Were Palestinians expelled or fled?

[mawilson 2,133]

I bet it was this part that chapped your azz:

“Make the enemy and the oppressor pay; that is how we Arabs wage war. Amends should be made by the criminal, not by the innocent bystander. What injury have Arabs done to the Jews of Europe? It is the ‘Christian’ Germans who stole their homes and lives. Let the Germans pay.”

But that's not how we wage war

When we get attacked by Islamic terrorists from Saudi Arabia, we attack Iraq.

When our main security threat is Pakistan, we invade Afghanistan.

[Captain Oates 911]

If the USA had really wanted to help, they could have accelerated the move of the Palestinians to Minnesota and paid for it and set them up.

This would have been far cheaper than arming the Israelis for hundreds of years and would have extended the reach of 'Our allies' far closer to the oil and secured the canal

I am sure this isn't all about Israeli oranges

[Dan and Judy 614]

Exactly. And the Saudi king made the completely logical and reasonable argument that criminals should be the ones who are punished for their crimes, not innocent people who had nothing to do with those crimes.

This one is harder to assess, as FDR died so soon afterwards. No real way to know what FDR had decided.

In considering helping the Jews to settle in Palestine, Roosevelt was going against his Chief of Staff, General Marshall and most of the career diplomats at the state department. He would have been well versed on the arguments for and against it and he would have been aware of Saud's general position on the matter before the meeting. Contrary to the Authors conclusions, FDR was probably working

hand in glove on this one with Churchill.

[웃 910]

Palace tiny inns, lol

[scandal 951]

By all means give me some suggested reading also. I also understand Jews have lived also in the land for centuries and have had homes there. The Jews were also in history also expelled. I know all this as most literature has told me this and most all media tells me this. I think I am allowed to read and try to understand both sides. I go to my usual bookstores and all I can find is books telling me the Zionists struggles and persecutions. Is it wrong to ask for another sides struggles?

I ask what I knew to be what on the surface is a simple question but know to be very complicated. I am so far removed from the equation that no matter how much I read and try to understand I will never fully comprehend. It is very nice that you wish for there to be a two state solution and from what little I know that seems unworkable so I want to try to understand more.

I personally don't think anything will bring peace in that region as long as Israel is allowed to stand but of course know that Israel will not go away ever. I also know that Israel would not have survived if my country did not come to its aid in the past. My country then to me anyway is a big reason for this constant unrest. I have made no secret of wanting the U.S. out of the affairs of the world and all our troops brought home NOW. No more aid to Israel or any country outside of our own backyard. It is time for us to withdraw from the worlds stage and try to heal ourselves and become strong again. If any country wants to be our friends then they do so but just not forced to by the end of a gun or monetarily. And yes I know that none of this will happen as both major parties will continue on the road we are on.

Sure, getting rid of Israel will, by definition, end the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. It won't end any of the other struggles in the Middle East: Shiite/Sunni, Kurd/Arab, Farsi/Arab, etc. There's a tendency to believe that Israel/Palestine IS the Middle East dispute. Hardly.

Moreover, that's simplistic. You could get rid of Palestine and also end the Israeli/Palestinian dispute. You could get rid of any side in an argument and "win" the argument. That's usually neither feasible or desirable. I'd like to see Al Quaida completely annihilated, for example, but I don't call for the destruction of any one of the world's states or charter UN members. Israel included. The path to peace must come through diplomacy and negotiation. It must come from both sides realizing they have more to gain from a positive relationship with each other than from continued violence.

Here's a book you may want to put on your reading list:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Voice-Israel-Fighting-Survival/dp/0230112749/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315676598&sr=8-1

It's written by Jeremy Ben Ami, the founder of J-Street - the alternative Jewish lobby to AIPAC.

It's a good reflection on current Israeli/American-Jewish relations, and the influence of the "8 percent" minority of right-wing American Jews on community opinion. Here are some reviews:

"A New Voice for Israel is a gripping family story, a shrewd analysis of American and Mideast politics and a rousing call to action. Most of all it is a book animated by deep love of Israel. I defy anyone to read it with an open mind and believe otherwise."—Peter Beinart, Senior Political Writer, The Daily Beast

“The author convincingly establishes his case that a two-state solution may be the only way to preserve Israel as a democratic homeland for the Jews…Certain to provoke strong reactions from supporters and detractors, this is a must-read for anyone with a stake—or even an interest—in this difficult issue.”--Kirkus

“Argues for nuance rather than rigidity… Most important, Ben-Ami rejects the luxury of pessimism, the laziness of giving up on Israeli-Palestinian peace. His idealism consists not in idealizing Israel (or vilifying it) but of working to make it a better place.”—Gershom Gorenberg, The American Prospect

"Jeremy Ben-Ami has articulated a clear-sighted, important argument for why it is time to rewrite the 'rulebook' that governs the conversation on Israel. Time is running out on a two-state solution. Ben-Ami issues a clarion call for more focused, determined U.S. efforts to promote peace between Israel and the Palestinians before it is no longer possible. A refreshing, must read for anyone who wants to understand the dilemmas facing American Jewry as it wrestles with what its role should be in Israel’s future.”--Janine Zacharia, former Jerusalem Bureau Chief, Washington Post

"A New Voice for Israel is a must-read for every Jew who, like me, struggles with balancing her devotion to the state of Israel with her moral and political values. Before being inspired by Mr. Ben-Ami's example, I had become one of his ‘Generation Oy,’ my discomfort with right-wing Israeli governments and even more conservative American Jewish organizations alienating me from the country itself. Jeremy Ben-Ami has provided me with a blueprint on how to be a Zionist in the twenty-first century, without compromising my commitment to human rights and democratic values."--Ayelet Waldman, author of Red Hook Road and Bad Mother

"This seamless blend of Israeli history, American/Jewish politics, family memoir, and J Street's vision culminates in a rousing call for change in the U.S. approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A New Voice for Israel is both a compelling personal narrative and a must read for all who care about peace and security in the Middle East."--Letty Cottin Pogrebin, former president, Americans for Peace Now and author of Deborah, Golda and Me

“Ben-Ami speaks with honesty and trenchancy about how American Jews think, hope, and organize. He shows why a democratic Israel needs peace, indeed, that democracy is a peace process without end. A New Voice For Israel, in its disarmingly truthfulness, explains why J Street is not only changing Americans politics but Jewish identity as well.”—Bernard Avishai, the author of The Hebrew Republic

[Sofiyya 1,687]

FRIDAY, AUG 26, 2011 08:30 ET

Congressional tourists avoid apartheid in Israel

As a Palestinian member of the Knesset, I know American lawmakers aren't being shown the reality of life here

BY AHMAD TIBI

Americans, do you know where your member of Congress is?

He or she may well be visiting Israel right now. In fact, 81 members of the House of Representatives -- nearly 20 percent of the whole body -- are expected here this month, according to new reports. If challenged, the representatives (numbering 55 Republicans and 26 Democrats) are likely to say a few words about looking for business opportunities good for their constituents or the need to provide for the security of Israel, which has cost American taxpayers billions of dollars. That's their business and yours. 
 


As a member of the Israeli Knesset, I am concerned that they're on a propaganda tour run by an affiliate arm of AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which bills itself as "America's leading pro-Israel lobby," yet has helped stymie Palestinian freedom aspirations for decades. Yes, the members will have a token meeting or two with officials of the Palestinian Authority, but they certainly are not going to learn of the discrimination and occupation that the state of Israel imposes on the Palestinian people in its midst.
 


The real story, tweeted by one wit, is whether any member of Congress would have accepted a trip paid for 20 years ago by an Anglo-Boer lobby-affiliated organization seeking to put a positive shine on apartheid South Africa. The Rev. Jesse Jackson, a leader in the anti-apartheid movement, certainly would not have taken a propaganda junket to legitimize whites-only neighborhoods.

Yet his son, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., has visited here, where ethnic-religious discrimination is written into law. I dare say, Jackson heard very little about the more than 35 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. I doubt Israeli officials volunteered information about the new legislation passed by the Knesset that subjects anyone who calls for a boycott of companies colonizing the West Bank and East Jerusalem to financial damages. 


As a member of Israel's large Palestinian national minority, I find Jackson's participation, along with five other members of the Black Caucus especially disappointing. As for delegation leaders Rep. Eric Cantor and Rep. Steny Hoyer, their shilling for Israel is business as usual. They've never expressed any alarm regarding Jewish settlers subjugating Palestinians, and I don't expect them to start now.

But I do expect Jackson and the other members of the caucus (other than Rep. Allen West, advocate of torturing Arabs) to reject colonization and racial discrimination. Their complacency in the face of modern-day colonization and their adoption of hard-line AIPAC positions stand in stark contrast to the beliefs of many Americans I have met who believe wholeheartedly that it is wrong for Israel to discriminate against Palestinians.

The visitors will be meeting with opposition parties in the Jewish state, but none of them -- not a single one -- is scheduled to meet with Palestinian members of the Knesset even though our existence is often highlighted when Israel's defenders seek to refute charges that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel does allow its Palestinian citizens to vote -- bully for them (this is the 21st century) -- but its commitment to discriminate against Palestinians is explicit and growing.

The Knesset recently passed legislation allowing communities in the Galilee and Negev to discriminate against would-be residents on cultural grounds, a euphemism that will permit anti-Palestinian discriminatory housing to proceed. Legislation is currently being considered that would strike Arabic as an official language of the state. Many Knesset members and a disturbing percentage of Israel's Jewish population regard us as little more than a fifth column in their midst.
 


As for Israel's policies in the occupied Palestinian territories, these are certainly reminiscent of apartheid. There is a segregationist legal system operating there -- one for Jewish settlers and a harsh, discriminatory one for colonized Palestinians. There are roads in the West Bank where local Palestinians are prohibited while Jewish settlers can travel unimpeded. That's apartheid, in my book. But this reality is ignored by the visiting members of Congress who seem incapable of recognizing Israel's discriminatory practices, much less asking hard questions about Israel's actions.

And, at this point, that's all I ask: If congressional representatives are going to visit my country they should strive to get a full view and not simply disregard the rampant discrimination Israel practices against its Palestinian minority and against the Palestinians of the occupied territories. They should visit Jerusalem on those days when Palestinian men under 50 are prohibited from praying at the al-Aqsa mosque. I could take them personally to my hometown and the neighboring Jewish community where they will see the discriminatory infrastructure gap that saddles Palestinian children with disadvantages that nearby Jewish children never face.

What we need from the members of Congress, and especially the members of the Congressional Black Caucus, are public statements from our American visitors expressing grave reservations about Israel's oppressive treatment of Palestinians in the territories and Israel. 


I've been advised such words would be political suicide. If true, if speaking for equality and non-discrimination is now political suicide, then America's problems are even bigger than the recent debt debacle fomented by many of the Republican representatives now visiting Israel.


I hope the members of Congress will reconsider and reject the outrageous view that the United States should veto Palestinian statehood and freedom at the United Nations next month. The United States is totally out of sync with the rest of the world on this matter. The U.S. should act as an enlightened leader rather than appearing like a colonizing power in repeatedly backing Israel's determination to postpone Palestinian freedom. That's the message our visitors from Washington need to take home from their summer vacation.


Ahmad Tibi is deputy speaker of the Israeli Parliament.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Sofiyya

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

FRIDAY, AUG 26, 2011 08:30 ET

Congressional tourists avoid apartheid in Israel

Well, since they and the constituents they represent have absolutely no problems here at home to worry about, why shouldn't they enjoy an all-expenses-paid vacation to pander to one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington

As if that's not enough to turn your stomach, look at the way AIPAC gets around the rules against this very sort of activity:

According to the House Ethics Rules, Congress is prohibited from participating in any multiple-day trip that is planned, organized, requested, or arranged by a lobbyist. AIPAC skirts the law by funneling the trips through AIEF.

According to the latest publicly available tax returns, in 2009 AIEF did not even have paid staff, relying on AIPAC employees to do its work. AIPAC contributed more than $3.2 million of employee salaries to cover the staff costs of AIEF in 2009. In other words, a 501©(4) organization with registered lobbyists is paying for the staff of a 501©(3) organization to run congressional delegations that cannot legally be funded by an organization that employs registered lobbyists.

“AIPAC barely tries to hide that fact that AIEF is a front group,” says CODEPINK cofounder Medea Benjamin, who filed the complaint. “The groups are housed in the same offices, have overlapping boards of directors, share staff, employ the same Chief Financial Officer and are constantly moving funds from one entity to another. It’s time for Congress to put an end to this charade by closing the AIPAC loophole.”

Craig Holman, a government affairs lobbyist at Public Citizen who helped draft federal lobbying and ethics reform legislation signed into law in 2007, agrees. “The House ethic rules do not allow a non-profit group like AIEF, which is controlled and directed by the lobby group AIPAC, to pay for travel junkets for members of Congress. This AIPAC loophole is rendering the travel rules meaningless and should be stopped,” says Holman.

http://www.moveoveraipac.org/2011/08/codepink-files-complaint-with-congressional-ethics-committee-against-aipac-funded-junkets-to-israel/

[luckytxn 2,264]

I recommend to you a must read classic on the subject titled, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East", by David Fromkin. It covers the period from 1914 to 1922, just after WWI, and examines the failures that brought the situation in the ME to where it is now.

It's simply not possible to grasp the complexities by starting at 1948, as so many seem to want to do. It's essential to have a wider view of how the region was developed as the spoils of war after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

It's an intense read, but a very good one. The author is Jewish, but that matters not at all. His scholarship is commendable.

Out of my usual places I buy book this one was the only find out of y'all's recommendations. I got it and a few others they had in the area we talked about. I promise to now go online and search for the others. At least I have a few to read for now.

Would like to thank again to Sofiyya, Wife of Mahmoud, Scandal for taking the time to answer and recommend. I promise to pursue and read all y'all have mentioned.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You're so welcome!

Out of my usual places I buy book this one was the only find out of y'all's recommendations. I got it and a few others they had in the area we talked about. I promise to now go online and search for the others. At least I have a few to read for now.

Would like to thank again to Sofiyya, Wife of Mahmoud, Scandal for taking the time to answer and recommend. I promise to pursue and read all y'all have mentioned.

[luckytxn 2,264]

You're so welcome!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You're funny

[luckytxn 2,264]

You're funny

Happy hour does that.

[Dan and Judy 614]

:blink:

[Captain Oates 911]

:blink:

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Edited September 13, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv