally extend its borders to the 1967 lines is to have an agreement with the Palestinians that formally cedes it to Israel. The establishment of a Palestinian State on the 1967 lines would be such an agreement.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Just an additional note: the Syrian and Lebanese territory that Israel occupied in 1967 - the Golan Heights and Shebaa Farms - are separate issues, not part of the Palestinian statehood bid. Again, the international community recognizes that these areas are occupied, not part of sovereign Israel. The only way Israel could legally expand its territory into these areas would be to get Syria and Lebanon to agree.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Here's a new public opinion poll from the BBC, published today - they interviewed 20,446 citizens in 19 different countries between the beginning of July and the end of August this year.

Participating countries:

The overall results:

And results by country:

http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc2011_palestine/

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Here's a new public opinion poll from the BBC, published today - they interviewed 20,446 citizens in 19 different countries between the beginning of July and the end of August this year.

Participating countries:

The overall results:

And results by country:

http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc2011_palestine/

India surprised me.

[mawilson 2,133]

India surprised me.

India understands Islamic terrorism very well.

[Boiler 44,929]

It's simple, really: per international law, a country cannot acquire territory by war - a state's sovereign territorial borders don't change by force or military occupation; they change by international treaty and international recognition.

Israel then confirmed those borders to the UN on May 22, 1948, and confirmed that the territory it controlled by force outside the area defined in 181 was "outside the territory of Israel":

Because the only way that Israel can legally extend its borders to the 1967 lines is to have an agreement with the Palestinians that formally cedes it to Israel. The establishment of a Palestinian State on the 1967 lines would be such an agreement.

So when did the Jews formally cede their state to the Palestinians? Or the Ottomans or whoever.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

So when did the Jews formally cede their state to the Palestinians? Or the Ottomans or whoever.

Maybe when the Romans slaughtered them?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

So when did the Jews formally cede their state to the Palestinians? Or the Ottomans or whoever.

Maybe when the Romans slaughtered them?

I thought the remaining Jews committed suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

Edited September 19, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv