Atheism v Anti-Theism

[Danno 1,228]

My response was in part a response to bishops comment earlier in the thread, but if you must have a direct response to your unsubstantiated and dubious claim Atheism makes being a liar, a cheat or a thief easier here goes. From my perspective you were continuing bishops thoughts.

There is NO correlation between belief or disbelief in a divine being and honesty or morality. Your theory is built on bias and is just as provable as the existence of God him/herself.

I hear ya.

[BishopM 114]

No I mean real angels; guardian angels. They literally came over me at a particularly traumatic time and comforted me. They felt light and warm, and their voices were soft, kind and reassuring. It was like the most natural, yet most unique experience I've ever had. I wasn't so surprised that they were there, because they had visited me before, but they had never spoken to me nor had they ever embraced me before. I became a totally different person after that.

Hello Sofiyya,

I also believe heavily in heavenly Angels, including Guardian Angels. As a Catholic, we feel we are blessed with Angels. I didn't realize that Muslims also have the same belief Thanks for broadening my knowledge a bit!

[luckytxn 2,264]

No I mean real angels; guardian angels. They literally came over me at a particularly traumatic time and comforted me. They felt light and warm, and their voices were soft, kind and reassuring. It was like the most natural, yet most unique experience I've ever had. I wasn't so surprised that they were there, because they had visited me before, but they had never spoken to me nor had they ever embraced me before. I became a totally different person after that.

Not strange that we have had the same experiences.

[BishopM 114]

Not being religious doesn't make a person a liar, a cheat or a thief.

Hey Ready4One,

My apologies, I never intended to state that not being religious makes a person a liar, a cheat or a thief . You know, sometimes things come across on the interwebz differently than if we were talking in person. So, to your point, a religous/atheist both have the same chance of becoming a liar, cheat, thief, or anything in the opposite direction as well!

However, and this is something I've always found interesting, a religous person believes that ALL people are created in the image of God. This includes ALL people, religous and atheists. So, even though the atheist denies the existence of God, religious people believe that they are still an image of Him. Therefore, the atheist has the same consciousness as the religious, and the same set of morals, per se...because we are all images of the creator. This is why the atheist can have a fantastic life/disastrous life without a belief of God...its up to them, but I would never imply that atheists don't have morals or have a devalued life at all...again, because they are the image of the creator.

Religous people hold themselves to those morals and often fail. When religous people fail to hold those morals, they use their own human logic and God's direction (via prayer/study/meditation) to reason as to 'why'. It would seem to me that atheists only have their own logic to fall back upon. I don't know about you, but in my experience I've found my own logic to be quite untrustworthy. The mind plays a lot of tricks! Its probably the best liar of all!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I am a pretty content atheist (not saying I am pretty), and I have great security in the knowledge that there is no hell and I can therefore die with a smile on my face and with no uncertainly

I have always thought that I should leave it at that - especially in the face of the belligerency of theists when they are challenged. I have suffered nothing in comparisonon to non-believers in the past who were routinely burned alive and had their limbs broken with hammers by the followers of Jesus

However, when one considers the abuses of the religious, from child rape by priests (No child's bottom left) to the fleecing of the unsophisticated by Churches like Crespo Dollar's, I have leaned towards thinking that I should be actively anti-theist to try get rid of this curse on humanity

After having that thought, I then looked at the reality of society and contemplated the difference between the average 65 year old 300 lb manual worker who never finished college,and who has never been exposed to non-religious ideas, and these plausible PHD's and scholars of Greek Philosophy and history, who set out the case for anti-theism.

I came to a rather depressing thought - what would these 'ordinary' people replace their religion with ? They would be lost and unhappy and confused. They don't have the education or the basic intelligence to think things through to the point where they can relax, secure in a set of ideas they themselves have concluded.

So perhaps the nonreligious should not be opposed so much to religion itself, but rather to the source of the circumcisions, amputations, money fleecing, abortion banning and polical interference and war etc etc etc. The source is of course the churches and the guidance they give to their flock (baaaaaa)

If the churches could be persuaded to oppose wars and not to collude with politicians for the churches' advantage, and to stand up against practises such as burning widows in India, female circumcision, cutting off hands, banning abortion, then a kinder and more human church reflecting that, would not be so bad.

So at the moment I am thinking that anti-theism is not as imperative as anti-churchism insofar as the churches are the fount of much war and cruelty and fleecing of their flocks and it is they who should be opposed and persuaded/forced to change their doctrine. A society full of harmless sheep would not be so bad and as the cruelties the churches peddle and this could be achieved if the churches could be made/persuaded to pull their horns in.

The founding fathers realized this and thus the protections of 'any religion or non' and the separation of religion and state. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and we have not been vigilant enough in repelling the berobed oppressors and peddlers of cruelty and domination

Getting rid of god would not solve the problem because the priests would simply morph in to Stalin or Kim Jong Il.

We need to get rid of this thinking which seeks to order our beliefs and thoughts and lives - in whichever form it comes to take us over.

WE as ordinary citziens should tell the churches to get off our lawns

I wouldn't judge all religious people by the standard of extremists. Extremists should be opposed, certainly.

[웃 910]

Your absolutely right but: if an Atheist is a lying, thieving cheat....within his own self

he can decide whether it's even right or wrong........ mighty convenient if you ask me.

I't almost like in some small why you become your own God, deciding in absolute, what is right or wrong.

How about this:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Oh, yes, Bishop The archangel Jibril (Gabriel) transmitted the Quran to Muhammad (pbuh) over 23 years. Angels are present throughout his life story. We have Shaitan/Satan, too. I've also encountered him. Islam is an Abrahamic faith, and there are many similarities between us.

Hello Sofiyya,

I also believe heavily in heavenly Angels, including Guardian Angels. As a Catholic, we feel we are blessed with Angels. I didn't realize that Muslims also have the same belief Thanks for broadening my knowledge a bit!

Not at all

Not strange that we have had the same experiences.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

No worries Bishop! There is a saying "Locks are for keeping honest men honest." and I think it holds for this discussion. Honest holders of religious faith, and honest holders of no faith tend to be trustworthy people.

Danno you do understand most Nazis would have described themselves as good Christians right? And that Communism and Atheism are two different things?

[The_Dude 1,142]

As I have said in the past..... it seems the NON-religous are often times more obsessed about religion than the, religious-kooks.

It's because of people like you Danno, who try and impose your religious morality on the rest of the country. Even then, you are grossly exaggerating, if not being outright absurd.

No I mean real angels; guardian angels. They literally came over me at a particularly traumatic time and comforted me. They felt light and warm, and their voices were soft, kind and reassuring. It was like the most natural, yet most unique experience I've ever had. I wasn't so surprised that they were there, because they had visited me before, but they had never spoken to me nor had they ever embraced me before. I became a totally different person after that.

You should seek professional help. Paranoid delusions or hallucinations may be indicative of bigger problems. Stay safe.

[TBoneTX 45,291]

Some religious people live their own lives according to codified guidelines of behavior & morals. Others have the attitude of "I'm gonna save your soul, or I'm gonna kill you." There's a difference.

[Danno 1,228]

Danno you do understand most Nazis would have described themselves as good Christians right? And that Communism and Atheism are two different things?

Not really a accurate comparison, for instance Hitler saw Religion as an obstacle where as the Communists saw Atheism as a pillar, hence the conversion of cathedrals into Museums to propagate Atheism.

UNder Communism perhaps millions were punished for their faith, Hitler on the other hand followed some cult like beliefs which are apparent when one studies his visions for the Future.

That some Nazis might describe themselves as "Christian" is meaningless (especially after taking their oath).

[_Simpson_ 250]

I am a pretty content atheist (not saying I am pretty), and I have great security in the knowledge that there is no hell and I can therefore die with a smile on my face and with no uncertainly

I have always thought that I should leave it at that - especially in the face of the belligerency of theists when they are challenged. I have suffered nothing in comparisonon to non-believers in the past who were routinely burned alive and had their limbs broken with hammers by the followers of Jesus

However, when one considers the abuses of the religious, from child rape by priests (No child's bottom left) to the fleecing of the unsophisticated by Churches like Crespo Dollar's, I have leaned towards thinking that I should be actively anti-theist to try get rid of this curse on humanity

After having that thought, I then looked at the reality of society and contemplated the difference between the average 65 year old 300 lb manual worker who never finished college,and who has never been exposed to non-religious ideas, and these plausible PHD's and scholars of Greek Philosophy and history, who set out the case for anti-theism.

I came to a rather depressing thought - what would these 'ordinary' people replace their religion with ? They would be lost and unhappy and confused. They don't have the education or the basic intelligence to think things through to the point where they can relax, secure in a set of ideas they themselves have concluded.

So perhaps the nonreligious should not be opposed so much to religion itself, but rather to the source of the circumcisions, amputations, money fleecing, abortion banning and polical interference and war etc etc etc. The source is of course the churches and the guidance they give to their flock (baaaaaa)

If the churches could be persuaded to oppose wars and not to collude with politicians for the churches' advantage, and to stand up against practises such as burning widows in India, female circumcision, cutting off hands, banning abortion, then a kinder and more human church reflecting that, would not be so bad.

So at the moment I am thinking that anti-theism is not as imperative as anti-churchism insofar as the churches are the fount of much war and cruelty and fleecing of their flocks and it is they who should be opposed and persuaded/forced to change their doctrine. A society full of harmless sheep would not be so bad and as the cruelties the churches peddle and this could be achieved if the churches could be made/persuaded to pull their horns in.

The founding fathers realized this and thus the protections of 'any religion or non' and the separation of religion and state. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and we have not been vigilant enough in repelling the berobed oppressors and peddlers of cruelty and domination

Getting rid of god would not solve the problem because the priests would simply morph in to Stalin or Kim Jong Il.

We need to get rid of this thinking which seeks to order our beliefs and thoughts and lives - in whichever form it comes to take us over.

WE as ordinary citziens should tell the churches to get off our lawns

Strange how atheists give Islam a free ride when it comes to religion bashing. I suppose since everyone else is already bashing on Islam they dont feel the need to.

Edited September 6, 2011 by _Simpson_

[Danno 1,228]

Strange how atheists give Islam a free ride when it comes to religion bashing. I suppose since everyone else is already bashing on Islam they dont feel the need to.

I think the reason for that is Most hard core atheists are from Western countries ... or at least the ones we run into

and so much of Western Culture has Christian residue, thats what they see and thats what eats at'em so much.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You just hurt Ma's and R41's feelings

Strange how atheists give Islam a free ride when it comes to religion bashing. I suppose since everyone else is already bashing on Islam they dont feel the need to.

[_Simpson_ 250]

I think the reason for that is Most hard core atheists are from Western countries ... or at least the ones we run into

and so much of Western Culture has Christian residue, thats what they see and thats what eats at'em so much.

So are you suggesting we should ship them all off to Saudi Arabia?

You just hurt Ma's and R41's feelings

I just don't want the Muslims feeling left out.

Edited September 6, 2011 by _Simpson_