Were Palestinians expelled or fled?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Another very interesting piece is "FDR Meets Ibn Saud" by William A. Eddy. The two leaders met secretly in 1945 and discussed Palestine and the question of a Jewish homeland there.

You can read it online:

http://www.ameu.org/uploads/FDR_IBNSAUD_2005.pdf

[luckytxn 2,264]

American education is lacking, When they teach history in school, they teach European history until about the 17th century, and suddenly, Europe and the rest of the world is forgotten, except for a few military campaigns by the US. Too bad. That was when European, and by extension, African and Asian history, just started getting interesting.

I spent quite a bit of time familiarizing myself with Vietnam's history in the mid 20th century, and for the last few years, I have been paying attention to the Middle East and North Africa.

Hang in there. There is a lot to be learned still from those civilizations, something the Europeans have forgotten post-Renaissance.

For sure. There are huge gaps. I have probably read up on everything Greek, Roman, especially their philosophies and battles. Everything having to do with Europe until I am just sick of rereading the same stuff. Of course I have read everything on Americana and especially the revolution and the civil war and even gone to almost all sites. Of course we are all versed on WW II and Vietnam but had to go and find everything I could on WW I and the Korean conflict on my own.

I am a big military buff and know and read any and everything on war and battles but found that most of the literature has to do with Europe, American so have for the past few years started to find and read about war and battles in Africa, Asia, and other areas. (Maybe even more fascinating) Reading these and I also tend then to find and read on the countries involved societies to learn more.

Have tried to read also on the Middle east but found I was looking at times from long ago and up to when the Major powers made their power plays in the regions for colonialism. Now I am wanting to start looking at the end of the colonialism to the present and that is why I am asking for advice on possible good reads. What I have read so far to start with is definitely one sided and biased toward Israelis and I hate reading just one sides opinions.

Also of course I have been reading up more on Asian history. I have found I may need to break Asia up into regions and read more thoroughly on the regions as Asia is too broad to encompass into one area.

I tend to have a lot of time on my hands when I am away from home and like to occupy my time reading and learning. (I also try my hand at writing)

[luckytxn 2,264]

Here are a few...

Edward Said

The Question of Palestine

Blaming the Victims: Spurious Scholarship and the Palestinian Question

Walid Khalidi

Before Their Diaspora: A Photographic History of the Palestinians

All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948

Sami Hadawi

Bitter Harvest: A Modern History of Palestine

Mazin Qumsiyeh

Popular Resistance in Palestine: A History of Hope and Empowerment

Thanks again. I will write these down and go to my usual haunts and see if any are in stock but doubtful. What they don't have I will come online and order some. Down to my last two books and need to go get more before I leave the house next Monday for the road.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Another very interesting piece is "FDR Meets Ibn Saud" by William A. Eddy. The two leaders met secretly in 1945 and discussed Palestine and the question of a Jewish homeland there.

You can read it online:

http://www.ameu.org/...BNSAUD_2005.pdf

Thanks for the free read. That makes my wife happy. I read something already on this meeting so hoping it isn't this but have saved it to my puter.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

They fled!

Now how do I get my check from the Zionist conspiracy folks?

[scandal 951]

Many thanks for the info. Awesome some will take the time to answer. And I have no problem if the books are a "hard read" I prefer books that takes time to read if they are "worth" it. I will hit my regular book stores and if I don't find I will order through amazon.

Yes I know to find a complete unbiased history is not possible. If an author is fascinated enough about a topic to write about it then a bias is created. Trying for years though to use the internet to find bits and pieces has made shown me no topic has appeared more likely to show bias. I am fully tired though to have found that the Zionist propaganda machine seems to have been so well in place that their view is considered actual history and fact.

By all means, continue your research and your reading. By all means explore the issues and history from all sides, and all perspectives. By all means search for researched and well-documented sources and avoid sources that smack of "propaganda" of any flavor. I wonder why you choose to stress strictly so-called Zionist propaganda? Do you really believe that only we Zionists are wont to cast history in our best light? Do you really think Palestinians don't do this? Do you think it's at all possible you've been sitting here in an echo chamber on this thread, filled with voices sympathetic to one line of thought? Does it occur to you that if the sources you're being offered are all in avid agreement with each other, then perhaps you're still not seeing all sides of this complex issue, but simply just one side yet again?

Here are some further items to give you pause for thought.

Try http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0017_0_17270.html

for a documented record of the continuous Jewish presence in Safed - a town in northern Galilee - dating to at least the Crusades if not earlier. Safed has a long history - centuries upon centuries - of a thriving community of Jews - Kaballists, mystics, merchants, tradesmen - who got along quite well with their Arab and Christian neighbors, for the most part. Similar Jewish communities have existed throughout the land in Tiberias, Jerusalem, Hebron and other cities. Speaking of Hebron, it too was settled by Jews and Arabs throughout the centuries in relative peace and good neighborly relations. That is, of course, until the massacres of 1929. Massacres of Jews by Arabs which took place long before Irgun, Begin, Aliyah Bet, Dir Yassin, or the founding of Israel in 1948. While 67 Jews were murdered by Arabs, it is also the case that 19 Arab families courageously hid and saved Jews in the Hebron pogrom. Our two peoples can get along. History does go back a long way. And it is convoluted and opaque.

When we Jews talk of our long lasting connection to the land, this is what we mean. Though we have lived in forced Diaspora since Roman times we have always maintained a presence from the days of Massada until today, and we have always considered it to be the homeland of the Jewish people. The 19th century reawakening of Zionism in the wake of European antisemitism was just that - a re-awakening of a long-held aspiration to return home.

Israel is, was and will be forever more the homeland of the Jewish people. This is not propaganda. It is our culture, our history, our identity.

At the very same time it is also a historical fact that many other peoples have lived in the land. From ancient times Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Mamlukes, Crusaders, Ottomans, British have held sway in the land. A continuous presence of Muslims and Christians has made their home there throughout the same centuries and these people, the Palestinians, have an equal and legitimate claim to the territory. So, we have two peoples on one small piece of land. What to do?

The formula that has been espoused by most seeking peace is a two-state solution. I firmly believe that this is the moral, just and surest way to resolve the dispute. I disagree and criticize my fellow Jews who don't want a two-state solution but who prefer to have Israel control all the land through the ongoing occupation of the West Bank and the settlement policy. I think this is harmful to Israel's best interests and essentially an immoral stance. However, I ALSO condemn those in the Palestinian community who do not seek a negotiated peace culminating in a two-state solution. Those who want all the land, at the expense of Israel. Those who deny Israel's right to exist and the Jewish people's legitimate claim to a homeland in Israel, alongside a Palestinian homeland. In contrast, I welcome Palestinians who are interested in a moderate and peaceful dialog aimed at a lasting permanent solution, side by side with Israel.

Ask yourself whether your interlocutors here are the former or the latter. I have seen scant evidence of recognition of the basic justice of Israel's legitimacy in these threads. I see only condemnation of Israel and everything associated with it. Where are the Palestinian moderates we are to make peace with? I know they exist. But you wouldn't know it from reading threads here.

Look, I am fully prepared to hear criticism of Israeli government policies, specific individuals or actions. That's fair game. Israel is by no means perfect and criticism by those seeking to be constructive is welcome. Just as criticism of Hamas and Fatah and the various wings and factions of Palestinian leadership is entirely fair game as well. What's not fair game is to deny that Israel has any legitimacy at all. That's no more fair than denying the legitimacy of Palestinian self determination. Two peoples, two states.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

You must be thinking of the desert. But much of Palestine is not desert - it's a breadbasket. Jenin, Tulkarm, Nablus, Bethlehem and Hebron are well-known for their rich farmlands. Jaffa was famous for its orange groves long before the Zionists arrived. Palestine has been cultivated intensively and continuously for millennia - producing all sorts of fruits, vegetables and other food crops. And agriculture is still the main component of the Palestinian economy.

At least two, perhaps eight millennia. Wine production was a major part of the agricultural output in the time of Jesus.

The wine production ceased completely during the Arab conquest starting in the 8th C. Islamic faith prohibits the consumption of alcohol. Only during the Crusades the wine production was resumed for a brief time (12th - 13th C).

If the conflict was over Prohibition, that would be understandable.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[luckytxn 2,264]

By all means, continue your research and your reading. By all means explore the issues and history from all sides, and all perspectives. By all means search for researched and well-documented sources and avoid sources that smack of "propaganda" of any flavor. I wonder why you choose to stress strictly so-called Zionist propaganda? Do you really believe that only we Zionists are wont to cast history in our best light? Do you really think Palestinians don't do this? Do you think it's at all possible you've been sitting here in an echo chamber on this thread, filled with voices sympathetic to one line of thought? Does it occur to you that if the sources you're being offered are all in avid agreement with each other, then perhaps you're still not seeing all sides of this complex issue, but simply just one side yet again?

Here are some further items to give you pause for thought.

Try http://www.jewishvir...17_0_17270.html

for a documented record of the continuous Jewish presence in Safed - a town in northern Galilee - dating to at least the Crusades if not earlier. Safed has a long history - centuries upon centuries - of a thriving community of Jews - Kaballists, mystics, merchants, tradesmen - who got along quite well with their Arab and Christian neighbors, for the most part. Similar Jewish communities have existed throughout the land in Tiberias, Jerusalem, Hebron and other cities. Speaking of Hebron, it too was settled by Jews and Arabs throughout the centuries in relative peace and good neighborly relations. That is, of course, until the massacres of 1929. Massacres of Jews by Arabs which took place long before Irgun, Begin, Aliyah Bet, Dir Yassin, or the founding of Israel in 1948. While 67 Jews were murdered by Arabs, it is also the case that 19 Arab families courageously hid and saved Jews in the Hebron pogrom. Our two peoples can get along. History does go back a long way. And it is convoluted and opaque.

When we Jews talk of our long lasting connection to the land, this is what we mean. Though we have lived in forced Diaspora since Roman times we have always maintained a presence from the days of Massada until today, and we have always considered it to be the homeland of the Jewish people. The 19th century reawakening of Zionism in the wake of European antisemitism was just that - a re-awakening of a long-held aspiration to return home.

Israel is, was and will be forever more the homeland of the Jewish people. This is not propaganda. It is our culture, our history, our identity.

At the very same time it is also a historical fact that many other peoples have lived in the land. From ancient times Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Mamlukes, Crusaders, Ottomans, British have held sway in the land. A continuous presence of Muslims and Christians has made their home there throughout the same centuries and these people, the Palestinians, have an equal and legitimate claim to the territory. So, we have two peoples on one small piece of land. What to do?

The formula that has been espoused by most seeking peace is a two-state solution. I firmly believe that this is the moral, just and surest way to resolve the dispute. I disagree and criticize my fellow Jews who don't want a two-state solution but who prefer to have Israel control all the land through the ongoing occupation of the West Bank and the settlement policy. I think this is harmful to Israel's best interests and essentially an immoral stance. However, I ALSO condemn those in the Palestinian community who do not seek a negotiated peace culminating in a two-state solution. Those who want all the land, at the expense of Israel. Those who deny Israel's right to exist and the Jewish people's legitimate claim to a homeland in Israel, alongside a Palestinian homeland. In contrast, I welcome Palestinians who are interested in a moderate and peaceful dialog aimed at a lasting permanent solution, side by side with Israel.

Ask yourself whether your interlocutors here are the former or the latter. I have seen scant evidence of recognition of the basic justice of Israel's legitimacy in these threads. I see only condemnation of Israel and everything associated with it. Where are the Palestinian moderates we are to make peace with? I know they exist. But you wouldn't know it from reading threads here.

Look, I am fully prepared to hear criticism of Israeli government policies, specific individuals or actions. That's fair game. Israel is by no means perfect and criticism by those seeking to be constructive is welcome. Just as criticism of Hamas and Fatah and the various wings and factions of Palestinian leadership is entirely fair game as well. What's not fair game is to deny that Israel has any legitimacy at all. That's no more fair than denying the legitimacy of Palestinian self determination. Two peoples, two states.

By all means give me some suggested reading also. I also understand Jews have lived also in the land for centuries and have had homes there. The Jews were also in history also expelled. I know all this as most literature has told me this and most all media tells me this. I think I am allowed to read and try to understand both sides. I go to my usual bookstores and all I can find is books telling me the Zionists struggles and persecutions. Is it wrong to ask for another sides struggles?

I ask what I knew to be what on the surface is a simple question but know to be very complicated. I am so far removed from the equation that no matter how much I read and try to understand I will never fully comprehend. It is very nice that you wish for there to be a two state solution and from what little I know that seems unworkable so I want to try to understand more.

I personally don't think anything will bring peace in that region as long as Israel is allowed to stand but of course know that Israel will not go away ever. I also know that Israel would not have survived if my country did not come to its aid in the past. My country then to me anyway is a big reason for this constant unrest. I have made no secret of wanting the U.S. out of the affairs of the world and all our troops brought home NOW. No more aid to Israel or any country outside of our own backyard. It is time for us to withdraw from the worlds stage and try to heal ourselves and become strong again. If any country wants to be our friends then they do so but just not forced to by the end of a gun or monetarily. And yes I know that none of this will happen as both major parties will continue on the road we are on.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

At least two, perhaps eight millennia. Wine production was a major part of the agricultural output in the time of Jesus.

If the conflict was over Prohibition, that would be understandable.

Palestine is still famous for its vineyards - Hebron is especially known for its grape production. Palestinians consume them as table grapes, and some are made into raisins, jam or molasses.

As far as the alcohol issue... yes, drinking is forbidden to Muslims. However, Palestine has historically had a diverse society including Muslims, Christian and Jews. Palestinian Christians produce a number of types of beer at the Taybeh microbrewery not far from Ramallah (they also produce a non-alcoholic version.)

And wine and brandy are produced at the Cremisan winery near Bethlehem (built in the 1800s, now run by Italian Selesian fathers using a Palestinian workforce.)

Sadly, illegal Israeli settlements have been built up on either side of this historical treasure, with The Wall being built to annex those settlements into Israel "proper." So this winery will likely soon be cut off from its Palestinian workers, and the property seized as part of Israel. The Vatican has intervened to try to prevent that, but the legal issue has not yet been determined in Israeli courts. Although it is a Palestinian product produced in the West Bank, the Israeli government has insisted that the wine be labeled as a product of Israel, or it will not allow the wine to be exported.

Anyway, due to the various cultural groups in Palestine, attitudes are rather more relaxed than in Saudi Arabia. Alcohol is readily available at restaurants and even liquor stores in Ramallah and Bethlehem, and even small villages with a significant Christian population usually have a beer or wine shop. And yes, there are some Palestinian Muslims who have been known to make a "beer run" to such shops

[luckytxn 2,264]

I like beer.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Wait. Muslims can't drink.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

By all means give me some suggested reading also. I also understand Jews have lived also in the land for centuries and have had homes there. The Jews were also in history also expelled. I know all this as most literature has told me this and most all media tells me this. I think I am allowed to read and try to understand both sides. I go to my usual bookstores and all I can find is books telling me the Zionists struggles and persecutions. Is it wrong to ask for another sides struggles?

I ask what I knew to be what on the surface is a simple question but know to be very complicated. I am so far removed from the equation that no matter how much I read and try to understand I will never fully comprehend. It is very nice that you wish for there to be a two state solution and from what little I know that seems unworkable so I want to try to understand more.

I personally don't think anything will bring peace in that region as long as Israel is allowed to stand but of course know that Israel will not go away ever. I also know that Israel would not have survived if my country did not come to its aid in the past. My country then to me anyway is a big reason for this constant unrest. I have made no secret of wanting the U.S. out of the affairs of the world and all our troops brought home NOW. No more aid to Israel or any country outside of our own backyard. It is time for us to withdraw from the worlds stage and try to heal ourselves and become strong again. If any country wants to be our friends then they do so but just not forced to by the end of a gun or monetarily. And yes I know that none of this will happen as both major parties will continue on the road we are on.

The Israeli side of the story has dominated coverage of the conflict in mainstream American media. There are few adult Americans who cannot recite Israel's talking points from memory. But there are two sides to the story, and the Palestinian side has not been given much attention.

The American political capital and the pile of cash from American taxpayers that has been spent in relation to this conflict is substantial. It is not only the right of Americans to ask questions and seek knowledge about what exactly is going on - and what exactly is being supported with their money and their nation's influence - but it is in their own interests to do so.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The Israeli side of the story has dominated coverage of the conflict in mainstream American media. There are few adult Americans who cannot recite Israel's talking points from memory. But there are two sides to the story, and the Palestinian side has not been given much attention.

The American political capital and the pile of cash from American taxpayers that has been spent in relation to this conflict is substantial. It is not only the right of Americans to ask questions and seek knowledge about what exactly is going on - and what exactly is being supported with their money and their nation's influence - but it is in their own interests to do so.

Well, the hardline Israeli version is out there, reinforced by the American media that follows Netanyahu like lapdogs. However, the more moderate version that perhaps a near plurality of Israelis believe doesn't.

[luckytxn 2,264]

The Israeli side of the story has dominated coverage of the conflict in mainstream American media. There are few adult Americans who cannot recite Israel's talking points from memory. But there are two sides to the story, and the Palestinian side has not been given much attention.

The American political capital and the pile of cash from American taxpayers that has been spent in relation to this conflict is substantial. It is not only the right of Americans to ask questions and seek knowledge about what exactly is going on - and what exactly is being supported with their money and their nation's influence - but it is in their own interests to do so.

I agree totally. I can't ever remember not hearing Israel's side. It is ridiculous for anyone to try to criticize me for wanting to read up and probe deeper both sides. I know the Israel talking points and only now hear the Palestinian talking points and want to know more. Personally it doesn't make any difference that I do so but still want to. And also to be fair my mind may still lean heavily toward Israel's side after probing but I see no harm in probing. Everyone should look deeper and at both sides. Our country has invested a lot in this.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Well, the hardline Israeli version is out there, reinforced by the American media that follows Netanyahu like lapdogs. However, the more moderate version that perhaps a near plurality of Israelis believe doesn't.

The American media bases its reporting on official Israeli sources - which are the government and the IDF. Lip-service will always be given to the "two-state solution," but it has become a meaningless buzz word sort of like "freedom" and "democracy."

There are a lot of Israelis who agree that Israel needs to end the occupation. But the pro-settler parties (including Likud, Netanyahu's party) are in firm control of the government, and in fact are setting much of its policies.

The settlers don't want an end to the occupation until they have completed their mission - which is to transform the little that's left of Palestine into the State of Israel (but without transforming the millions of Palestinians who live there into Israelis, of course - the Palestinans are to be squeezed out.) Once Palestine and the Palestinians are gone, then there can be peace and an end to the occupation.