The Pope must die, says extremist

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Then there was Ghandi and MTL Jr. I guess they got no where with being persistant in reaching their goal in a peacefull way? Any ways this is one of thoes discussions that have no end.

In India, armed revolutionaries were dropping British officers like flies well before Gandhi ever showed up on the political map. Gandhi came in, got the boys to stop firing, and used that leverage to negotiate with the British. The British knew that they had a choice between Gandhi and the armed revolutionaries (we'd call them terrorists today) and they chose to deal with Gandhi and the political movement centred around Gandhian philosophy. Gandhi's non-violence and non-cooperation were always backed up with the implicit threat of more dead British officers if he were to let the revolutionaries loose. The British knew the threat existed and they knew no one in India, not even Gandhi, would shed any tears for dead British officers were it to come to that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then there was Ghandi and MTL Jr. I guess they got no where with being persistant in reaching their goal in a peacefull way? Any ways this is one of thoes discussions that have no end.

In India, armed revolutionaries were dropping British officers like flies well before Gandhi ever showed up on the political map. Gandhi came in, got the boys to stop firing, and used that leverage to negotiate with the British. The British knew that they had a choice between Gandhi and the armed revolutionaries (we'd call them terrorists today) and they chose to deal with Gandhi and the political movement centred around Gandhian philosophy. Gandhi's non-violence and non-cooperation were always backed up with the implicit threat of more dead British officers if he were to let the revolutionaries loose. The British knew the threat existed and they knew no one in India, not even Gandhi, would shed any tears for dead British officers were it to come to that.

At least we didn't bankrupt your country with massive imports of heroin - always surprised the chinese don't carry more of a grudge about that. We grew the heroin in India I believe..

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... always surprised the chinese don't carry more of a grudge about that. We grew the heroin in India I believe..

Me too, and yes you did. I wonder why they don't grow it any more, could make someone a lot of money

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

... always surprised the chinese don't carry more of a grudge about that. We grew the heroin in India I believe..

Me too, and yes you did. I wonder why they don't grow it any more, could make someone a lot of money

Well Afghanistan supplies 90% of the world supply now - and that's supposedly "under control"

A bit like those public information TV ads from a couple years ago that suggested that buying bootleg music and movies helps support organised crime, and thence terrorism. If that's true, I wonder why it is I pass street sellers on the way to work, not 100 yards from NY Penn Station (AKA a major terrorist target) selling blatantly pirated DVD's.

[I'm Gone 60]

maybe we need to bring Rodney King into this

I think the Muslims would like to, but they want to be the police and the Pope be Rodney King. LOL

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Then there was Ghandi and MTL Jr. I guess they got no where with being persistant in reaching their goal in a peacefull way? Any ways this is one of thoes discussions that have no end.

In India, armed revolutionaries were dropping British officers like flies well before Gandhi ever showed up on the political map. Gandhi came in, got the boys to stop firing, and used that leverage to negotiate with the British. The British knew that they had a choice between Gandhi and the armed revolutionaries (we'd call them terrorists today) and they chose to deal with Gandhi and the political movement centred around Gandhian philosophy. Gandhi's non-violence and non-cooperation were always backed up with the implicit threat of more dead British officers if he were to let the revolutionaries loose. The British knew the threat existed and they knew no one in India, not even Gandhi, would shed any tears for dead British officers were it to come to that.

At least we didn't bankrupt your country with massive imports of heroin - always surprised the chinese don't carry more of a grudge about that. We grew the heroin in India I believe..

Opium actually. Also, opium is processed to make heroin. Grow poppies, harvest the opium and process it into heroin. Heroin wasn't discovered until 1874.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then there was Ghandi and MTL Jr. I guess they got no where with being persistant in reaching their goal in a peacefull way? Any ways this is one of thoes discussions that have no end.

In India, armed revolutionaries were dropping British officers like flies well before Gandhi ever showed up on the political map. Gandhi came in, got the boys to stop firing, and used that leverage to negotiate with the British. The British knew that they had a choice between Gandhi and the armed revolutionaries (we'd call them terrorists today) and they chose to deal with Gandhi and the political movement centred around Gandhian philosophy. Gandhi's non-violence and non-cooperation were always backed up with the implicit threat of more dead British officers if he were to let the revolutionaries loose. The British knew the threat existed and they knew no one in India, not even Gandhi, would shed any tears for dead British officers were it to come to that.

At least we didn't bankrupt your country with massive imports of heroin - always surprised the chinese don't carry more of a grudge about that. We grew the heroin in India I believe..

Opium actually. Also, opium is processed to make heroin. Grow poppies, harvest the opium and process it into heroin. Heroin wasn't discovered until 1874.

True indeed - hence the term "opium wars".

[incanada1234 0]

would it be wrong for me to start thinking that islam is a violent religion?

I'm worried when people DON'T think it's a violent religion.

Note to Heina - you should read all of the OT, it's quite amazing all the prophecies that are named and fulfilled. It's hard to get through some parts (Leviticus!), but well worth it for all the history you learn about the roots of Christianity.

[I'm Gone 60]

This story doesn't go along with the thread, but I figured as good a place to tell it as any.

Yesterday I'm in a store kneeling down taking a look at a pair of tennis shoes and as I start to stand up and turn around I run face to face to a woman that I assume was Muslim or getting an early start on Halloween.

She was dressed all in black and even her hands were covered with black gloves and all you could see were her eyes. Looked like the Grim Reaper's daughter. Had I ran into her on the street at night in the same way I probably would have ruined a pair of underwear. LOL

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

would it be wrong for me to start thinking that islam is a violent religion?

I'm worried when people DON'T think it's a violent religion.

OPINION

Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, the Pope -- Who's Next?

By Claus Christian Malzahn in Berlin

The pope has apologized for the outrage amongst Muslims sparked by his recent comments. But the episode proves once again that criticizing Islam is dangerous.

Twenty years ago in the German city of Bremen, Dutch comedian Rudi Carrell's life depended on police protection. His offense? In a satirical program on German television, he let fly with a lewd joke about the then leader of the Iranian revolution Ayatollah Khomeini. Mass demonstrations in Iran -- orchestrated, no doubt, by the government -- were the result. The threats of violence led to an apology by Carrell, and he never again made a joke about any Muslim -- at least not on television.

In February 1989, the Ayatollah then released a fatwa calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie for his novel "The Satanic Verses." The book, he and other Muslim leaders claimed, was a grave misrepresentation of Islam. Rushdie's Japanese translator lost his life as a result of the fatwa and Rushdie himself went into hiding, though the Iranian leadership distanced itself from the fatwa in 1998. There remain, however, a number of fanatical Muslims who yearn to see Rushdie dead.

Feminist and Islam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the former Dutch parliamentarian who recently left Holland, also lives under threat of murder. In addition to a number of interesting books about the oppression faced by women in the Muslim world, she also wrote the screenplay for the short film "Submission." In one scene, a verse from the Koran -- demanding that women bend to the will of their husbands -- is projected onto a woman's naked body. The film was provocative, and the filmmaker Theo van Gogh paid for it with his life. He was killed on the streets of Amsterdam by a Muslim fanatic.

And then there's Flemming Rose, the Danish editor who a year ago published a series of Muhammad caricatures in his newspaper. Months after they originally appeared, the Muslim world erupted in protest against the drawings. He too must fear for his life.

One thing should be kept in mind, however: The often violent protests that erupted in the Muslim world in the wake of the cartoon controversy have often been manipulated and fuelled by Islamists. The bile currently being flung at the pope is no different.

But the attacks against the pope are especially grotesque. The severe criticism -- often coupled with threats of violence -- directed at the speech held last Tuesday by Benedict XVI is not just an attack on the head of the Catholic Church. The malicious twisting of the pope's words and the absurd allegations made by representatives of Islam represent a frontal attack on open religious and philosophical dialogue.

That so many in the Muslim world joined the protests against the pope merely show just how influential Islamist extremist groups have become. The political goal of the Islamists is clear: any dispute between Christianity and Islam must obey the rules handed down by political Islamism.

Bending to this demand would be a mistake -- indeed it would be tantamount to turning one's back on freedom of expression and opinion. What will come next? Perhaps a complaint that Allah feels insulted by the numerous European women who don bikinis during a summer trip to the beach. It could be anything really -- militant Islamists will always find something. But the response needs to be firm. Freedom of speech, after all, is a vital value and needs to be defended. Any attempt to make political speech hostage to some imagined will of God must be resisted.

There are -- few -- critical voices that should be taken seriously when it comes to the pope's comments. Shouldn't Benedict XVI have known that the quote he included in his speech -- a passage he himself described as "brusque" -- might be misunderstood? Couldn't he have made his meaning a bit clearer? Even if he had, it should be welcomed by all, including leftist atheists and agnostics, that we now have a pope who can pose challenging academic questions. In any case, a close reading of his speech reveals not a single insult directed at a single Muslim.

And there's no reason to respond to every presumed insult. Consider an example from Denmark. Recently, a paper there published a number of rather tasteless Holocaust cartoons which had been shown in Tehran. The reaction of Copenhagen's rabbi was instructive when considered against the bloody response to the Muhammad cartoons -- outrage which ended up costing lives. When asked if he would call for protests, the rabbi merely said: "You know, I've seen worse.

DER SPIEGEL

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

The unholy past of the Muslim cleric demanding the Pope's execution

At 39, Anjem Choudary should be a symbol of success for his peers. Born into the working-class family of a market trader in Welling on the outskirts of London, he has risen - thanks to the opportunities offered by the British education system - to become a qualified lawyer.

But it is unlikely his old school will be inviting him to be guest speaker on prize-giving day. Their former pupil is not famous for his elegant oratory in court.

Instead, the articulate Mr Choudary preaches hatred and murder in the streets of Britain to the next generation of young, impressionable Muslims.

This week he stood outside Westminster Cathedral in central London to call for the execution of the Pope as punishment for 'insulting Islam'. He fulminated against Pope Benedict XVl, adding: "Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

It's a long way from his days as a medical student at Southampton University, where, friends say, he drank, indulged in casual sex, smoked cannabis and even took LSD. He called himself 'Andy' and was famed for his ability to drink a pint of cider in a few seconds.

One former acquaintance said: "At parties, like the rest of us, he was rarely without a joint. The morning after one party, I can remember him getting all the roaches (butts) from the spliffs we had smoked the night before out of the ashtrays, cutting them up and making a new one out of the leftovers.

"He would say he was a Muslim and was proud of his Pakistani heritage, but he did-n't seem to attend any of the mosques in Southampton, and I only knew of him having white girlfriends. He certainly shared a bed with them."

On one occasion, 'Andy' and a friend took LSD together. The friend said: "We took far too much and were hallucinating for 20 hours."

The only sign of religious fervour came in flashes of anger over Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses. A friend from that time said: "You didn't want to get him started on that. He would go on and on about the fatwa and he supported calls for the book to be banned. But he would have a glass of cider in his hand when he was carrying on about it."

Choudary failed his first-year exams, switched from medicine to commercial law and did his final year as a law student at Guildford, from 1990 to 1991, before moving to London.

There his legal career stalled briefly and he filled in his time by teaching English as a foreign language in one of the many colleges off Oxford Street.

But eventually, he found a position with a firm of solicitors and began completing his qualifications to become a lawyer. His personal life blossomed too.

In 1996, aged 29, he married Rubana Akhtar and started a family. The couple, who settled in East London, have a daughter aged eight, and sons aged six and one.

Then he met the cleric Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed at a mosque in Woolwich. Bakri, who is now banned from returning to Britain from Lebanon, had formed Al Muhajiroun, committed to the creation of a worldwide Islamic state, and Choudary quickly became a leading light in the group and its successor organisation, Al Ghurabaa.

He is no longer a practising solicitor and has left his wife and children to concentrate on his extreme brand of Islam. It was Choudary who organised the Danish Embassy protests over the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed earlier this year, at which demonstrators dressed as suicide bombers and banners proclaimed: 'Behead Those Who Insult Islam'.

He lauded the September 11 hijackers as 'magnificent martyrs' and praised Asif Hanif, the British suicide bomber who killed three in Tel Aviv in 2003.

After the July 7 atrocities in London, he vowed he would not tell the police if he knew a terror attack was being planned and urged Muslims to defend themselves against perceived attacks by 'whatever means they have at their disposal'.

His shocking pronouncements could be dismissed by some as the rantings of a mind clouded by religious fervour but Choudary has an audience and, at a time of increasing disaffection among young British Muslims, his activities are carefully monitored by Special Branch.

A security source said: "He is not seen as premier league because he is so conspicuous. He is seen as an irritant but with a potential to inspire impressionable youngsters to go that one stage further."

Despite his hatred of all things British - he says: "If British means adopting British values, then I don't think we can adopt British values. I'm a Muslim living in Britain. I have a British passport, but that's a travel document to me" - he and his family live on state benefits.

Rubana is said by friends to claim £1,700 a month in housing benefit and income support while Choudary has also claimed £202 a month in income support.

Yesterday, Choudary declined to talk about his past dissolute life, dismissing it as 'irrelevant'. He said: "I was born a Muslim and I have done my best to be a good Muslim all my life."

And the drugs and alcohol? "That's not really part of what's happening in the world today. Anyway, it is all fabricated. It is complete nonsense.

"My personal family situation and background is irrelevant to the situation in which we live. I can talk about politics and Islam but I don't want to talk about my personal life."

He was too busy to answer any further questions. He now belongs to a sect he refuses to name and continues to deny any direct involvement in terrorism.

In a recent interview, he said: "Do I know how to make liquid explosives? No, I'm not military-trained. I can make an omelette."

A flippant remark from one whose extremism is so laced with threats of violence.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

time to boot that freeloader out of the country.

[mawilson 2,133]

At 39, Anjem Choudary ...

Damn. Anjem, not Paul. I guess Paul C is his brother?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Rubana is said by friends to claim £1,700 a month in housing benefit and income support while Choudary has also claimed £202 a month in income support.

Must be nice to lounge around all day preaching hate while on the dole.

[homesick_american 1]

Rubana is said by friends to claim £1,700 a month in housing benefit and income support while Choudary has also claimed £202 a month in income support.

Must be nice to lounge around all day preaching hate while on the dole.

Yet another reason to move back to the USA; I'm tired of working so people like that can collect MY tax money. I certainly don't get out what I put into the NHS and I don't get any other tax credits or benefits; I'm not even ALLOWED to go onto the dole, but hey...these idiots can and the Home Office never even thinks about deporting them. It's disgusting.