Israeli-Arab Crisis Approaching

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not to derail this thread, but I'm curious why you felt the need to emphasize his sexual orientation. You've mentioned Justin the gay a couple of times before.

Do you introduce him to people as "Justin, my gay assistant"?

I usually mention Justin in threads where I'm accused of homophobia. The current reference to his sexuality is intended to reintroduce him as the same person I have referred to before, as well as mention that he is also Jewish. He's not ashamed of being gay or Jewish.

What are you trying to say? "I'm not a homophobic bigot because I have a gay assistant"? Are trying to pull a Donald Trump? "I have a great relationship with the gays?"

It's not a matter of what I'm trying to say. I said what I said. Do you employ any Muslims, gay or otherwise?

[_Simpson_ 250]

The people co-habitated there for centuries before all this

They still do...oh wait that's just in Israel.

[mawilson 2,133]

Israel's leaders are concerned about the "Arab Spring" because they have relied for far too long on artificial regimes, propped up by the west that are now crumbling.

They are concerned because the Arabs' idea of "democracy" is not much of an improvement

over places such as totalitarian North Korea, whose official name, of course, is the

"DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of Korea".

When "artificial" dictator regimes fall, the likes of Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood

tend to take over and impose 15th century style theocracies on their citizens.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Are all nations "conceived in terror" terrorist nations?

Do you then consider the United States a terrorist nation?

Conceived in terror is only part of the equation I've expressed to be a part of Israel's problem. It also continues to use terror as a nation building tactic. As stated, Israel continues to appropriate land that does not belong to it while bullying those who protest their rogue actions.

They still do...oh wait that's just in Israel.

Have you entered into a treaty with a local NA tribe to concede your property back to them?

[mawilson 2,133]

Well, that was part of what was so curious, imo. Scandal posted about how Israel is entitled to the land it occupies and not one person, other than myself questioned that notion. I was immediately attacked for it. Is it taboo to speak in opposition of that view? On what basis is it an acceptable notion?

Presumably on the same basis that you think Palestinians are entitled to it: the land belongs to the people who live there and not to someone who comes in with a bigger gun and takes it from them.

If you don't accept this basic premise, you should concede that the land now belongs to Israel because they took it from whomever was there before.

If you do... well, like it or not, 5 million Israelis live there now. It's their land too. If your solution is to simply kick them out, you're a hypocrite.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

They are concerned because the Arabs' idea of "democracy" is not much of an improvement

over places such as totalitarian North Korea, whose official name, of course, is the

"DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of Korea".

When "artificial" dictator regimes fall, the likes of Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood

tend to take over and impose 15th century style theocracies on their citizens.

Frankly, Israel's idea of democracy leaves much to be desired. It's not the same democracy we think of in America, unless you believe in the supremacy of one faith over others, that granting citizenship based on religion to assert a religious dominance, and the taking of land that is not yours to benefit members of one group while depriving other groups are democratic tendencies.

I'm sure you don't believe any of those democratic policies since you don't believe in religion, right, Ma?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Presumably on the same basis that you think Palestinians are entitled to it: the land belongs to the people who live there and not to someone who comes in with a bigger gun and takes it from them.

If you don't accept this basic premise, you should concede that the land now belongs to Israel because they took it from whomever was there before.

If you do... well, like it or not, 5 million Israelis live there now. It's their land too. If your solution is to simply kick them out, you're a hypocrite.

If you don't support kicking people off their land, then you're more of a hypocrite than you already are by supporting the religious right of Israel to exist. They routinely kick people out.

If mere numbers give you rights, then think of how many angry Arabs there are in the region.

[Golden Gate 530]

They still do...oh wait that's just in Israel.

?

[mawilson 2,133]

I'm sure you don't believe any of those democratic policies since you don't believe in religion, right, Ma?

Right. I believe in equal rights for all citizens.

[mawilson 2,133]

If you don't support kicking people off their land, then you're more of a hypocrite than you already are by supporting the religious right of Israel to exist. They routinely kick people out.

Kicking people out is wrong, but please don't bring religion into this. Judaism

does not play a dominant role in Israel's governance. Israel is a secular state,

albeit one whose religious parties have more influence than I'd prefer.

[_Simpson_ 250]

How do religious ties that didn't exist for centuries override the property rights of people who had their land taken from them by Europeans whose goal was to drive out the non-Jews to create a Jewish homeland? Tell me, where else on earth do you support the supremacy of one religion as a basis for nation building?

Are you trying to make the argument that the significance of this land doesn't play into the unification of Islam on this issue?

The Zionists shipped my family off their land and want to deprive us of the right to return that they believe is the entitlement of their Jewish brethren. It is a fundamental policy of the Israeli government to maintain Jewish rule over an intended minority of non-Jewish residents. Is that ok with you, too? If so, in what other nation do you support the dominance of one religion over all others? Saudi Arabia?

I dont give Israel a free ride. I want a solution for today and shipping them off is not the answer, you have to know that. As for your second point, no its not. Whats your solution?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Kicking people out is wrong, but please don't bring religion into this. Judaism

does not play a dominant role in Israel's governance. Israel is a secular state,

albeit one whose religious parties have more influence than I'd prefer.

Israel is a state that grants citizenship preference to Jews while limiting citizenship rights for non-Jews. There is nothing secular about that. Even the claims to entitlement are based on religion. Israel is a Jewish state that wishes itself a secular democracy,

My link

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

There is no issue on this board that doesn't have multiple members arguing at least two sides - except this one. I'm wondering what has happened that is stifling dissent. I know when IR5 posts something on this subject that scandal disagrees with, scandal openly bullies him, threatening their friendship unless he recants his opinion, which he does. I'm just wondering if there is more of that sort of thing going on behind the scenes since I don't spend time on the off-VJ gathering sites that I hear about.

No nation has the right to exist. That is an emotional argument, not one that resides in fact, law, or history. Nations have risen and fallen by their ability to defend their borders or by their recognition as a nation. A right to exist is en ethereal matter, not one that can be made legitimate by the weight of opinion.

The nutjobs that control Israel are inadvertently plotting its destruction. The rest of us can just sit back and watch.

I respect Scandal, he doesn't bully me. He gets emotional over some issues and I don't try to rip his head off. I have had many of the feelings that he expresses at earlier stages of my life, so I get it. These days I figure that killing people sucks no matter who they are. Killing is easy, bringing them back, now that's where it's at. Even Hamas is moving to return under the PA and Israel is negotiating and having discussions with Hamas in Cairo over various issues. Reality and rhetoric frequently are in opposition. People change, it will take time for fear to dissolve in the light of reason. Most people have never met a Palestinian, they act as if they are some kind of inhuman monster, they act as if they don't have feelings, they act in many ways to dehumanize and deligitimize them as if they are a bunch of Johnny-Come-Latelys. If things don't work out, I have news for you, the River Jordan is drying up and YOU should know EXACTLY what that means. HE runs the show, though Man fails to grasp that.

[_Simpson_ 250]

I respect Scandal, he doesn't bully me. He gets emotional over some issues and I don't try to rip his head off. I have had many of the feelings that he expresses at earlier stages of my life, so I get it. These days I figure that killing people sucks no matter who they are. Killing is easy, bringing them back, now that's where it's at. Even Hamas is moving to return under the PA and Israel is negotiating and having discussions with Hamas in Cairo over various issues. Reality and rhetoric frequently are in opposition. People change, it will take time for fear to dissolve in the light of reason. Most people have never met a Palestinian, they act as if they are some kind of inhuman monster, they act as if they don't have feelings, they act in many ways to dehumanize and deligitimize them as if they are a bunch of Johnny-Come-Latelys. If things don't work out, I have news for you, the River Jordan is drying up and YOU should know EXACTLY what that means. HE runs the show, though Man fails to grasp that.

Simply not true, although this seems to be how lefties interpret it. I think who most people consider monsters are the Palestinian people who support and carry out Hamas type tactics.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I would have more respect for scandal and his positions if he didn't run away when I show up

And, indeed, scandal does bully you, IR5. It certainly reads that way when he's alpha maleing on you and you're taking back your words at his demand. If you don't want it to look like that, stand up for yourself when he disagrees with you. Sorry, just sayin'. No one should be treated like that on the basis of friendship; everyone has the right to their own opinion and true friends respect that.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Sofiyya