Is it time to REDEFINE PEDOPHILES?

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Well Bob, if you'd read my post you wouldn't have asked that question. The statement was that pedophilia IS officially classified as a mental illness (e.g. by the ICD-10 and DSM) and that homosexuality USED TO BE classified as one too. To a layman (all of us here are, unless there are any neuroscientists or psychiatrists posting here) the logic is that that if one sexual preference (homosexuality) is not a mental illness, then another (pedophilia) can't be either. That may seem fine as far as it goes, but people do draw distinctions between homosexuality and things like like pedophilia (which is so far removed from anything that most people understand) and people who are sexually attracted to corpses, bin bags or animals etc. That has nothing to do with whether these things are or aren't classed as mental illnesses, since these determinations are made by research and by qualified people - however it does beg the question why homosexuality is no longer considered to be mental illness but pedophilia is. Is that the result of research or a shift in social attitudes towards it?

My question wasn't meant to argue with you, in fact I agree with the last sentence 100%

Sex isn't what defines a relationship, but a pedophile can't indulge any relationship of that kind with any child whatsoever - it is strictly prohibited by criminal law, a 40 year old can't date a 5 year old, nor can they have penetrative (or any other type of sex) with a child, nor can they look at pictures of naked kids on the internet, nor jerk off at home looking at the neighbours kids. It's all illegal. There is no middle ground on this at all.

My point was that an otherwise mentally healthy Pedophile (not saying the Pedophile part makes them unhealthy) would be cultivating relationships with adults and from these relationships they are just as likely to find an adult partner. There seems to be this assumption that a Pedophile can't have a healthy adult relationship. In the past I've found myself in relationships with women that I wasn't immediately physically attracted to but as I came to know them the overall attraction became the driving force.

Again I'll say that there are adults who physically resemble children in their build and can take the physical resemblance further by shaving/waxing. How is that different from someone only dating a particular race (being selective based on physical traits first) as long as the child-like appearance is an adult? So yes there are legal outlets for a Pedophile to fulfill the physical attraction, they don't involve kids. I've never heard a Pedophile say they were attracted of a child because of the deep intellectual conversation or such, it seems to be a physical thing. Even when someone says they're attracted to the child's "Innocence" they usually define the innocence in terms of physical traits.

[Zero Sum 305]

Exactly, Bob-

Even when someone says they're attracted to the child's "Innocence" they usually define the innocence in terms of physical traits.

That heavily implies something biological in determining that behavioral pattern. They can be the most outstanding member of society independent of what we're discussing... but if this indeed is the case, then its something that must be taken into consideration when arguing about what is normalcy and what is not.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I don't have the stomach to read this whole thread, but I want to know, so, what if the definition of pedophilia is redefined? What changes? No one in their right mind wants those folks around their children, nor is child porn acceptable.

It's not about "what changes" it's about understanding the differences.

Just like not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslim, not all Pedophiles are Sex Offenders and not all Sex Offenders are Pedophiles so to equal the two is wrong.

How many groups have been outcast and down-trodden using blanket phrases like "I don't want those folks/people around"?

As the father of 2 boys and 2 girls I don't want anyone around them that will hurt them but I also understand that if I isolate them from everyone who may hurt them then they will live a lonely isolated life.

Black used to be "those folks".

Gays used to be "those folks".

Some people currently classify Muslims as "those folks".

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My question wasn't meant to argue with you, in fact I agree with the last sentence 100%

My point was that an otherwise mentally healthy Pedophile (not saying the Pedophile part makes them unhealthy) would be cultivating relationships with adults and from these relationships they are just as likely to find an adult partner. There seems to be this assumption that a Pedophile can't have a healthy adult relationship. In the past I've found myself in relationships with women that I wasn't immediately physically attracted to but as I came to know them the overall attraction became the driving force.

Again I'll say that there are adults who physically resemble children in their build and can take the physical resemblance further by shaving/waxing. How is that different from someone only dating a particular race (being selective based on physical traits first) as long as the child-like appearance is an adult? So yes there are legal outlets for a Pedophile to fulfill the physical attraction, they don't involve kids. I've never heard a Pedophile say they were attracted of a child because of the deep intellectual conversation or such, it seems to be a physical thing. Even when someone says they're attracted to the child's "Innocence" they usually define the innocence in terms of physical traits.

Taking on the physical appearance isn't the same thing, it's pretend. Look at it this way - there are some guys out there who can dress up like women and pass them off quite convincingly, but at the end of the day they are still men. As a heterosexual, would you be happy with a pretend woman?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Now you'd probably have to share those studies. Links would be best.

Just for clarity, if the study and discussion and conclusions were about pedophiles, with those methodologies you describe above, then yes, the study would have a fundamental flaw. Is this the case? I doubt it. You may be obfuscating your own judgement here.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070920091209.htm

A new study being published in the September 15th issue of Biological Psychiatry is the first of its kind to use functional brain imaging to describe neural circuits contributing to pedophilia.

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI, Walter and colleagues report that pedophilic patients showed reduced activation of the hypothalamus, a brain region involved in regulating physiologic arousal and hormone release, as compared to healthy individuals when they were viewing sexually arousing pictures of adults.

Deficits of activation in the frontal cortex were associated with the extent of pedophilic behavior. In other words, when shown erotic pictures of adults, the brains of the pedophilic patients had reduced reactions in the pleasure center of the brain, indicating an altered sexual interest.

John H. Krystal, M.D., Editor of Biological Psychiatry and affiliated with both Yale University School of Medicine and the VA Connecticut Healthcare System, comments that, "the ability to intervene rationally in this disorder is limited by shortcomings in our understanding of its neurobiology. The findings provide clues to the complexity of this disorder, [and] this deficit may predispose individuals who are vulnerable to pedophilia to seek other forms of stimulation." It is important to acknowledge and consider however, that it is currently unknown "whether this pattern of brain activation is a risk factor for the development of pedophilia or a consequence of their pedophilic sexual experiences," according to Dr. Krystal, and future research will be needed.

One of the study's authors, Georg Northoff, M.D., Ph.D., adds, "[These findings] may open the door for better understanding the neurobiology of this disorder which is of forensic, criminal and public concern. Our results may thus be seen as the first step towards establishing a neurobiology of pedophilia which ultimately may contribute to the development of new and effective means of therapies for this debilitating disorder."

The article is "Pedophilia Is Linked to Reduced Activation in Hypothalamus and Lateral Prefrontal Cortex During Visual Erotic Stimulation" by Martin Walter, Joachim Witzel, Christine Wiebking, Udo Gubka, Michael Rotte, Kolja Schiltz, Felix Bermpohl, Claus Tempelmann, Bernhard Bogerts, Hans Jochen Heinze, and Georg Northoff. Drs. Walter, Wiebking, Schiltz, Bogerts and Northoff are with the Department of Psychiatry, Otto-von-Guericke University of Magdeburg, Germany, while Drs. Rotte, Tempelmann, and Heinze are with the Department of Neurology. Drs. Witzel and Gubka are affiliated with the State Hospital for Forensic Psychiatry of Saxonia Anhaltina, Germany. Dr. Bermpohl is with the Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy at Charité Medical School, University Medicine Berlin, Germany. The article appears in Biological Psychiatry, Volume 62, Issue 6 (September 15, 2007), published by Elsevier.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Paul, you may notice that the scientists still refer to it as a "disorder"

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Taking on the physical appearance isn't the same thing, it's pretend. Look at it this way - there are some guys out there who can dress up like women and pass them off quite convincingly, but at the end of the day they are still men. As a heterosexual, would you be happy with a pretend woman?

Not a fair comparison. Your "pretend woman" is missing some vital parts! The Pedophilic attraction is to the physical appearance not the deepness of their personality.

[Zero Sum 305]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070920091209.htm

A new study being published in the September 15th issue of Biological Psychiatry is the first of its kind to use functional brain imaging to describe neural circuits contributing to pedophilia.

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI, Walter and colleagues report that pedophilic patients showed reduced activation of the hypothalamus, a brain region involved in regulating physiologic arousal and hormone release, as compared to healthy individuals when they were viewing sexually arousing pictures of adults.

Deficits of activation in the frontal cortex were associated with the extent of pedophilic behavior. In other words, when shown erotic pictures of adults, the brains of the pedophilic patients had reduced reactions in the pleasure center of the brain, indicating an altered sexual interest.

John H. Krystal, M.D., Editor of Biological Psychiatry and affiliated with both Yale University School of Medicine and the VA Connecticut Healthcare System, comments that, "the ability to intervene rationally in this disorder is limited by shortcomings in our understanding of its neurobiology. The findings provide clues to the complexity of this disorder, [and] this deficit may predispose individuals who are vulnerable to pedophilia to seek other forms of stimulation." It is important to acknowledge and consider however, that it is currently unknown "whether this pattern of brain activation is a risk factor for the development of pedophilia or a consequence of their pedophilic sexual experiences," according to Dr. Krystal, and future research will be needed.

One of the study's authors, Georg Northoff, M.D., Ph.D., adds, "[These findings] may open the door for better understanding the neurobiology of this disorder which is of forensic, criminal and public concern. Our results may thus be seen as the first step towards establishing a neurobiology of pedophilia which ultimately may contribute to the development of new and effective means of therapies for this debilitating disorder."

The article is "Pedophilia Is Linked to Reduced Activation in Hypothalamus and Lateral Prefrontal Cortex During Visual Erotic Stimulation" by Martin Walter, Joachim Witzel, Christine Wiebking, Udo Gubka, Michael Rotte, Kolja Schiltz, Felix Bermpohl, Claus Tempelmann, Bernhard Bogerts, Hans Jochen Heinze, and Georg Northoff. Drs. Walter, Wiebking, Schiltz, Bogerts and Northoff are with the Department of Psychiatry, Otto-von-Guericke University of Magdeburg, Germany, while Drs. Rotte, Tempelmann, and Heinze are with the Department of Neurology. Drs. Witzel and Gubka are affiliated with the State Hospital for Forensic Psychiatry of Saxonia Anhaltina, Germany. Dr. Bermpohl is with the Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy at Charité Medical School, University Medicine Berlin, Germany. The article appears in Biological Psychiatry, Volume 62, Issue 6 (September 15, 2007), published by Elsevier.

So the brain activation, given those test conditions { adult images as the variable } showing depressed neuronal activity is flawed in experimental design?

I disagree, Paul. In fact, what that result tells us is something quite profound!

Decreased activation in this specific context, pedophile group vs control group shows that there indeed IS a biological basis for discrimination against a predominant sexual attraction to adults.

The study does not address the activation activity of these areas towards children. Is that why you conclude its flawed? Paul... that would be an additional study variable, and increases the potential for confounding factors in the analysis. Any responsible scientist would test this, indeed. But not simultaneously for fear of contaminating the results.

Hardly a flaw.

But I absolutely love this new direction you've taken in providing us with substance. Thank you!

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Paul, you may notice that the scientists still refer to it as a "disorder"

we call things disorders that we do not understand fully.

It's society's (and many times science's) way of dealing with things. At least temporarily explaining them until something more conslusive comes along.

Disorder by definition is someething that is out of the ordinary/irregular.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI, Walter and colleagues report that pedophilic patients showed reduced activation of the hypothalamus, a brain region involved in regulating physiologic arousal and hormone release, as compared to healthy individuals when they were viewing sexually arousing pictures of adults.

Deficits of activation in the frontal cortex were associated with the extent of pedophilic behavior. In other words, when shown erotic pictures of adults, the brains of the pedophilic patients had reduced reactions in the pleasure center of the brain, indicating an altered sexual interest.

I would expect a Pedophile to not be aroused by pictures of adults just as I'd expect a lesbian to not be aroused by provocative pictures of me. Personally I'm not aroused by naked pictures of excessively large women so I doubt my brain would release the hormones or show elevated activity in the same region.

Simplistic I know...

[Zero Sum 305]

I would expect a Pedophile to not be aroused by pictures of adults just as I'd expect a lesbian to not be aroused by provocative pictures of me. Personally I'm not aroused by naked pictures of excessively large women so I doubt my brain would release the hormones or show elevated activity in the same region.

Simplistic I know...

But to the point.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not a fair comparison. Your "pretend woman" is missing some vital parts! The Pedophilic attraction is to the physical appearance not the deepness of their personality.

I don't see why it's not a fair comparison. It's about what's real Vs. what's pretend. If it were only about a child's appearance why then are there so many news stories about pedophiles abducting and sexually abusing children? I realise that a lot of this is driven by media sensationalism, but why is it then that this happens? Is it just that those people who become child sex offenders can't find partners with an agreeable physical appearance?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

So the brain activation, given those test conditions { adult images as the variable } showing depressed neuronal activity is flawed in experimental design?

I disagree, Paul. In fact, what that result tells us is something quite profound!

Decreased activation in this specific context, pedophile group vs control group shows that there indeed IS a biological basis for discrimination against a predominant sexual attraction to adults.

The study does not address the activation activity of these areas towards children. Is that why you conclude its flawed? Paul... that would be an additional study variable, and increases the potential for confounding factors in the analysis. Any responsible scientist would test this, indeed. But not simultaneously for fear of contaminating the results.

Hardly a flaw.

See, to me that is flawed. They could have just as easily ran another test group after this study was completed. With the technology available, there's no reason why not to run a similar study with alternative imagery that might seem more 'flattering' to one who is considered to be attracted to young children. As I said earlier though, there are some moral boundaries that would have to be crossed.

The only conclusion that they gained from this study was that there was less activity in those areas of the brain when they were attempting to stimulate them with adult imagery. While it's a start, it's hardly anything to do off of. They even state that they cannot tell at this point any difference between someone who was abused or not abused at one point or another.

This is one of those situations that we won't get any type of conclusion until a full study, with a larger test group is able to be done.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

we call things disorders that we do not understand fully.

It's society's (and many times science's) way of dealing with things. At least temporarily explaining them until something more conslusive comes along.

Disorder by definition is someething that is out of the ordinary/irregular.

Yes Paul, but they refer to it as a disorder that requires some sort of "therapy" to remedy it.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Yes Paul, but they refer to it as a disorder that requires some sort of "therapy" to remedy it.

Not exactly. Any psychologist/psychiatrist that claims they can remedy someone with pedophiia is lying to themselves and is completely dishonest in their practice.