Johnson's War on Poverty

[rika60607 215]

Also, Slim, I agree with you that children conceived while on welfare should not lead to increase in welfare benefits. They should get nothing or even cause decrease of benefits (provided that free or nearly free abortion is available).

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

OK, so they say it's actually $227K. I personally think it is utterly bogus - you can raise a child to 18 yo on much less. Now if you factor in all the indirect costs, then may be it costs that much...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-09/u-s-child-born-in-2010-may-cost-226-920-to-raise-usda-says.html

From your link.

"Households that make less spend less, USDA researchers said. A family earning less than $57,600 a year is likely to spend $163,440 in 2010 dollars to rear a child, while parents earning more than $99,730 may pay $377,040, according to the study."

So, what about a family living on, say, $20,000.00? Cut that 163K in half? Get to 81.5K. Say it's 100K. All of a sudden, we're talking $450.00/month. The cost quoted includes housing as the largest portion of the calculation (roughly a third of the cost) which people on welfare typically don't shoulder. Take a third off that $450.00 and now you're looking at $300.00.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Mr. Big Dog

[The_Dude 1,142]

Care to back that up with any real numbers or are we simply going with your opinion?

According to research at Davidson university, crime costs taxpayers $1.7 Trillion (Source). According to the government, we currently spend $700 billion on welfare (Source). Now you want to try and say that criminals aren't as much of a danger to our the well being of Americans. Truth is, criminals are the biggest waste of time and money in this country.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

According to research at Davidson university, crime costs taxpayers $1.7 Trillion (Source). According to the government, we currently spend $700 billion on welfare (Source). Now you want to try and say that criminals aren't as much of a danger to our the well being of Americans. Truth is, criminals are the biggest waste of time and money in this country.

well, i'd blame it more on things that we consider 'criminal' that should not be (drugs for an example). That and the ridiculous nature of the appeals process.

[The_Dude 1,142]

well, i'd blame it more on things that we consider 'criminal' that should not be (drugs for an example). That and the ridiculous nature of the appeals process.

I can't seem to find any data that I can post that is newer than 2001, but the cost of drug crime is often bloated because they try and quantify lost productivity in business as a cost associated. It's a valid and valuable statistic, however, that component is not included in other cost statistics so it makes it difficult to compare.

[slim 1,523]

Oh, I could not claim to know ALL the bennies they can get (although, I can imagine that school lunches in poor areas must be unhealthy #######).

You may not know, but I can guarantee you they do!

Do you think single moms care about how healthy their kids' meals are?

Then I realized, may be it is not their car, but a borrowed car.

If they're smart enough to borrow a car, couldn't they be smart enough to borrow a job?

then realized, the lady was much older than me, may be she'd break her back if she tried to walk and carry.

So the old lady who's had her whole life to work and save, make something of herself in retirement, she needs our help? It's our fault she didn't plan properly?

Bottom line, people who are not in that system often make a lot of wrong assumptions.

But we make a lot of right assumptions too.

As for the wedding ring comment - it is silly. No everyone has to be married to their partners and not every married man wears a ring. Nothing wrong with it either.

Why is it silly for an able-bodied male to support his female partner and children?

What's silly is to pay all of them to remain unmarried.

According to research at Davidson university, crime costs taxpayers $1.7 Trillion (Source). According to the government, we currently spend $700 billion on welfare (Source). Now you want to try and say that criminals aren't as much of a danger to our the well being of Americans. Truth is, criminals are the biggest waste of time and money in this country.

Your crime source is a study that "estimates all of the direct and indirect costs of every type of crime for the entire nation." It's an estimate. Furthermore, it says it "doubles" more traditional statistics.

Then, your welfare source posts numbers that are from the federal budget. Did you forget states, counties, municipalities, etc., also pay welfare?

If you're going to make a comparison, at least do it fairly. Accurately wouldn't hurt either.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Your crime source is a study that "estimates all of the direct and indirect costs of every type of crime for the entire nation." It's an estimate. Furthermore, it says it "doubles" more traditional statistics.

Then, your welfare source posts numbers that are from the federal budget. Did you forget states, counties, municipalities, etc., also pay welfare?

If you're going to make a comparison, at least do it fairly. Accurately wouldn't hurt either.

Actually Slim, once again, you're wrong. Look at the graph, right below it, you can click federal, state, or local data. You can isolate each sub-set, but I had it set on the aggregate numbers. Even if the numbers double more traditional numbers, $850 billion per year is still higher than $750 billion per year. So a criminal is lower than a welfare recipient in terms of status, and in terms of what a waste to society they are.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

well, i'd blame it more on things that we consider 'criminal' that should not be (drugs for an example).

Why are you hating on the Prison Corporations? They're people, too.

[rika60607 215]

Yes, I do. I would if I was a single mom. Wouldn't you care for your children's health regardless of your baby momma's presence?

Do you think single moms care about how healthy their kids' meals are?

They system is flawed, for sure, but it should not be cancelled altogether and this whole idea of people on welfare having such great awesome easy lives is entirely bogus.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Yes, I do. I would if I was a single mom. Wouldn't you care for your children's health regardless of your baby momma's presence?

They system is flawed, for sure, but it should not be cancelled altogether and this whole idea of people on welfare having such great awesome easy lives is entirely bogus.

Good thing is, Welfare recipients are not as big of bottom feeding anchors on society as criminals! I do agree with you taht it is a bad system that needs to be fixed. Something drastic needs to be done to overhaul our welfare and unemployment systems.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

They system is flawed, for sure, but it should not be cancelled altogether and this whole idea of people on welfare having such great awesome easy lives is entirely bogus.

i think from your experiences and the hardships you've faced in actually working hard, you want it to be bogus.

Sad part is though, it's not. I said it in an earlier post. People on welfare have it better than people make even more than minimum wage.

[The_Dude 1,142]

i think from your experiences and the hardships you've faced in actually working hard, you want it to be bogus.

Sad part is though, it's not. I said it in an earlier post. People on welfare have it better than people make even more than minimum wage.

Paul, the problem with our welfare and unemployment system is that in incentivizes the wrong behavior. Take a look at Canada's system.

[slim 1,523]

Actually Slim, once again, you're wrong. Look at the graph, right below it, you can click federal, state, or local data. You can isolate each sub-set, but I had it set on the aggregate numbers. Even if the numbers double more traditional numbers, $850 billion per year is still higher than $750 billion per year. So a criminal is lower than a welfare recipient in terms of status, and in terms of what a waste to society they are.

If your study takes into account all the loss from fraud and that sort of stuff... why don't your welfare numbers take into account lost wages, taxes, etc?

[The_Dude 1,142]

If your study takes into account all the loss from fraud and that sort of stuff... why don't your welfare numbers take into account lost wages, taxes, etc?

####### are you talking about Slim? Keep throwing out red herring all you like, but I discounted the study to reflect what more traditional studies have found, and juxtaposed that against the welfare recipient numbers. In my world, 850 billion is still greater than 750 billion. Nice try though, but criminals are still a bigger burden on Americans than welfare recipients.

[Golden Gate 530]

There's a HUGE difference in people who have worked hard and then try to go on welfare after the fact versus people who've spent their whole lives on the system.

Remember, my whole point has been cradle to grave and the ability.

Remember, when everything you need is taken care of and then you have disposable income on top of that.

There are literally people out there who get section 8, medicaid, food stampls, W.I.C., and a welfare check every month. When most of your primary ####### is taken care of, you'd be surprised what you can 'afford.'

Drive around some of the really poor neighborhoods sometimes and you'll see run down houses, but nicer cars, nike sneakers, etc. It's actually pathetic sometimes.

Yes. There is generational poverty - those who have been on it for generations, and basically start having babies in high school, which keeps perpetuating it, and there is situational poverty - those who have fallen on hard times because of job loss, getting ill or whatever. To me, those of the second category deserve some kind of safety net. More than likely, they are on it only temporarily, until they can change their situation.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Golden Gate