Is it time to REDEFINE PEDOPHILES?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Exactly, what makes you difference from someone else who shares your sexual orientation/preferences but has raped {and maybe murdered} someone?

Generally speaking, having sex with adults does not require abduction and rape, though I admit that this seems to go out the window in situations where there is sexual deprivation or the sort of social breakdown you see in war. Having sex with young children does require rape and abduction.

Statistics don't agree with you on that one. Most Child Sex Offenders do not identify as Pedophiles and in fact the victims are convenience (easier to either emotionally manipulate or physically force).

Statistics like these?.

To summarise:

1) Approximately 95% of incidents of sexual abuse of children age 12 and younger are committed by offenders who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia

2) Such persons make up 65% of child molestation offenders.

3) Pedophilic child molesters commit ten times more sexual acts against children than non-pedophilic child molesters.

Studies suggest that Alcoholism has biological (genetic) roots and not can some people be predisposed but even some racial backgrounds can contribute to lesser resistance to it negative effects.

Addictive behaviour has genetic roots, but having those genes doesn't mean you will become an alcoholic. These things are driven by behaviour and environment as well.

Edited August 24, 2011 by fishdude

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Generally speaking, having sex with adults does not require abduction and rape, though I admit that this seems to go out the window in situations where there is sexual deprivation or the sort of social breakdown you see in war. Having sex with young children does require rape and abduction.

1) Approximately 95% of incidents of sexual abuse of children age 12 and younger are committed by offenders who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia

2) Such persons make up 65% of child molestation offenders.

3) Pedophilic child molesters commit ten times more sexual acts against children than non-pedophilic child molesters.

From your source:

Fifty percent to 70% of pedophiles can be diagnosed as having another paraphilia, such as frotteurism, exhibitionism, voyeurism, or sadism

and

PROBLEMS WITH PEDOPHILIC RESEARCH

When reviewing research studies on pedophilia, it must be remembered that there is a strong potential for sampling biases. Many studies obtained their pedophilic or sexual offender populations from prisons or legally mandated sexual treatment groups. This sampling raises questions about the subjects' willingness to be honest and/or to incriminate themselves on self-report surveys.^5,7,23 The prison populations also exclude pedophiles who have not been caught, those whose level of offense was not severe enough to result in jail time, those who could control their impulses, and those who were more financially successful and better able to prevail in their legal troubles through the retention of private attorneys.^7,27 This sampling introduces the possibility that the findings of lower intelligence, personality disorder, and an overall reduced level of functioning are more characteristic of pedophiles who were arrested than the characteristics of the group as a whole.^11,23 Also, many studies are based on small sampling sizes.^7,27Finally, the findings from one study may not be generalizable to another because of significant differences that exist between pedophilic subgroups and the children they abuse.

Addictive behaviour has genetic roots, but having those genes doesn't mean you will become an alcoholic. These things are driven by behaviour and environment as well.

Which is exactly what I've been saying about Pedophile Sex Offenders and your source even agrees.

So again, most offenders have other issues and minus those issues it's difficult at best to say that the person would offend.

[nane1104 146]

Not a fair comparison. Your "pretend woman" is missing some vital parts! The Pedophilic attraction is to the physical appearance not the deepness of their personality.

I think that was a very fair comparison but I'd add that it is not all about physical appearance alone. A huge factor for a pedophile is the fact that he knows he is dealing with a child, not a young looking woman. It's about dominating, manipulating and abusing a child, disguised as becoming a "friend" or a (sex)teacher, doing the child good, helping the child in their development. THAT'S the sick part.

Categorizing Pedophiles into the "active" and "non active" type is like saying a dry alcoholic isn't an alcoholic.

[Zero Sum 305]

Rats... network timed out last response.

Bob, its great that you point out the potential for sampling error. That said, notice that you can have the most specified sample pool in testing these criminal populations. One needs to consider the methodology to ensure the control groups (if in prison) are indeed seeking to not incriminate themselves, thereby diluting the effect of the experimental group. In effect, sampling error in the kind of studies highlighted before in this thread would actually strengthen the significance of the obtained results... if weeded out.

Luckily, the imaging paradigms are much harder to obfuscate as lie detector responses are in real time. Brain activity happens in the order of milliseconds, much faster than the threshold one needs to try and dominate slower detection technologies. To make it simpler, focusing on specific populations of known offenders within certain categories actually establishes the potential for a stronger result correlated to a common mechanism, and that would be effectively markedly different from a control group that lacked this result...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

From your source:

Fifty percent to 70% of pedophiles can be diagnosed as having another paraphilia, such as frotteurism, exhibitionism, voyeurism, or sadism

and

PROBLEMS WITH PEDOPHILIC RESEARCH

When reviewing research studies on pedophilia, it must be remembered that there is a strong potential for sampling biases. Many studies obtained their pedophilic or sexual offender populations from prisons or legally mandated sexual treatment groups. This sampling raises questions about the subjects' willingness to be honest and/or to incriminate themselves on self-report surveys.^5,7,23 The prison populations also exclude pedophiles who have not been caught, those whose level of offense was not severe enough to result in jail time, those who could control their impulses, and those who were more financially successful and better able to prevail in their legal troubles through the retention of private attorneys.^7,27 This sampling introduces the possibility that the findings of lower intelligence, personality disorder, and an overall reduced level of functioning are more characteristic of pedophiles who were arrested than the characteristics of the group as a whole.^11,23 Also, many studies are based on small sampling sizes.^7,27Finally, the findings from one study may not be generalizable to another because of significant differences that exist between pedophilic subgroups and the children they abuse.

Which is exactly what I've been saying about Pedophile Sex Offenders and your source even agrees.

So again, most offenders have other issues and minus those issues it's difficult at best to say that the person would offend.

First off, you suggested statistics are against me on the point I made (that a person who is a pedophile is more likely to be a sex offender). The article I posted indicates that there are clear statistical links between pedophilia and child sex abuse. So far you have provided no proof of your claim that I am wrong in my interpretation of this.

Also I'm not sure what purpose is served by highlighting that particular passage. This article isn't a research paper as such, it is a literature review of the research that has been conducted in relation to pedophilia and child sex abuse. In other words it describes many studies that have been done over a several years.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

It's seriously insulting to compare and equate pedophiles to Muslims, Blacks and gays. Muslims, Blacks or gays do not, by definition, undress kids in their minds and long to have sex with them. That is sick, sick, sick and not acceptable in any healthy venue.

Sofiyya,

I have expressed by respect for you on more than one occasion in the forums here at VJ and I promise no offense was intended but I did not equate Pedophiles/Muslims/Blacks/Gays. Your misreading of my response pinpoints one of the most difficult aspects of the issues here: People get so emotionally charged-up that they let reason go by the wayside and can't discuss the issues at hand.

Pedophiles do not "by definition" undress kids in their minds and long to have sex with them. You make it sound like they are all preoccupied with having sex our children and that is no more true than to say all men are preoccupied with having sex with every woman they meet.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I think that was a very fair comparison but I'd add that it is not all about physical appearance alone. A huge factor for a pedophile is the fact that he knows he is dealing with a child, not a young looking woman. It's about dominating, manipulating and abusing a child, disguised as becoming a "friend" or a (sex)teacher, doing the child good, helping the child in their development. THAT'S the sick part.

Categorizing Pedophiles into the "active" and "non active" type is like saying a dry alcoholic isn't an alcoholic.

A Pedophile doesn't have the need to dominate and abuse a child any more than I have the need to dominate and abuse an adult woman.

The need to dominate & abuse another person is the sickness. Children are easier targets because they don't have the same defenses (mentally or physically) as adults.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

First off, you suggested statistics are against me on the point I made (that a person who is a pedophile is more likely to be a sex offender). The article I posted indicates that there are clear statistical links between pedophilia and child sex abuse. So far you have provided no proof of your claim that I am wrong in my interpretation of this.

Also I'm not sure what purpose is served by highlighting that particular passage. This article isn't a research paper as such, it is a literature review of the research that has been conducted in relation to pedophilia and child sex abuse. In other words it describes many studies that have been done over a several years.

If you want to use statistics from an article that at the end includes a disclaimer which basically admits that you really can't get a good anything from the numbers because due to the nature of the subject it's hard to get honest answers just don't expect me to accept the number you're quoting.

I'll take the brain activity studies over prison interviews any day of the week but of course all they do is tell you what arouses the test subject. They don't tell you what other issues they may have, how many victims they have etc.

As to posting my own statistics, I honestly don't trust any statistic that can't be proven with cold-hard facts. I used to have a few good links for long-term sex offender recidivism which showed that only murderers serving life sentences had a lower re-offense rate than convicted sex offenders (the study followed offenders who were released over 15 years) but again while I agree with the results I accept that there could be offenders counted as re-offense free who simply had not been caught. I prefer to look at how my years of real life experience sync-up with any published reports.

It has been years since I was active in the Sex Offender Recovery Community, not because I don't believe in it but because it is difficult to make much headway with public perceptions scaring so many into hiding.

I personally know recovering offenders with decades since their last offense.

I personally know offenders who don't care that they hurt someone else.

I personally know Pedophiles who would never touch a child and are maintaining healthy adult relationships.

I have spend countless hours in therapeutic environments and in the "real world" with offenders of all sorts.

Comparing them & their recovery to alcoholism is spot on, it can be managed and generally is brought on by other issues.

Of course there are exceptions to this (as there are for everything) but the misguided barbarian attempts to create a sub-class has cast a net so wide that it is meaningless. The SO Registry has people who urinated in an ally behind a bar, skinny dipped after dark in the presence of other adults, had a child look into their apartment through the crack between drawn drapes as they walked nude from their bathroom to their bedroom after a shower. This whole Pedophile = Sex Offender is offensive and ignorant.

Am I a little biased, of course I am. I have seen the issues from all sides. As a parent I have the same concerns as everyone else but I chose to educate myself on the issues. I don't need to read about it from books and websites, I've lived it for many years. I'm closer to victims & offenders than many people are their neighbors.

So tell me again how studies done my people you don't even know under conditions that you can neither verify or confirm are effective invalidate over 2 decades of my life dealing with "those folks" on an almost daily basis...

[Danno 1,228]

When all the speculation is finished, I have no doubt that the Overton window has moved and we see this already with the sexualization of not just teens but children.

If we believe young teens are independent enough to decide if they wish to have sex, how far of a leap is it to grant them the right to decide "WHO" they want to have sex with?

Once the window has moved that far, (and we are nearly there now) certainly what was unthinkable will become ahh not so far out.

Certainly these movements will take time, in fact those who have been raised with the generic Christian influenced morals (all of us) will find it hard to believe this day could ever come but let me ask:

What percentage of people say 50 years ago would have ever believed the day would come when The State would permit two men to marry or These same two men could adopt children?

Don't even comment on my post unless you answer that question please.

[The_Dude 1,142]

What percentage of people say 50 years ago would have ever believed the day would come when The State would permit two men to marry or These same two men could adopt children?

Don't even comment on my post unless you answer that question please.

Thats a good thing Danno, hopefully, we will continue moving towards a secular society.

[SMOKE 1,426]

A pedo? No. A creepy old guy? Yes, very much so.

good thing i didn't say anything about him going home, switching cars, & driving 5.3 miles the opposite direction to different fundraiser.

Edited August 24, 2011 by SMOKE

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you want to use statistics from an article that at the end includes a disclaimer which basically admits that you really can't get a good anything from the numbers because due to the nature of the subject it's hard to get honest answers just don't expect me to accept the number you're quoting.

I'll take the brain activity studies over prison interviews any day of the week but of course all they do is tell you what arouses the test subject. They don't tell you what other issues they may have, how many victims they have etc.

As to posting my own statistics, I honestly don't trust any statistic that can't be proven with cold-hard facts. I used to have a few good links for long-term sex offender recidivism which showed that only murderers serving life sentences had a lower re-offense rate than convicted sex offenders (the study followed offenders who were released over 15 years) but again while I agree with the results I accept that there could be offenders counted as re-offense free who simply had not been caught. I prefer to look at how my years of real life experience sync-up with any published reports.

It has been years since I was active in the Sex Offender Recovery Community, not because I don't believe in it but because it is difficult to make much headway with public perceptions scaring so many into hiding.

I personally know recovering offenders with decades since their last offense.

I personally know offenders who don't care that they hurt someone else.

I personally know Pedophiles who would never touch a child and are maintaining healthy adult relationships.

I have spend countless hours in therapeutic environments and in the "real world" with offenders of all sorts.

Comparing them & their recovery to alcoholism is spot on, it can be managed and generally is brought on by other issues.

Of course there are exceptions to this (as there are for everything) but the misguided barbarian attempts to create a sub-class has cast a net so wide that it is meaningless. The SO Registry has people who urinated in an ally behind a bar, skinny dipped after dark in the presence of other adults, had a child look into their apartment through the crack between drawn drapes as they walked nude from their bathroom to their bedroom after a shower. This whole Pedophile = Sex Offender is offensive and ignorant.

Am I a little biased, of course I am. I have seen the issues from all sides. As a parent I have the same concerns as everyone else but I chose to educate myself on the issues. I don't need to read about it from books and websites, I've lived it for many years. I'm closer to victims & offenders than many people are their neighbors.

So tell me again how studies done my people you don't even know under conditions that you can neither verify or confirm are effective invalidate over 2 decades of my life dealing with "those folks" on an almost daily basis...

So why would you bring up statistics and say that I am statistically wrong when you have no proof of a statistical or other concrete nature to support the statement?

Again, the article I posted is a literature review of qualitative and quantitative research conducted by numerous scientists and research institutions. It's a discursive discussion of what is currently known in the scientific and medical community about pedophilia and child sex abuse. It is specifically aimed at providing physicians with a better understanding of the issue. That it comes with a disclaimer is really neither here nor there - every research paper you find will cite the methodological limitations of the experimental research, it's standard in academic writing and it implies nothing untoward nor does it suggest that the work in question should be discounted out of hand because of it. If the disclaimer wasn't in there, neither you or I would know any different.

It is also quite clear that the research currently available is not completely definitive and that more is required. Again, this is also standard. It would be dishonest if it were not in there.

I agree with you about the arbitrariness of the sex offender's list (statutory rape and public urination have no place on there), but not about the nature of pedophilia and its links to criminal sexual behaviour. You simply can't expect anyone to take your alleged personal anecdotes over that of professional researchers.

When all the speculation is finished, I have no doubt that the Overton window has moved and we see this already with the sexualization of not just teens but children.

If we believe young teens are independent enough to decide if they wish to have sex, how far of a leap is it to grant them the right to decide "WHO" they want to have sex with?

Once the window has moved that far, (and we are nearly there now) certainly what was unthinkable will become ahh not so far out.

Certainly these movements will take time, in fact those who have been raised with the generic Christian influenced morals (all of us) will find it hard to believe this day could ever come but let me ask:

What percentage of people say 50 years ago would have ever believed the day would come when The State would permit two men to marry or These same two men could adopt children?

Don't even comment on my post unless you answer that question please.

Find another thread for your tangent, Danno.

Your fixation with homosexuality and gay marriage have nothing to do with the OP.

Edited August 24, 2011 by fishdude

[Danno 1,228]

Find another thread for your tangent, Danno.

Your fixation with homosexuality and gay marriage have nothing to do with the OP.

You cowardice in answering the question was not surprising.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You cowardice in answering the question was not surprising.

Blow it out your backside, Danno.

It's got nothing to do with the OP, however much you might want to try to inject into the discussion, or needle people to indulge you.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I agree with you about the arbitrariness of the sex offender's list (statutory rape and public urination have no place on there), but not about the nature of pedophilia and its links to criminal sexual behaviour. You simply can't expect anyone to take your alleged personal anecdotes over that of professional researchers.

If you want to demonstrate that Pedophilia is a precursor to criminal behavior then show me evidence of the absence of Pedophilia outside of the Sex Offender Community. You'll have a difficult time getting anyone to admit to having an attraction to kids simply because to admit such a thing would make them a target for much of the hate the is directed towards Sex Offenders because the two are often equated. This very fact makes it difficult to get any real usable numbers. If the brain study was expanded to include a sample from the population in general and include testing arousal based on images of kids then it would be more useful.

Just out of curiosity, what is alleged about my personal anecdotes? Are you implying that I am a liar?

One of the most honest statements I ever heard was from a counselor (Licensed Therapist) who said the scariest thing about your average Sex Offender to the "Average Person" is not how different they are but how similar we all are. If there wasn't such a stigma to having the urges or feelings then I believe more offenders would seek treatment BEFORE they ever offend. his is why we need to move beyond the fear and anger, so that together we can fix the vast majority of potential offenders thereby saving countless children. There is shame in being a victim so most never seek help. There is shame in having the desire and admitting to it makes you a monster to most never seek help. Sex Offenses (especially against kids) is the most under-reported crime in the US. The only way to reduce is't proliferation is to shine a light on the real issues and try to help those who would offend BEFORE they do.

Sure there are monsters out there by just like serial killers are a very small group within our culture so are the truly vicious Sexual Predators who embrace the offenses and look forward to another one.

I'm going to sign out of this thread as I've said just about everything there is to say and I doubt anyone is listening anyway.