Were Palestinians expelled or fled?

[luckytxn 2,264]

?

I had also heard and read that the Arabs refused the Palestinians to return home after the war by force if needed. Of course it could be just another bias and heresy but have read if several times.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Your family has more money than God (your words, not mine).

You can buy a piece of land anywhere in the world. Why would you go back to the barren dust bowl of parched farmland that is Palestine where nothing grows without a human putting it there and an industrial-strength sprinkler system big enough to drain the Sea of Galilee?

Nothing grows in Palestine without irrigation ?

This is farmland near Jenin, looking out from my husband's family home:

Almost none of these fields are irrigated. They are growing oranges, grapes, cabbages, olive trees, all sorts of things. Sure, there are deserts in Palestine, but much of the land is agricultural and it is being intensively farmed - almost entirely without added irrigation.

And as far as draining the Sea of Galilee - well, guess who's doing that

http://www.forward.com/articles/127437/

http://www.iasps.org/nbn/nbn381.htm

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yes you have. It is also why I ask your opinion.

May I make a suggestion, too?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I appreciate your taking the time to help me understand. I would like some links or places to see this myself and read. I have looked and read but it always seems biased. I have read about the laws denying them to return to their property though but would like to see where they had a design beforehand to get them out either by force or other means. If it was all by design so there would be a majority of Jews in Israel then I can see more clearly the problem. If they decided to just deny them the return after a brutal war and thought that they were allowing an enemy to come into their mist as I have also read then still a problem. Many Muslims did stay and are citizens of Israel and even in their political system.

What I am trying to find out is what a solution could be. Is it the right of return and retrieve their old land and homes enough? Foregoing that will monetary compensation be enough? Is it that Israel have to cease to exist and all Jews leave? I am not trying to have a argument here as I am clueless pretty much on the topic even though I have read a lot and of both sides.

If you could point to more that I can read that would help enlighten me is good. God bless and thanks for replying.

I have to sleep now, but I will be back in the morning to respond - I have lots on this

[luckytxn 2,264]

May I make a suggestion, too?

Of course.

[luckytxn 2,264]

I have to sleep now, but I will be back in the morning to respond - I have lots on this

Understand. I have to also. By afternoon I will be home with my babe and my little piece of paradise.

Also if the thread gets locked please if you have time send me by message. Night.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I recommend to you a must read classic on the subject titled, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East", by David Fromkin. It covers the period from 1914 to 1922, just after WWI, and examines the failures that brought the situation in the ME to where it is now.

It's simply not possible to grasp the complexities by starting at 1948, as so many seem to want to do. It's essential to have a wider view of how the region was developed as the spoils of war after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

It's an intense read, but a very good one. The author is Jewish, but that matters not at all. His scholarship is commendable.

Of course.

[luckytxn 2,264]

I recommend to you a must read classic on the subject titled, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East", by David Fromkin. It covers the period from 1914 to 1922, just after WWI, and examines the failures that brought the situation in the ME to where it is now.

It's simply not possible to grasp the complexities by starting at 1948, as so many seem to want to do. It's essential to have a wider view of how the region was developed as the spoils of war after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

It's an intense read, but a very good one. The author is Jewish, but that matters not at all. His scholarship is commendable.

Definitely will look for and find it and read it. Hope it isn't as huge as the Rise and fall of the Roman Empire. That gem took me a couple of weeks to read.

[luckytxn 2,264]

I recommend to you a must read classic on the subject titled, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East", by David Fromkin. It covers the period from 1914 to 1922, just after WWI, and examines the failures that brought the situation in the ME to where it is now.

It's simply not possible to grasp the complexities by starting at 1948, as so many seem to want to do. It's essential to have a wider view of how the region was developed as the spoils of war after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

It's an intense read, but a very good one. The author is Jewish, but that matters not at all. His scholarship is commendable.

Strangely enough I have read a lot of the history of the middle east but fro some reason never the fall after the Ottoman empire. It would probably be better to read it than the bits and pieces I read now. Just knew the Ottomans chose the wrong side to back in the great war.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I would like to say one more thing. I did read that many were asked to leave and told they would be allowed to return after Israel is destroyed by Arab forces. (Not sure if Arab is the right word as they were not Saudi). I have never found any proof that this has happened except heresy. I also read once that Israel had did as you said and used radio in the Palestinian language to urge them to leave. Is there somewhere of proof they did this?

(I will answer this one first and then go back to your earlier question about the discussions of "transfer" ideas.)

Here are a few of the sources on the reports of Zionists using Arabic language broadcasts to urge the Palestinian population to flee:

* Erskine Childers, “The Wordless Wish: From Citizens to Refugees,” The Transformation of Palestine, 1971

Childers says Haganah radio was broadcasting warnings in Arabic, promising Arabs in Haifa safe escort to “Arab territory” and “hinted at terrible consequences if their warnings were disregarded.”

* Arthur Koestler, Promise and Fulfilment: Palestine 1917-1949 (1949)

Koestler (an avowed supporter of the Haganah,) excerpting the diary he kept while living in Israel in 1948, writes that Haganah trucks mounted with loudspeakers drove around broadcasting in Arabic with scary stories of death and devastation to come, advising Palestinians to get out while they could because the roads out were open, and even offering an escort to “Arab territory.”

* Nathan Chofshi, Jewish Newsletter, New York, February 9, 1959

Chofshi makes a reference to the tactic:

If Rabbi Kaplan really wanted to know what happened, we old Jewish settlers in Palestine who witnessed the fight could tell him how and in what manner we, Jews, forced the Arabs to leave cities and villages... some of them were driven out by force of arms; others were made to leave by deceit, lying and false promises. It is enough to cite the cities of Jaffa, Lydda, Ramleh, Beersheba, Acre from among numberless others.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I appreciate your taking the time to help me understand. I would like some links or places to see this myself and read. I have looked and read but it always seems biased. I have read about the laws denying them to return to their property though but would like to see where they had a design beforehand to get them out either by force or other means. If it was all by design so there would be a majority of Jews in Israel then I can see more clearly the problem. If they decided to just deny them the return after a brutal war and thought that they were allowing an enemy to come into their mist as I have also read then still a problem. Many Muslims did stay and are citizens of Israel and even in their political system.

What I am trying to find out is what a solution could be. Is it the right of return and retrieve their old land and homes enough? Foregoing that will monetary compensation be enough? Is it that Israel have to cease to exist and all Jews leave? I am not trying to have a argument here as I am clueless pretty much on the topic even though I have read a lot and of both sides.

If you could point to more that I can read that would help enlighten me is good. God bless and thanks for replying.

Nur Masalha (a Palestinian Israeli) has done the most extensive documentation of the Zionists' discussions of the "transfer concept" in his ground-breaking 1992 work, The Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of 'Transfer' in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948. Based on his research of newly declassified material from Israeli archives, Masalha showed that transfer was an "integral" and continuous part of the Zionist plan, from Herzl to Rabin.

Jewish Israeli historian Benny Morris did similar research, and many quotes are included in his Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1999. These are just a few of the statements made by Zionist leaders:

"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly.”

- Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, 1895

(p. 21-22)

"We must continually raise the demand that our land be returned to our possession... If there are other inhabitants there, they must be transferred to some other place. We must take over the land. We have a great and nobler ideal than preserving several hundred thousands of Arab fellahin."

- Menachem Ussishkin (Chairman of the Jewish National Fund, President of the 20th Zionist Congress, Permanent President of World Zionist Organization's Zionist Action Committee, and a member of the Jewish Agency Executive,) April 28, 1930

(p. 141)

“The compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we had never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples… We are given an opportunity which we never dared dream of in our wildest imaginings.”

- David Ben-Gurion, 1937

(p. 142)

"...In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin…it is important that this plan comes from the Commission and not from us... Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale. You must remember, that this system embodies an important humane and Zionist idea, to transfer parts of a people to their country and to settle empty lands. We believe that this action will also bring us closer to an agreement with the Arabs."

- David Ben-Gurion, August 7, 1937, in statement to the Zionist Assembly

(p. 143)

“With compulsory transfer we have vast areas…I support compulsory transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it…. “

- David Ben-Gurion, 1937

(p. 144)

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

It's simply not possible to grasp the complexities by starting at 1948, as so many seem to want to do. It's essential to have a wider view of how the region was developed as the spoils of war after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

It's an intense read, but a very good one. The author is Jewish, but that matters not at all. His scholarship is commendable.

Exactly. History did not begin in 1948.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's not a thin read by any means, but it's pretty comprehensive and your knowledge base will increase substantially as a benefit.

Definitely will look for and find it and read it. Hope it isn't as huge as the Rise and fall of the Roman Empire. That gem took me a couple of weeks to read.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Exactly. History did not begin in 1948.

Yes, but the problem with message boards is that few are like luckytxn, wanting to get a relatively unbiased view of any historical progression, because that's what history is, a progression, not a point in time. Unfortunately, a completely unbiased view is never possible. Historians lament it, but we understand it.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Yes, but the problem with message boards is that few are like luckytxn, wanting to get a relatively unbiased view of any historical progression, because that's what history is, a progression, not a point in time. Unfortunately, a completely unbiased view is never possible. Historians lament it, but we understand it.

I think there are also a lot of people who don't feel especially comfortable posting in the threads, due to several factors. But I believe there are quite a few reading these threads who do not have a personal, emotional involvement with the conflict, yet are curious and would honestly like to get more understanding of "what in the hell is going on over there." The subject has not been objectively (much less comprehensively) covered in most mainstream American media, and more people are beginning to realize that they have been offered only limited information based on Israel's side of the story. It is always wise to seek out knowledge on one's own.