Wife's Employer Asking to See Her Greencard

[Used to be broken 147]

Why the fuss about showing it?

Thats the question to be asked of the employer who cannot read the I9 instructions.

[Used to be broken 147]

I disagree, you have to give proof of employment authorization, and Both DL nor SS card are proof of employment authorization. However a EAD or GC are documents to prove Employment Authorization to your Employer.

You can disagree, it doesn't change the fact you are wrong. DL and SS card suffice for I9 purpose. Also see note on top left hand corner of I9 form instructions.

Its SHOCKING to me that VJ whose posters are otherwise usually very vocal on "playing by the rules" seems to want to deviate from the rules in this instance. Rules are there for a reason people.

Anti-Discrimination Notice. It is illegal to discriminate against any individual (other than an alien not authorized to work in the U.S.) in hiring, discharging, or recruiting or referring for a fee because of that individual's national origin or citizenship status. It is illegal to discriminate against work eligible individuals. Employers CANNOT specify which document(s) they will accept from an employee. The refusal to hire an individual because of a future expiration date may also constitute illegal discrimination.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

not sure its me making the leap here Bob. You seem to have taken your train way off the tracks from your normal "law and order, go by the rule book stance. (see your recent posts in other threads)

Sergi, I'm very aware of my posts in other threads and I stand by them. I just want to know why everyone is acting like the OP's wife is being forced to present her Greencard when even the OP only said they asked for it?

Okay, so they don't understand the law then explain it to them. That's why I say it's making a big deal out of something that is possibly nothing.

I gave example of another illegal employement practice sexual exploitation of a worker which is a Illegal and singling out recent immigrants for more intensive scrutiny of employment documentatin. Both are illegal employment practices. ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL, right?

Sure anything illegal is illegal but your invoking "Sexual Exploitation" serves no purpose but to enrage the masses against what is at best a mistake and unless the OP explains further not even an illegal employment practice.

I guess if I want to enrage everyone against speeding I should compare it to raping children after all they're both illegal!

You also took the train off the tracks with your "hint" that if the employee in this circumstance doesn't cooperate with this illegal employment practice the employer could find another reason to let them go. That is retaliation yet another illegal employment practice.

My point was actually more towards the husband treating his adult wife like a child and sending repeated letters to the company's HR at their HQ. Sure her co-workers are probably none the wiser but when she's being evaluated for promotions do you think they're going to say "I really like how when she has an issue she cries to her hubby/daddy who then skips over the local office and writes a letter to HQ. I think that's a quality that I want in a team lead/supervisor/manager".

Further my point was valid, they can at anytime decide they have too many people doing the same job and determine who should be let go (downsized). Wouldn't a company be wise to hold on to the employees they can see as eventually advancing within the company? Not really retaliating there unless you want to say that if you complain enough you'll make it impossible to ever get fired.

This is why there are I9 rules to protect people from employers who knowingly or purposefully impose additional discriminatory practices. My guess is the employer is preparing for an I9 audit and in this case the employee is doing them a favor because if they find a memo asking for the Green Card after the DL and SS# have already been provided they will be dinged for it, or if they find that in addition to the DL and SS# they will be questioned on it.

Its extremely simple people, follow the I9 rules everyone is covered, deviate from the I9 rules and the employer faces fines and sanctions. The rules are clearly on the I9 form and the I9 HR Manual.

Again I'll say it, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ASKING FOR THE GREENCARD AND DEMANDING IT. The OP's own words (unless I missed it) only say it was asked for. The OP even said that for the I-9 a greedncard that is due to expire was used for the I-9 which leads me to believe that they are now looking to complete section 3 and simply update the I-9. So they make the mistake of thinking the best way to do this is to just confirm the original document has been extended/continued.

Why not assume that the employer is in err and gently offer to correct their misunderstanding? Is it more fun to turn it into a fight that never needs to happen?

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

. Employers CANNOT specify which document(s) they will accept from an employee.

Show me where the Op said she is being forced to show her greencard or she will lose her job.

So far he has only said that they are asking to see her Greencard.

[jjbandero 39]

Hi,

Just wanted to give a perspective on employment verification. I actually participated in my company's internal I-9 process a few years ago, and here's what I've learnt from the process:

1. The employer is obligated to verify employment, however, they cannot demand to see specific documents, only that the employee must provide sufficient documents as described in the I-9 instructions

2. The employer is obligated to make good faith efforts to ensure all employees are eligible to work in the US - good faith effort includes correctly documenting the expiration dates of immigration documents for re-verification purposes e.g. work visas, GC - otherwise the employer may be subject to penalty, the penalty may increase if the employer was found to be negligent in putting measures in place My link to the I-9 handbook

3. My company chose to use a reminder system that automatically generates a letter to be sent to the employee 90 days prior to the expiration of their documents so there is adequate time for the employee to provide additional documentation to show their continued eligibility to work.

It appears in OP's wife's case, the employer maybe doing a re-verification if her 2 year conditional GC, and since the GC was used to establish her eligibility initially, the employer is asking for the same document. However, I suspect all of this was not clearly communicated to OP's wife, what the employer should have done was to have in writing their re-verification policies and procedures so that there is transparency and expectations are clearly set out.

Cheers

Edited September 14, 2011 by jjbandero

[Sergi9 110]

Hi,

Just wanted to give a perspective on employment verification. I actually participated in my company's internal I-9 process a few years ago, and here's what I've learnt from the process:

1. The employer is obligated to verify employment, however, they cannot demand to see specific documents, only that the employee must provide sufficient documents as described in the I-9 instructions

2. The employer is obligated to make good faith efforts to ensure all employees are eligible to work in the US - good faith effort includes correctly documenting the expiration dates of immigration documents for re-verification purposes e.g. work visas, GC - otherwise the employer may be subject to penalty, the penalty may increase if the employer was found to be negligent in putting measures in place My link to the I-9 handbook

3. My company chose to use a reminder system that automatically generates a letter to be sent to the employee 90 days prior to the expiration of their documents so there is adequate time for the employee to provide additional documentation to show their continued eligibility to work.

It appears in OP's wife's case, the employer maybe doing a re-verification if her 2 year conditional GC, and since the GC was used to establish her eligibility initially, the employer is asking for the same document. However, I suspect all of this was not clearly communicated to OP's wife, what the employer should have done was to have in writing their re-verification policies and procedures so that there is transparency and expectations are clearly set out.

Cheers

here is the most recent manual :

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/m-274.pdf

She can do a new form with DL + SS or provide update in section 3 of new card. Either way its up to employee not employer which documents to provide.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

She can do a new form with DL + SS or provide update in section 3 of new card. Either way its up to employee not employer which documents to provide.

Sure she can but I'll ask again:

Why do you seem to think that the employer is forcing her to show her Greencard when even the OP only states "Wife's Employer Asking to See Her Greencard"?

I mean it's even the title of the thread!

Add to that this simple fact, she's from the Philippines where English while common is only the second language there. My wife has been in the US just shy of 2 years (only slightly shorter than the OP's wife) and she still doesn't always understand some of the nuances of our use of English. It's quite possible that some (or all) of her problems at her job are related to that. There have been times my wife didn't understand that a statement was more of a request than a requirement/demand simply because in the Philippines if it was worded the same way (in English) you were expected to comply.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Bob 4 Anna

[Sergi9 110]

I just want to know why everyone is acting like the OP's wife is being forced to present her Greencard when even the OP only said they asked for it?

Okay, so they don't understand the law then explain it to them. That's why I say it's making a big deal out of something that is possibly nothing.

Sure anything illegal is illegal but your invoking "Sexual Exploitation" serves no purpose but to enrage the masses against what is at best a mistake ...

(like the "illegal is illegal crowd enraging people against immigrant children brought here by parents? )

I guess if I want to enrage everyone against speeding I should compare it to raping children after all they're both illegal!

and unless the OP explains further not even an illegal employment practice.

What part of they cannot ask for 'specific" documents do you not understand?

My point was actually more towards the husband treating his adult wife like a child and sending repeated letters to the company's HR at their HQ. Sure her co-workers are probably none the wiser but when she's being evaluated for promotions do you think they're going to say "I really like how when she has an issue she cries to her hubby/daddy who then skips over the local office and writes a letter to HQ. I think that's a quality that I want in a team lead/supervisor/manager".

Who are we to judge his relationship with his wife we are her to help on immigration related matters right?

Further my point was valid, they can at anytime decide they have too many people doing the same job and determine who should be let go (downsized). Wouldn't a company be wise to hold on to the employees they can see as eventually advancing within the company?

Not really retaliating unless you want to say that if you complain enough you'll make it impossible to ever get fired.

Not really crossing the border illegally UNLESS YOU GET CAUGHT ! isn't it kinda uncomfortable when you straddle the fence like that?

Again I'll say it, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ASKING FOR THE GREENCARD AND DEMANDING IT. The OP's own words (unless I missed it) only say it was asked for. The OP even said that for the I-9 a greedncard that is due to expire was used for the I-9 which leads me to believe that they are now looking to complete section 3 and simply update the I-9. So they make the mistake of thinking the best way to do this is to just confirm the original document has been extended/continued.

Why not assume that the employer is in err and gently offer to correct their misunderstanding? Is it more fun to turn it into a fight that never needs to happen?

Yeah, I am sure the HR Guru wants the dishwasher to "educate" him/her on this kind of stuff and they will be real gracious about it too.

I just went through this non-sense with an idiot HR Person and I am the US Citizen and they kept asking me for different documents . . its a simple issue, read the form fill in the blanks

It doesn't matter whether they are asking or demanding.... if they want to fill out a new I9 with new docs they can.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Sergi9

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

(like the "illegal is illegal crowd enraging people against immigrant children brought here by parents? )

Again there go your amazing jumping abilities... How does that have anything to do with this issue?

What part of they cannot ask for 'specific" documents do you not understand?

What part of WE DON'T HAVE THE FULL CONTEXT OF THE SITUATION are you refusing to understand?

As I pointed out it's quite possible that it was only suggested she provide her new Greencard for the I-9 update and she took it out of context.

If my wife's HR person says, "Hey I see you Greencard is due to expire soon, would you mind bringing in your new one when you get it so we can update your I-9" are they evil criminals discriminating against her? She could easily say "I'll give you me SSN Card an Driver's License which meet the requirement of the I-9." and be done with it. The OP hasn't indicated that his wife's situation is any different that this.

Who are we to judge his relationship with his wife we are her to help on immigration related matters right?

I wasn't judging any one, every relationship works differently and I'm fine with that. I just report my observations.

Not really crossing the border illegally UNLESS YOU GET CAUGHT ! isn't it kinda uncomfortable when you straddle the fence like that?

Again I'm not straddling any fence, I merely pointed out that while you can't be fired for reporting discrimination directly if it's done in a manner that is excessive or puts you in a bad light (having your spouse do it in a manner that violates company policy of first reporting it locally and working up the ladder for example) it can surely have negative consequences at work.

If an employee is downsized because their problem resolution skills are insufficient for advancement within the company how is that illegal? Personally I don't want someone working with me who can't fix their own problems as it would be a drain on myself and those working with us.

Yeah, I am sure the HR Guru wants the dishwasher to "educate" him/her on this kind of stuff and they will be real gracious about it too.

Irrelevant, the law is the law. If the employee knows the law and asserts their rights under the law then it's tought if the "HR Guru"'s feelings get hurt. A true professional wouldn't take it personally.

I just went through this non-sense with an idiot HR Person and I am the US Citizen and they kept asking me for different documents . . its a simple issue, read the form fill in the blanks

I don't think I even need to respond to this bit but I wonder did your spouse write a letter to your employer's HQ or did you inform the HR Person of their error?

It doesn't matter whether they are asking or demanding.... if they want to fill out a new I9 with new docs they can.

When did I ever argue with this?

[Harsh_77 718]

http://www.nilc.org/dc_conf/flashdrive09/Worker-Rights/emp3_proving-work-auth.pdf

When and how do I have to show my work authorization to my employer?

Your employer must ask you to complete the I-9 Form within 3 days of beginning your job. The I-9

Form lists documents that you can show to establish your identity and employment eligibility. You the worker, not the employer, have the right to choose which of the listed documents you are going to show

the employer. It is unlawful for your employer to demand that you show a specific document only, or to

ask that you present more documents than the ones that are required.For example, your employer cannot

demand that you show a green card, if you have other documents listed on the I-9 Form showing that you

are authorized to work in the U.S. The employer might be engaging in a type of discrimination called

“document abuse” if the employer does not allow you to choose which documents to show. Talk to an

immigrant rights organization, a worker center, your union, or call the number below if you think that

your employer is breaking this law. You may also contact the Office of Special Counsel for Immigration

Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC) at 1-800-255-7688 or 1-800-237-2515 to report potential

discrimination by an employer. Note that if your employer is participating in E-Verify, you will be

required to provide your employer with your Social Security number and the document that you show to

establish identity must contain a photograph.

OK so what are the documents that show that OP's wife is legally allowed to work in US?

The 2 Docs she has provided are DL and SSN card.

I don't understand why ppl are making it big deal from minor thing as document abuse, I am guessing they are asking for her GC coz she has marked she is Perm Resd.

Is it not employers job to make sure all the employees are legally allowed to work?

[DEDixon 39]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but they aren't doing this because it was a 2 year card. They are asking all employees for their greencard every 2 years.

Maybe they are asking for the greencard, because it is simple. Provide this one document and they are done. I just want them to know that they can't ask for it.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

The 2 Docs she has provided are DL and SSN card.

I don't understand why ppl are making it big deal from minor thing as document abuse, I am guessing they are asking for her GC coz she has marked she is Perm Resd.

It hasn't even been established the the employer's HR department has either been offered legal alternatives or refused to accept them so no "Document Abuse" has been established.

[Harsh_77 718]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but they aren't doing this because it was a 2 year card. They are asking all employees for their greencard every 2 years.

Maybe they are asking for the greencard, because it is simple. Provide this one document and they are done. I just want them to know that they can't ask for it.

Well actually they can coz GC would be part of List A document, which would do 2 things in 1 shot, establish her id and authorize to work in US.

Else one would be required to Produce doc from List B and C.

[DEDixon 39]

Wow, YOU write letters to your wife's employer's headquarters? Don't you think it would be better if you taught her how to fight her own battles?

BTW, even if they don't downsize her I wouldn't expect her to have much of a future at this company.

What part of WE DON'T HAVE THE FULL CONTEXT OF THE SITUATION are you refusing to understand?

RIGHT BOB!

Well actually they can coz GC would be part of List A document, which would do 2 things in 1 shot, establish her id and authorize to work in US.

Else one would be required to Produce doc from List B and C.

wow, you didn't get it from previous posts that they can't ask which documents to see?

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but they aren't doing this because it was a 2 year card. They are asking all employees for their greencard every 2 years.

Maybe they are asking for the greencard, because it is simple. Provide this one document and they are done. I just want them to know that they can't ask for it.

That's a totally different story but...

You don't work there, your wife does. She's the one who has a beef with their system and honestly they don't even have to listen to anything to say to them.

If she has a problem with providing her Greencard then she should explain to the local HR employee that the Law says she can satisfy the requirement with her DL & SSN Card. If that fails then she should work her way up the chain of command.

If an employee files a complaint then there are laws that kick in to protect the employee. If an outsider files a complaint with the company even reading it is doing you a favor and nothing more.

I had a situation where there was some hinky stuff going on where my daughter worked and the only reason they gave me the time of day is because she was still a minor at the time.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Bob 4 Anna