Qutting your job in Russia

[slim 1,514]

Electrologists? Are they the guys that are zapping the hair off hot girl's cootchies? They should have a lottery for those licenses! I would buy a few chances for that!

Like an OB/GYN doc once told me, "You get a lot more older, fatter, and uglier women than you ever thought possible. They're not all hot young coeds. What seemed like a good idea in college turned into a nightmare out in the real world."

I think it's generally a good idea for states to make sure people are qualified to do the job they're performing.

You don't think the private industry is capable of doing so by "certifying with dollars?"

[Robert&Liliya 31]

You do get an a$$ load of paper certs that can't do the job but have a nice wall hanging.

[Captain Hammer 113]

You don't think the private industry is capable of doing so by "certifying with dollars?"

We only need to look at the banking industry for an example of worst-case industry self-regulation. Not that banking and hair care have a lot in common, but it illustrates that private regulation isn't always the answer. Could it be in the case of the cosmetology industry? Perhaps. But I don't see the cosmetologists in my state breaking down the doors of the assembly demanding that the state stop regulating them. I also think that when it comes to hygiene, a society (the state) is compelled to protect the well-being of its citizenry. I can see the point of "if you keep giving bad haircuts then the market will correct by forcing you out of business," but if during your time of market correction you are passing diseases on to your ever-diminishing client list, that's not good. That's what leads to things like plagues. Of course issuing a license to somebody doesn't mean they will automatically be qualified in a practical sense, but it does seem to work on a macro level.

When it comes to hygiene, I really don't think there's enough regulation. It's one of the reasons I don't eat fast food, I really don't relish the idea of small helpings of fecal matter with my Big Mac. Also fast food tastes like ####### to me, so I guess I still wouldn't eat there even if they were fecal free, but that's another conversation.

[SMR 368]

We only need to look at the banking industry for an example of worst-case industry self-regulation. Not that banking and hair care have a lot in common, but it illustrates that private regulation isn't always the answer. Could it be in the case of the cosmetology industry? Perhaps. But I don't see the cosmetologists in my state breaking down the doors of the assembly demanding that the state stop regulating them. I also think that when it comes to hygiene, a society (the state) is compelled to protect the well-being of its citizenry. I can see the point of "if you keep giving bad haircuts then the market will correct by forcing you out of business," but if during your time of market correction you are passing diseases on to your ever-diminishing client list, that's not good. That's what leads to things like plagues. Of course issuing a license to somebody doesn't mean they will automatically be qualified in a practical sense, but it does seem to work on a macro level.

When it comes to hygiene, I really don't think there's enough regulation. It's one of the reasons I don't eat fast food, I really don't relish the idea of small helpings of fecal matter with my Big Mac. Also fast food tastes like ####### to me, so I guess I still wouldn't eat there even if they were fecal free, but that's another conversation.

I see the need for some types of regulations. The problem here, and how this conversation started, is that many of these regulations have much more to do with cornering the market and controlling training programs than with actual public safety. VV's wife worked many years as a successful hair stylist but would have to study for over 100 hours and pay over $13,000 dollars to become licensed in his state. If all we're concerned about is public safety and hair stylist proficiency, a simple test for those that are already proficient would be sufficient. It might cost a couple hundred bucks and take a couple hours, tops. The regulation is created by a lobby of hair stylists and schools that want to limit competition and force the use of their services.

I have an acquaintance in a similar situation. She was a successful practicing masseuse in another state but to become license in New York she would have to redo expensive and time consuming training that she could probably teach. In short, I have no problem with requiring training as long as there is a reasonable way to prove that you are already trained.

[Captain Hammer 113]

I see the need for some types of regulations. The problem here, and how this conversation started, is that many of these regulations have much more to do with cornering the market and controlling training programs than with actual public safety. VV's wife worked many years as a successful hair stylist but would have to study for over 100 hours and pay over $13,000 dollars to become licensed in his state. If all we're concerned about is public safety and hair stylist proficiency, a simple test for those that are already proficient would be sufficient. It might cost a couple hundred bucks and take a couple hours, tops. The regulation is created by a lobby of hair stylists and schools that want to limit competition and force the use of their services.

I have an acquaintance in a similar situation. She was a successful practicing masseuse in another state but to become license in New York she would have to redo expensive and time consuming training that she could probably teach. In short, I have no problem with requiring training as long as there is a reasonable way to prove that you are already trained.

But isn't that just the market asserting itself through the cosmetology industry? It sounds to me like the cosmetology industry have leveraged their pull in your state legislature to set its own industry requirements. If it were bad for cosmetologists, then they would leverage their pull in the state to ease the barriers to entry.

But I do sympathize. My wife was a very accomplished and capable attorney in Ukraine. She worked hard to get to the top of her field, and there's zero doubt in my mind that it wouldn't take her long to get up to speed with our legal system--in fact, she's already up to speed, just not "qualified." But that barrier to entry was established years (centuries, actually) before I came along. So by the time she's deemed qualified to practice law in this country, we will have spent well over a hundred thousand dollars and several years of time to get through that barrier. (be happy it's only $13k for you VV ) But looking at it from the client end of the equation, I would probably feel a lot better about hiring an attorney who's had to go through that process.

[slim 1,514]

We only need to look at the banking industry for an example of worst-case industry self-regulation.

What's wrong with the banking industry?

[Captain Hammer 113]

What's wrong with the banking industry?

Sub-prime mortgage crisis ring any bells?

[slim 1,514]

Sub-prime mortgage crisis ring any bells?

...encouraged by whom?

[SMR 368]

But isn't that just the market asserting itself through the cosmetology industry? It sounds to me like the cosmetology industry have leveraged their pull in your state legislature to set its own industry requirements. If it were bad for cosmetologists, then they would leverage their pull in the state to ease the barriers to entry.

But I do sympathize. My wife was a very accomplished and capable attorney in Ukraine. She worked hard to get to the top of her field, and there's zero doubt in my mind that it wouldn't take her long to get up to speed with our legal system--in fact, she's already up to speed, just not "qualified." But that barrier to entry was established years (centuries, actually) before I came along. So by the time she's deemed qualified to practice law in this country, we will have spent well over a hundred thousand dollars and several years of time to get through that barrier. (be happy it's only $13k for you VV ) But looking at it from the client end of the equation, I would probably feel a lot better about hiring an attorney who's had to go through that process.

No, that really isn't the market asserting itself through the cosmetology industry (unless I am misunderstanding the situation). If it was possible to open a salon and call yourself a hair stylist without a license but no one would come to you, that would be the free market asserting itself. But in this case, at least with the masseuse, you are legally not allowed to offer your services. That's entirely different than customers not wanting to patronize. Obviously it's not bad for cosmetologists who already have a license. Once you have a license, you don't want anyone else to get a license. That's what the lobby is trying to do.

I understand that $13,000 might be less than some fields, but I don't think that the legal field is really something we should be trying to emulate as reasonable. Lawyers probably have a place in society but they have run a muck in so many ways.

[Captain Hammer 113]

No, that really isn't the market asserting itself through the cosmetology industry (unless I am misunderstanding the situation). If it was possible to open a salon and call yourself a hair stylist without a license but no one would come to you, that would be the free market asserting itself. But in this case, at least with the masseuse, you are legally not allowed to offer your services. That's entirely different than customers not wanting to patronize. Obviously it's not bad for cosmetologists who already have a license. Once you have a license, you don't want anyone else to get a license. That's what the lobby is trying to do.

I understand that $13,000 might be less than some fields, but I don't think that the legal field is really something we should be trying to emulate as reasonable. Lawyers probably have a place in society but they have run a muck in so many ways.

But if you think about it, $13k isn't really a lot of money when you're talking about obtaining a career skill. The average cost of an undergraduate university education runs anywhere from around $10k/year for an average state university, up to $40k/year or more for a private university. $13k to obtain a non-professional skill? Sounds like not a bad deal to me.

I do agree though that there should be some way to "test out" if you've already got the skills. I'd think that would be difficult with cosmetology, but if there's a way I don't see why not. You'll just have to convince Barbazon.

[SMR 368]

But if you think about it, $13k isn't really a lot of money when you're talking about obtaining a career skill. The average cost of an undergraduate university education runs anywhere from around $10k/year for an average state university, up to $40k/year or more for a private university. $13k to obtain a non-professional skill? Sounds like not a bad deal to me.

I do agree though that there should be some way to "test out" if you've already got the skills. I'd think that would be difficult with cosmetology, but if there's a way I don't see why not. You'll just have to convince Barbazon.

No, $13k isn't exorbitant for a career skill if you are really learning something. But making it possible to test out of or take short classes to cover the health and safety requirements wouldn't be too difficult in my opinion. Beyond that, I think the market is completely qualified to judge who the better stylist is and patronize accordingly.

[Captain Hammer 113]

No, $13k isn't exorbitant for a career skill if you are really learning something. But making it possible to test out of or take short classes to cover the health and safety requirements wouldn't be too difficult in my opinion. Beyond that, I think the market is completely qualified to judge who the better stylist is and patronize accordingly.

As it turns out, I had my semi-monthly whether-I-need-it-or-not haircut yesterday. The lady is a Russian friend of my wife's, and we talked about this thread. According to her, my state has no regulation that requires a cosmetologist to go to a school. The only requirement is a state exam, which is only a few hundred dollars, but she said it's very comprehensive. It gets even easier if you were licensed in another state, you just need an endorsement and pay some fees. The same goes if you were licensed in another country, although you have to get the country you're licensed in to send verification. Could be tough if she's from Russia or Ukraine. Regulations vary from state to state of course, but she's been licensed in 3 states and said the regulations were all similar. VV, you might want to check with your state again. Could be that your wife can save herself $13k.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

...encouraged by whom?

William Jefferson Cinton, Democratic President of the United States, who on July 12, 1999, signed into law an ill-advised change in the banking regulations that allowed the sub-prime mortgage business to exist. The goal of the Democrats was to allow easier access to home ownership for people that were otherwise unqualified. Affirmative action for mortgages.

Like every other affirmative action program that places people in positions that they are not qualified for...it failed.

Who would have imagined that loaning people 125% of the home value without verifying income could possibly have been a mistake?

Edited September 2, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

But if you think about it, $13k isn't really a lot of money when you're talking about obtaining a career skill. The average cost of an undergraduate university education runs anywhere from around $10k/year for an average state university, up to $40k/year or more for a private university. $13k to obtain a non-professional skill? Sounds like not a bad deal to me.

I do agree though that there should be some way to "test out" if you've already got the skills. I'd think that would be difficult with cosmetology, but if there's a way I don't see why not. You'll just have to convince Barbazon.

It is stupendously outrageous a fee if the person already has the skill. Professional or not, a person that has already obtained the skill, can pass an examination and pay some reasonable fee should be allowed to practice their craft or trade, period. PERIOD! Doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc., would in NO WAY (EVER!) accept being told that they have to start over with their education in its entirety to be able to practice in the USA. The idea is preposterous.

We will allow an immigrant to drive a car with NO PRIOR training 2 months after they arrive (if they are over the magical age of 18 when all knowledge is bestowed) by simply getting lucky and passing a driving test that lasts 15 minutes. Drive well for 15 minutes and you are in for life. Stupid. Traffic accidents kill 40,000 + every year in this country and that's OK. How many people do hair stylists kill? (not counting the people killed by immigrant hair stylists who are driving a car)

They ought to give hair styling lisences away to anyone that wants one and require a $13,000 course to learn to drive! (if we must have it one way or the other)

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Like an OB/GYN doc once told me, "You get a lot more older, fatter, and uglier women than you ever thought possible. They're not all hot young coeds. What seemed like a good idea in college turned into a nightmare out in the real world."

You don't think the private industry is capable of doing so by "certifying with dollars?"

And government isn't? Don't even make me laugh. What kind of ####### does one have to be to believe that the government at any level has more interest in the integrity of an industry than the industry itself does?

If I was an electrolisys guy I would only do hot girls. I do not think they are covered by any oath or discrimination laws. Besides, I think you can legally discriminate based on hotness.