National anthem

[nane1104 146]

Ok, so I have been living in the Us for over two years now and specially since hubby is in the military, I am in a lot of situations where the national anthem is being played.

Usually I stand up like everyone else, keep my arms down along the sides of my body and listen to the anthem...which I love and usually I get goosebumps and I automatically have to smile.

So I definitley want to pay my respects to the national anthem but I am never sure, what is really appropriate for me to do as a non-US citizen.

I don't want to possibly offend anyone by acting like I was a citizen but I laso don't want to offend anyone by doing something wrong like i.e. not holding my right hand over my heart.

At the end of the day, I am german, always will be, even if I became a US citizen one day, I'd always be german by heart.

I asked my husband about this and how "foreigners" would be percieved but he kind of shrugged it off and told me to just do what I feel is right.

So, what are your thoughts?

[pacificleye 4]

Ok, so I have been living in the Us for over two years now and specially since hubby is in the military, I am in a lot of situations where the national anthem is being played.

Usually I stand up like everyone else, keep my arms down along the sides of my body and listen to the anthem...which I love and usually I get goosebumps and I automatically have to smile.

So I definitley want to pay my respects to the national anthem but I am never sure, what is really appropriate for me to do as a non-US citizen.

I don't want to possibly offend anyone by acting like I was a citizen but I laso don't want to offend anyone by doing something wrong like i.e. not holding my right hand over my heart.

At the end of the day, I am german, always will be, even if I became a US citizen one day, I'd always be german by heart.

I asked my husband about this and how "foreigners" would be percieved but he kind of shrugged it off and told me to just do what I feel is right.

So, what are your thoughts?

For foreigner all is required is to stand up and hands down while facing the flag. Only citizens are required to face the flag whilst standing with their right hands over their heart. Bu really as long as you are standing respectfully with everyone else you will be fine, no one will come and arrest you or ask why you don't have your right hand over your heart.

[Brit Abroad 166]

I have had exactly the same dilemma in the past. I rationalise it by singing along happily - it's a beautiful tune, with lovely words and I wish America well in this world of ours. However, just like you are German at heart, at heart I will always be British and so holding my hand on my heart just isn 't going to happen. It's a mark of how much the country means to an American and I am not one, so I don't feel that pressure to do it.

Of course, I'm guessing that if you live on post, you go through the flag ceremonies twice a day and feel like the odd person out by not saluting or holding your hand on your heart. It's perfectly ok to just stand still and pay silent respects to their loyalty.

[J&N* 68]

Even most Americans just stand with their arms by their sides, not on their heart and not singing. Do whatever you want.

[Helen Louise Pile 80]

For foreigner all is required is to stand up and hands down while facing the flag. Only citizens are required to face the flag whilst standing with their right hands over their heart. Bu really as long as you are standing respectfully with everyone else you will be fine, no one will come and arrest you or ask why you don't have your right hand over your heart.

Haha. No-one is 'required' to do anything. People choose to do this.

I work in a school and when the pledge of allegiance is recited I stand with the kids but I don't say the words. When the kids ask me why I don't say it then I explain that I am not an American citizen.

During the anthem I stand but I don't sing. It is good to be respectful. I would stand during the anthem of any country I was in. It's polite. Most Americans are happy with whatever you decide to do with regard to the National Anthem, as long as it's respectful.

Good question! I'm sure a lot of us have thought about it at some point.

[Dan and Judy 614]

I can't imagine anyone getting upset about you showing respect

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Once you take the Oath of Allegiance, which contains this:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD

you are NOT, I repeat, you are NOT a German anymore. If you don't agree, you are NOT ready to become an American. The fact that the US government takes your word for it and does not require you to formally renounce your German citizenship does not mean they don't care about oaths and perjury. For the U.S. government you are a U.S. citizen and nothing else. If you want to be German, you can do so outside of the U.S. as long as it does not interfere with matters concerning the U.S.

Don't tell Americans in America that you will be German regardless of the Oath you took under false pretenses. I take personal offense to this and so do millions of fellow Americans.

Nothing personal Nane; I respect you, but here in America we are Americans, nothing but Americans.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Just Bob

[Helen Louise Pile 80]

Once you take the Oath of Allegiance, which contains this:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD

you are NOT, I repeat, you are NOT a German anymore. If you don't agree, you are NOT ready to become an American. The fact that the US government takes your word for it and does not require you to formally renounce your German citizenship does not mean they don't care about oaths and perjury. For the U.S. government you are a U.S. citizen and nothing else. If you want to be German, you can do so outside of the U.S. as long as it does not interfere with matters concerning the U.S.

Don't tell Americans in America that you will be German regardless of the Oath you took under false pretenses. I take personal offense to this and so do millions of fellow Americans.

Nothing personal Nane; I respect you, but here in America we are Americans, nothing but Americans.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Once you take the Oath of Allegiance, which contains this:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD

you are NOT, I repeat, you are NOT a German anymore. If you don't agree, you are NOT ready to become an American. The fact that the US government takes your word for it and does not require you to formally renounce your German citizenship does not mean they don't care about oaths and perjury. For the U.S. government you are a U.S. citizen and nothing else. If you want to be German, you can do so outside of the U.S. as long as it does not interfere with matters concerning the U.S.

Don't tell Americans in America that you will be German regardless of the Oath you took under false pretenses. I take personal offense to this and so do millions of fellow Americans.

Nothing personal Nane; I respect you, but here in America we are Americans, nothing but Americans.

US State Department Services Dual Nationality

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The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad

http://travel.state....s/cis_1753.html

Edited August 30, 2011 by Dan and Judy

[Dan and Judy 614]

This is a link with further info on dual citizenship if anyone cares to read more

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#twopass

I would say the OP's statement ", even if I became a US citizen one day, I'd always be german by heart." shows that she had not even made up her mind that she wanted

to become a US citizen and therefore had most likely not looked into what would be required. Someone who is so sensitive that they are worried about the proper etiqutte during the

National Anthem would not lightly take the oath of alligiance.

[nane1104 146]

Thank you all for your input.

Throwing in the citizenship/dual citizenship issue, this is a pretty complex topic. I won't go into it to deep right now but I think I'd like to adress some of the statements made here.

Just Bob...I respect your opinion and usually I agree about a 100% with you but on this topic I guess we don't see eye to eye.

My plan is to become a US citizen one day but I would def. keep my german citizenship. If I understand it right, once you become a naturalized citizen in the US, you are considered american but at the same time, the US does not have a problem with me also being a german citizen. That being said, I do not believe that the US government expects me to give up my german culture, my way of thinking, my love for Germany so to speak.

I just don't think it's as black or white as you state it. That doesn't mean I take this lightly at all. I would never try to become a citizen just for benefits or out of convenience. I live here, my husband and my children are at least dual citizens, I work here and in a way, I even already as "only" a LPR serve the country like all the other US citizen military spouses. I make the same sacrifices and that not only out of love for my husband but out of respect for what the military does and stands for.

All in all I will say I would not feel I would naturalize for the wrong reasons or I'd be a "fake" US citizen. I just can't see it that way.

If you really mean what you wrote, I wonder why you have dual citizenship yourself because according to your statement, you are only american now, but then you also state, you can be german outside the US. What does that mean for you? Once you are in Germany, you allow yourself to feel home there as well or do you now feel like a stranger there? Because that's where I was getting at with my "german at heart" statement that offended you so much (sorry for that, btw, I didn't mean to offend anyone)

Dan and Judy, thanks for the post and the link, that is pretty much exactly how I'd approach dual citizenship and I am very glad that that's how the US government looks at the issue.

Thanks to everyone for their input on the National Anthem issue:)

[keysjangle 145]

Pretty tough subject when it gets down to the nitty gritty. The way I see it, the only reason I'm applying for a green card (and then citizenship) is because I fell in love and married an American man. I'll be sad to leave my country. This isn't to say I hate the U.S., just that I know where my heart lies. There's nothing wrong in seeing yourself as Australian/British/German/Canadian/Chinese etc. at heart - nothing at all. I plan on keeping a dual citizenship because I don't ever intend on leaving Canada in my past. I am honoured that the U.S. has accepted me so far, and so I will always treat it with respect, but that doesn't mean I should repress my inner Canuck.

I am also the spouse of someone in the U.S. military, and although he jokes about me not being allowed to say "eh" or spell words with a 'u' anymore, I know he understands the internal battle surrounding my self identification. I'd actually feel bad for someone who thought they had to abandon where they came from because they felt the need to plunge head first into the melting pot Nothing can take who I am away from me. I'll say the Oath of Allegiance knowing in my heart that I do mean it because I was allowed by the government to live in the U.S. It's like going to a foreign country and saying "thank you" or "hello" in their native language; you have the decency to show respect by acknowledging that you are in their territory and playing by their rules.

After all, aren't we all just citizens of the world?

[fozzie 41]

Once you take the Oath of Allegiance, which contains this:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD

you are NOT, I repeat, you are NOT a German anymore. If you don't agree, you are NOT ready to become an American. The fact that the US government takes your word for it and does not require you to formally renounce your German citizenship does not mean they don't care about oaths and perjury. For the U.S. government you are a U.S. citizen and nothing else. If you want to be German, you can do so outside of the U.S. as long as it does not interfere with matters concerning the U.S.

Don't tell Americans in America that you will be German regardless of the Oath you took under false pretenses. I take personal offense to this and so do millions of fellow Americans.

Nothing personal Nane; I respect you, but here in America we are Americans, nothing but Americans.

Wrong. I will always conider myself English because that is where I was born and raised and you cannot undo that, at heart I will always be English regardless of my citizenship status. I am betting that 99% of immigrants will feel the same.

Edit: I would also be surprised if most Americans consider everyone that moved here and took US citizenship as true Americans.

Edited September 1, 2011 by fozzie

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Nane,

as you may or may not know, issues with multiple citizenship are my pet peeve. I've nourished it for many years and have read up extensively on the subject. Luckily this discussion is not about having more than one nationality; it's about becoming an American and taking the Oath of Allegiance in order to make that happen.

While I was born in Germany to a German mother and a Swedish father and thus have life-long ties to both countries, I consider myself an American now. If I could, I would enter and exit Germany with my U.S. passport, but that's a violation of German law (up to Euro 1.000,-- fine)., so that's the only reason I have a valid German passport right now. People with US and Canadian citizenship have it easier in this regard; they can enter and leave Canada with their U.S. passport only. Lucky them!

I kept my German nationality for two reasons: 1) because I could, and 2) as a emergency parachute in case the country totally transforms into the United Corporations of America with nothing left that resembles a social net until We the People initiate what happened in the former Yugoslavia, the former USSR, and now some countries of the Middle East. If I'm 65 years old, sick, broke, cold, hungry, and all I have left fits into a shopping card, I can go to German and say: "I'm a German citizen, I'm cold, I'm hungry, please help me" and so they will.

When I took the Oath, I meant it. Like with American Idol where you have two favorites, it may -- in some rather unusual circumstances -- come to a point where both of your favorites are in the final. Since only one of them can win, it's decision time. I have never taken an Oath to Sweden (and I love Sweden!) or Germany, but I have taken an Oath to the United States. Therefore, if -- as unlikely as it surely is -- it ever comes to me having to decide between my favorites, It will be the United States. I expect nothing less from anybody who did the same. I guess a good test would be to ask oneself: would I have become an American if it had meant losing my original citizenship? If the answer is "no," I'd say that person is not fully committed to become an American. I'll tell you: I would have become an American even if it had meant cutting all ties to Europe.

Sure you can embrace your German culture and heritage! The fantastic thing about the U.S is that people from all over the world can live under one roof in peace, and nobody is less American because of religion or the place they were born. That actually is anchored in the Supreme Law of this country.

I have no doubt that your previous post was anything but innocent, but please understand that it did hurt me as an American to hear a foreigner who's about to take the Oath stating that it means nothing. I does mean something; it means a lot! You can be German in any country of the World, but the United States. Inside the United States you are an American (then) and when you hear the National Anthem, you do what Americans with manners and ethics who lover their country do, even if they fear or hate their Government."

America is different. You will rarely, if ever, see a German having a German flag flying in his yard; doing so would be seen as weird, a sign of a neo-Nazi perhaps? In the U.S. flying the U.S. flag is seen as a sign of patriotism and love to one's country. America is special indeed.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Once you take the Oath of Allegiance, which contains this:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD

you are NOT, I repeat, you are NOT a German anymore. If you don't agree, you are NOT ready to become an American.