Deporting the bad and letting the good stay

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Like Tourism which is a MAJOR income producer in our economy? Yeah.. lets push the rest of this stinking economy off a cliff ...

????? The economy was clicking along just fine with the highest number of illegal aliens we ever had in the US... maybe going after them is part of what crashed the economy?

Ya right, going after illegals helped crash the economy and then pigs grew wings.

[Used to be broken 147]

Are you serious? The very fact that there is cheap and illegal labor keeps the labor market from functioning in a way that makes wages more favorable for the worker. Employers are not inclined to raise wages unless labor becomes scarce and people refuse to work for low wages and/or under poor conditions. Illegals fill a need because they are willing to undercut wages and work in poor conditions. Their presence in our markets due to wages, opportunities and benefits (due to illegal loving) here being more attractive than those where they come from is self-perpetuating.

Yeah in a world before outsourcing and the demise of our manufacturing industry. If US Companies cannot find cheap enough labor they move the whole factory outside the US. At least with undocumented work force we still have some stimulation of the economy, rents, goods and services purchases etc.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Like Tourism which is a MAJOR income producer in our economy? Yeah.. lets push the rest of this stinking economy off a cliff ...

????? The economy was clicking along just fine with the highest number of illegal aliens we ever had in the US... maybe going after them is part of what crashed the economy?

I'm old enough to remember when the economy clicked along even better when there were very few illegals in the US due to raids on employers and mass deportations. That's what we need to happen here again.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yeah in a world before outsourcing and the demise of our manufacturing industry. If US Companies cannot find cheap enough labor they move the whole factory outside the US. At least with undocumented work force we still have some stimulation of the economy, rents, goods and services purchases etc.

Wow, are you grabbing at straws. Wishing for a world based on illegal labor so that producers can have some hope of selling something, are you? Meanwhile, our tax base is eroding and low wages are not a God-send.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Hence removing the bad apples from the barrel is not a bad idea... it will allow the legalized good apples to contribute in this reformatted labor market where realistically... unemployed John Connor will not likely seek employment. And by removing the bad apples I also include a smarter way of not allowing apples into the barrel for it to increase fruit rotting... this involves a little more active enforcement but also a little more proactive foreign policy that does not simply export our profiteering motivations to places where the labor continues to be cheap, thereby perpetuating foreign economies that drive the illegal immigration to our borders in the first place.

IMO, it goes way beyond that. We must look at the bigger picture of labor in this country and how to sustain a healthy job market which in turn maintains a healthy economy. We can't even get there when we've got fans of Free Market Capitalism championing the unrestrained freedom of companies to look beyond our borders for labor, but these same Free Market Capitalist fanboys want to restrict who can work in this country. It defies not only logic, but their own ideology. So we continue to squabble over the little guy, meanwhile the corporations are laughing all the way to the bank. It's a winner and loser mentality and a race to the bottom.

[Zero Sum 305]

Yeah in a world before outsourcing and the demise of our manufacturing industry. If US Companies cannot find cheap enough labor they move the whole factory outside the US. At least with undocumented work force we still have some stimulation of the economy, rents, goods and services purchases etc.

Unfortunately, plenty of US Companies move overseas even at times of record profits. It seems the greed doesn't cause enough outrage in relation to scapegoats that are here as a result of X, Y, and Z reasons.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

For unskilled labor, that is rarely ever the case. Look at many rural areas across this country and you'll see the numbers of potential employers have dwindled down to perhaps one or two large employers, like Walmart. For many unskilled labor, there is no true competition and therefore demand of labor has no bearing on wages. That's why collective bargaining is the only viable option for most workers.

That old canard about field workers is thread bare now. Illegals are not just picking fruit, they're everywhere, taking entry level jobs our teens used to take, and infiltrating higher level positions, as well.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Unfortunately, plenty of US Companies move overseas even at times of record profits. It seems the greed doesn't cause enough outrage in relation to scapegoats that are here as a result of X, Y, and Z reasons.

There's plenty of anti-rich, anti-multinational vitriol in the public discourse. Illegals deserve the same scorn; they are not innocents in the scheme of things, nor are their governments or our government that work to prop each other up in the process.

[decocker 7,198]

no human being is 'illegal'.

"illegal" is just the label these people have been given so the majority of americans know who to hate. just as long as america isn't pissed at the puppet masters.

when it comes to human beings that were brought over by their parents - without consent - full amnesty. nothing less. if you want countless human beings, who have done nothing wrong but live their lives, uprooted and dumped in a country where they have nothing - then i hope karma brings you everything in life you deserve.

and amnesty for these human beings does not have to ENCOURAGE more people to bring their families here without permission, it can be something that concerns the current population and we can move on from there with better border control.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I agree. But what is happening is essentially the Middle Class is being eroded away. A half century ago, you could work at the local hardware store and make enough of a salary to afford a modest home, a car in the garage and your wife didn't have to work if she didn't want to. It's not from a free flow of unskilled labor, however, that has accelerated the race to the bottom, but the systematic attack on unions and the weakening of collective bargaining. With the right immigration reform - migrant labor could be able to negotiate for better pay which lifts all boats. We need to look at the bigger picture of labor in this country and how to keep the labor market sustainable. What is happening now is we're squabbling over who should be allowed to work here rather than how the labor market functions. There are pragmatic solutions to the larger problem, but impossible to solve when the attention is on the wrong issue.

But why does migrant labor need to negotiate for better pay? Absent the flood of unskilled migrant labor, unskilled domestic labor would equally be in a better position to negotiate better pay. The hotel room needs to be cleaned. If all that's available to do the job is labor that costs x, then the employer will need to pay x since there is no labor at x-y available. Same for construction, farms, restaurants and other sectors where an abundance of labor has eroded wages. Increasing that abundance is not going to raise pay above minimum wage requirements even if you had migrants that was here legally. There would still be more supply than demand for such labor and hence, the price of that labor would trend downwards.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

no human being is 'illegal'.

"illegal" is just the label these people have been given so the majority of americans know who to hate. just as long as america isn't pissed at the puppet masters.

when it comes to human beings that were brought over by their parents - without consent - full amnesty. nothing less. if you want countless human beings, who have done nothing wrong but live their lives, uprooted and dumped in a country where they have nothing - then i hope karma brings you everything in life you deserve.

and amnesty for these human beings does not have to ENCOURAGE more people to bring their families here without permission, it can be something that concerns the current population and we can move on from there with better border control.

[Zero Sum 305]

IMO, it goes way beyond that. We must look at the bigger picture of labor in this country and how to sustain a healthy job market which in turn maintains a healthy economy. We can't even get there when we've got fans of Free Market Capitalism championing the unrestrained freedom of companies to look beyond our borders for labor, but these same Free Market Capitalist fanboys want to restrict who can work in this country. It defies not only logic, but their own ideology. So we continue to squabble over the little guy, meanwhile the corporations are laughing all the way to the bank. It's a winner and loser mentality and a race to the bottom.

The actual illegal workforce is relatively small in comparison to the native workforce in the US, IMO... that is already bearing the brunt of corporate greed.

Ironically, those companies that ship out seeking even higher profits get good PR for opening up shop south of the border, paying the local workforce (that could have contributed to the illegal problem here) a pittance of what the illegals would earn here under the table, even in comparison to a standard of living overseas that is relatively cheap... but the income to that level is even more reduced compared to a livable wage here, lest we consider the current wage assumptions we make of illegals in the US.

If the friend of the free market wants a truly honest and open free market, they have to support wages for the people that are the production engine of that same market that allows them to fully participate in the market itself. It can't be skewed towards the profit margin alone as that is as you say, unsustainable.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

no human being is 'illegal'.

"illegal" is just the label these people have been given so the majority of americans know who to hate. just as long as america isn't pissed at the puppet masters.

when it comes to human beings that were brought over by their parents - without consent - full amnesty. nothing less. if you want countless human beings, who have done nothing wrong but live their lives, uprooted and dumped in a country where they have nothing - then i hope karma brings you everything in life you deserve.

and amnesty for these human beings does not have to ENCOURAGE more people to bring their families here without permission, it can be something that concerns the current population and we can move on from there with better border control.

If you are here by any other means other than legal means, you are illegal. If we give full amnesty we are saying; "Hey it's ok to break US laws, come here illegally and have some anchor babies because were idiots and we want you to flood this country illegally".

Edited August 19, 2011 by Why_Me

[Zero Sum 305]

There's plenty of anti-rich, anti-multinational vitriol in the public discourse. Illegals deserve the same scorn; they are not innocents in the scheme of things, nor are their governments or our government that work to prop each other up in the process.

Exactly. These border jumpers would likely not be here as much as they are if our profiteering would not prop up foreign governments that keep their own populations driven towards our borders. For that, I will not turn into hysterics for focusing on the effect of a clearly causal relationship.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Like Tourism which is a MAJOR income producer in our economy? Yeah.. lets push the rest of this stinking economy off a cliff ...

You misinterpret what I was saying. I think we can agree that in all sectors of the economy where illegal labor is providing a significant portion of the workforce, there are businesses that do not tap into this pool but satisfy their labor needs from legal sources. If those businesses can survive in these sectors then I would argue that every business in that sector can survivie without illegal labor. You would level the playing field between businesses that employ those eligible for employment and those that exploit illegal labor. The latter would possibly have a slimmer bottom line or would not be able to make it because they're poorly run. In case of the latter, they'd go out of business and their market share would be picked up by those businesses that operate according to the law. That would be a positive outcome for the economy any way you slice it. I'm not talking about shutting down entire sectors of the economy as you apparently think. I'm talking about promoting legal businesses.