UN Report on Gaza Flotilla

[Pooky 3,785]

Oh, no. Not at all. Perhaps you haven't paid attention to history, even as recently as the Korean Conflict

Korea was 60 years ago.

Unless there is a land engagement, where Turkey's weight of numbers might count, any military action in the scenario we're discussing will be close to Israeli airbases and that's where the biggest technological gap exists. Turkey's airforce is a generation behind the IDF in basic hardware, and two steps further back in weapons and electronics. Plus, the IDF is better trained than most. It would not be a fair fight. Not even close.

There is one caveat that no-one has yet considered with a Turkish military involvement. If the shooting starts, what would NATO, of which Turkey is a member, be required to do?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Korea was 60 years ago.

Unless there is a land engagement, where Turkey's weight of numbers might count, any military action in the scenario we're discussing will be close to Israeli airbases and that's where the biggest technological gap exists. Turkey's airforce is a generation behind the IDF in basic hardware, and two steps further back in weapons and electronics. Plus, the IDF is better trained than most. It would not be a fair fight. Not even close.

There is one caveat that no-one has yet considered with a Turkish military involvement. If the shooting starts, what would NATO, of which Turkey is a member, be required to do?

Technology has never scared the Turks.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Turkey and Iran. The rest of the region is in flux. Turkey started leaning away from the west before the Arab Spring. I think they realize that their entry into the EU was a losing cause, and that changing the equation is preferable to begging. Turkey has a long history of going their own way.

Greece has more need of the EU, than Turkey it appears. You think Turkey may have remained Israel's ally long enough, and perhaps wants to take advantage of the Arab Spring, to reassert the Ottoman's presence in the area?

Did you notice Turkey has remained the one country the US has not been able to bully into submission?

The 67 war was in 1967, but it's still the primary measure by which the power of the IDF is measured.

Korea was 60 years ago.

Unless there is a land engagement, where Turkey's weight of numbers might count, any military action in the scenario we're discussing will be close to Israeli airbases and that's where the biggest technological gap exists. Turkey's airforce is a generation behind the IDF in basic hardware, and two steps further back in weapons and electronics. Plus, the IDF is better trained than most. It would not be a fair fight. Not even close.

There is one caveat that no-one has yet considered with a Turkish military involvement. If the shooting starts, what would NATO, of which Turkey is a member, be required to do?

Edited September 3, 2011 by Sofiyya

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

They are both flying similar numbers of F-16's. The Turks have Israel's old F-4 aircraft, and the Israelis have a few of the new F-15E's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Air_Force#Aircraft_Inventory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force#Current

[mawilson 2,133]

Israel knows how to lose friends in the region, and it does so very well.

Israel has no friends in the region - only duplicitous backstabbing snakes and weasels.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Welcome to the real world, where you reap what you sow.

Israel has no friends in the region - only duplicitous backstabbing snakes and weasels.

[mawilson 2,133]

They are both flying similar numbers of F-16's. The Turks have Israel's old F-4 aircraft, and the Israelis have a few of the new F-15E's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Air_Force#Aircraft_Inventory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force#Current

They are getting a bunch of F-35 stealth fighters though.

The latest is this:

June 30/11: The IAF has sent two servicemen to the United States to serve as the lead technical team in the development of the F-35i, and integrate Israeli technology. It’s now believed that deliveries won’t begin until 2016-2017, and the IAF is reportedly looking at 2016 as the date for pilots to go through training in the USA. Jerusalem Post.

Welcome to the real world, where you reap what you sow.

Israel is always happy to "reap" them a new one.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Blah blah blah

Israel is always happy to "reap" them a new one.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

They are getting a bunch of F-35 stealth fighters though.

The latest is this:

June 30/11: The IAF has sent two servicemen to the United States to serve as the lead technical team in the development of the F-35i, and integrate Israeli technology. It’s now believed that deliveries won’t begin until 2016-2017, and the IAF is reportedly looking at 2016 as the date for pilots to go through training in the USA. Jerusalem Post.

Cool. More "UFO's" flying up and down US 95.

[Pooky 3,785]

They are getting a bunch of F-35 stealth fighters though.

The Thunderpig has to last that long, though. Right now, the LRIP aircraft the USAF have accepted are grounded, the thing is still overweight, can't meet the USAF operational parameters and is in serious budget trouble. It's a POS.

[Pooky 3,785]

The 67 war was in 1967, but it's still the primary measure by which the power of the IDF is measured.

To the uneducated, maybe.

The 1973 Yom Kippur war was a better gauge of the IAF's capacity to fight a technologically comparable opposition. The Egyptian use of top-line Russian hardware was a rude awakening to the IAF after the remarkable success in 1967.

Since then, the IAF has seen almost continual action, most notably against the Syrian AF over the Bekaa Valley. The Israelis are also regular participants in the USAF's Red Flag exercises in Nevada, which gives them the opportunity to face off against dissimilar opposition.

At the end of the day, I hope none of this matters. I hope the Turks aren't angling to provoke the Israelis and, if for some reason they do, I hope the Israelis don't react the way the usually do. The last thing the Palestinians need is an escalation they can do nothing to control.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Pooky

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Neither 1973 or 1967 are appropriate measures. Exercises and Syria are not accurate substitutes for the rest of the region, including Turkey. The only thing that will demonstrate the reality is if and when military action becomes reality. I fear for Israel because of the high expectations so many have for it. The Ottoman Turks had Palestine not long ago. I imagine they have learned some lessons re why they lost it.

To the uneducated, maybe.

The 1973 Yom Kippur war was a better gauge of the IAF's capacity to fight a technologically comparable opposition. The Egyptian use of top-line Russian hardware was a rude awakening to the IAF after the remarkable success in 1967.

Since then, the IAF has seen almost continual action, most notably against the Syrian AF over the Bekaa Valley. The Israelis are also regular participants in the USAF's Red Flag exercises in Nevada, which gives them the opportunity to face off against dissimilar opposition.

At the end of the day, I hope none of this matters. I hope the Turks aren't angling to provoke the Israelis and, if for some reason they do, I hope the Israelis don't react the way the usually do. The last thing the Palestinians need is an escalation they can do nothing to control.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Turkey expelled Israel's ambassador and cut military ties over Israel's refusal to apologize for last year's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, further straining a relationship that had been a cornerstone of regional stability.

The dramatic move came Friday, hours before the release of a U.N. report that called the Israeli raid that killed nine pro-Palestinian activists "excessive and unreasonable." The U.N. panel also blamed Turkey and flotilla organizers for contributing to the deaths.

The rupture between the Jewish state and what was once its most important Muslim ally raised concerns Egypt and Jordan might follow, increasing Israel's isolation in the region.

"If this ends with Turkey, it will be a miracle," said Alon Liel, a former Israeli ambassador to Turkey. "There is a lot of internal pressure in Egypt, and Turkey could use its clout in the Arab and Muslim world to pressure other nations to follow suit."

. . .

The breakdown in Israeli-Turkish relations increases Israel's isolation at a sensitive time. Israel faces turmoil in ties with regional ally Egypt, where there have been growing calls to revoke the three-decade-old Egypt-Israel peace agreement following the ouster of longtime leader Hosni Mubarak. Last month, Egypt briefly threatened to withdraw its ambassador from Israel after a shooting in southern Israel left five Egyptian soldiers dead.

It also comes as Israel seeks to muster international support against an attempt by the Palestinians to have their state recognized at the U.N. later this month.

Turkey was once Israel's closest ally in the region. Ankara had mediated several rounds of indirect negotiations between Israel and Syria in 2008, but the talks made no significant headway and were suspended following the Israeli military offensive in Gaza the following year.

Ties have soured further in recent years and deteriorated sharply after the flotilla bloodshed on May 31, 2010. The Israeli ambassador's expulsion is the most significant downgrading in ties between the two countries.

Under Turkish-Israeli military agreements, Israel provided Turkey with drones which the country uses to gather intelligence on Kurdish rebels fighting Ankara for autonomy. Israel has also modernized Turkish tanks and warplanes while Israeli pilots used Turkey's airspace to train. The countries' militaries have also trained with each other in both countries, and were top defense trading partners, although no new defense contracts have been signed since 2008.

. . .

Source

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

If the hypothetical Turkish Naval escort attempts to prevent, by the use of force, the Israelis acting to enforce the blockade, then it is likely that Turkey will need a new navy.

The technological disparity between the Turkish armed forces and the IDF is pretty wide, despite Israeli defence companies being responsible for many Turkish systems and equipment upgrades. Any miltary engagement is likely to be distinctly one sided, that close to mainland Israel.

Israel has not faced a real army since 1973 (you remember - the war that was basically a draw and led to Israel giving back the Sinai a few years later.)

The IDF could not beat Hezbollah.

The IDF has not even been able to eradicate Hamas.

Not to mention the one retired (and unarmed !) ex-Marine who was able to single-handedly disarm two "elite" Israeli commandos on the Mavi Marmara.

The fact is: the IDF of today doesn't have any experience at all in fighting real wars. And its soldiers have grown soft in 44 years of enforcing the occupation - shooting Palestinian school kids, defecating in people's homes, and forcing pregnant women to give birth in the dirt. Israel excels at murdering unarmed civilians and rock-throwers and forcing old ladies to walk an extra 5 miles to a different checkpoint - no question about that. But fighting real soldiers is a very different matter.

I really don't think Israel wants any part of an armed conflict with Turkey. Actually, I don't think Turkey wants one either. We will see how this plays out...

[웃 910]

The fact is: the IDF of today doesn't have any experience at all in fighting real wars. And its soldiers have grown soft in 44 years of enforcing the occupation - shooting Palestinian school kids, defecating in people's homes, and forcing pregnant women to give birth in the dirt. Israel excels at murdering unarmed civilians and rock-throwers and forcing old ladies to walk an extra 5 miles to a different checkpoint - no question about that. But fighting real soldiers is a very different matter.