Deporting the bad and letting the good stay

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I despise them. I didn't so much before I started reading here and came across the mind-numbing excuses for why they should be allowed to stay after breaking the law to be here.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think the best people to encourage t be here are those who began their lives here by disregarding and breaking numerous laws designed to control who is allowed to be here. That doesn't say much for their moral character. Then, the argument that their illegal children should be schooled and go to college on the dime of legal Americans who are having trouble keeping and finding jobs themselves is illogical.

To add insult to injury, their children are expected to compete for college placements with illegals who were grade school educated with American money and now want to go further at our expense so they can use their degrees to take jobs that hard-working Americans deserve more.

I buy it less and less with each thread promoting the "value" of law breakers and the wisdom of those who do not have to compete with them in the workplace, but who do count on their votes to perpetuate the system that rewards illegality. Between the arguments that illegality is good for the nation, and the arguments that illegals should be allowed to vote, it is clear that law mean nothing unless you are an American or a LPR trying to do things legally. Then, the law screws you.

Mexico hates illegals and doesn't tolerate their presence. I do, too. That's about the only thing we agree on.

Wow. Are you having a bad day or do you really despise 30+ million human beings so much? It's a little over the top to make such remarks about so many people who are simply trying to afford a better life for their families. Some are bad people... about 1% of them. The other 99% I wouldn't use any of those words to describe any of them.

I believe in the motto "Treat others as you would like to be treated."

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'd not mind citizens/residents getting re-trained to work in employment sectors at the low skill level, such as in agriculture... and from what little I know of those areas the on the job training is sufficient. But even given this, and what I surmise is some available jobs in the area (Texas, for example... speaking from personal knowledge of chicken farmers), citizens/residents are not flocking to those open positions. Perhaps its a marketing problem, but given the current appetite for jobs among the unemployed, I am surprised many have not settled in these positions. Again, these are limited in number from what I've seen personally- but they're there for the taking. And this in light of the recent ICE raids targeting the sector.

I understand that there are not enough people willing to work the strawberry fields or tomato harvest around here and I know that there are a large number of migrant workers - both legal and illegal - doing the work in the fields. I will not sit here and say that we may not needs some unskilled labor coming into the country and doing some of those jobs. But this is the other side of the coin: If there are that many unskilled workers out of a job, then they should be encouraged to go to these farms and do the work. Don't like it? Well, go get some skills so you can find something better to do down the road. I'd just rather have Americans and residents picking up the jobs - and many would as we've seen time and again when meat packaging plants had to find legal staff after being raided. Same goes for restaurant businesses, horticulture jobs and the hospitality industry. Will these employers have to pay a better wage and provide better working conditions? Yes, they will. But many in these industries already do that anyways and they happen to stay in business. Why not level the playing field and let businesses that exist only based on their exploitation of illegal labor go down the drain? Let the viable businesses pick up the slack and provide more of those better jobs? Seems like a winning strategy to me.

[Zero Sum 305]

I understand that there are not enough people willing to work the strawberry fields or tomato harvest around here and I know that there are a large number of migrant workers - both legal and illegal - doing the work in the fields. I will not sit here and say that we may not needs some unskilled labor coming into the country and doing some of those jobs. But this is the other side of the coin: If there are that many unskilled workers out of a job, then they should be encouraged to go to these farms and do the work. Don't like it? Well, go get some skills so you can find something better to do down the road. I'd just rather have Americans and residents picking up the jobs - and many would as we've seen time and again when meat packaging plants had to find legal staff after being raided. Same goes for restaurant businesses, horticulture jobs and the hospitality industry. Will these employers have to pay a better wage and provide better working conditions? Yes, they will. But many in these industries already do that anyways and they happen to stay in business. Why not level the playing field and let businesses that exist only based on their exploitation of illegal labor go down the drain? Let the viable businesses pick up the slack and provide more of those better jobs? Seems like a winning strategy to me.

It does seem like a win win for labor and for the overall economy. Hence in this hypothetical future where some illegals with an aptitude for making positive contributions to the nation, as long as rational benchmarks are met, will not really adversely impact the competitive aspect from citizens/residents that accept to fill open positions, at these hypothesized sustainable levels of wages and local economies.

Of course, we'd be counting on business interests doing their part to give a little more weight to the domestic labor force and its needs (including the leaks and soon-to-be legalized laborers with no papers) instead of mere profiteering, which is what drives the availability of under the table positions.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The largest job growth over the last decade has been service industry jobs. That's where our job market has shifted to. Sure, it's unsustainable, but tell that to the Free Market Capitalists who have no qualms about outsourcing jobs overseas. So the pragmatic solution is to not restrict the flow of labor from either direction, or set up parameters in both directions that encourage a healthy job market that is sustainable. We're in a race to the bottom. There's no need to scapegoat the unskilled labor based on where it's coming from when the larger problem isn't even seriously being looked at.

What you're forgetting here is that the jobs the illegal migrants pick up are those that can't be outsourced. You can't outsource cleaning hotel rooms, you can't outsource washing dishes and preparing food in a restaurant. You can't outsource roofing and construction in general. Nor can you outsource landscaping. All these are jobs that have to be done locally. Introducing a large flow of cheap labor into these jobs will accomplish only one thing: accelerate the race to the bottom. Remember, the factory worker has to compete with factory workers overseas as the good he produces could well be produced elsewhere. The same is not true for the hotel maid, the line cook, the dishwasher, the roofer, the carpenter and the landscaper. They compete not only with a domestic but a local workforce. How do you get them to work for less? Right, you bring in people that will do the job for half the pay. That's the race to the bottom. And a heavy flow of cheap labor into these markets accelerates that race. I am not interested in seeing that continue.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Mr. Big Dog

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Control the flow of labor, you must mean. There is no point to talking about sustainability if you overflow the labor force with too many hands. Of course if we put it in perspective, not all illegals will fall into this category, so the numbers of illegals vs citizens/residents is likely to be decreased anyway.

The fundamentals of economics say otherwise. As a population increases, so does the economy. The problem we have had is job loss from outsourcing. Companies are chasing the bottom line and cheap labor is what drives them to look beyond our soil, while at the same time, there has been an increase in demand for unskilled labor in this country, many of which have come here undocumented. The principles of a truly Free Market would be to allow a free flow of labor. Pragmatically speaking, that can work provided there are some restrictions but such restrictions have to work equally well in both directions. Right now, we're essentially saying that it's okay for GM to close a plant in the U.S. and open one up in Mexico for cheap labor, but McDonald's shouldn't be able to have access to cheap labor being imported. By keeping the status quo - we maintain an underclass of laborers who have no legal avenues to raise their levels of pay beyond our Federal and State minimum wage standards. As I keep saying - this is a race to the bottom and it's unsustainable, but focusing on undocumented workers is ignoring the bigger problem.

[Ready to do it 101]

Everything that you just argued are NOT reasons to hate illegals. They are reasons to hate the policies in place. Other than crossing the border, every single point you made is that fault of governments and rules... you hate the rules and you hate the government that made those rules, not the illegals themselves.

I despise them. I didn't so much before I started reading here and came across the mind-numbing excuses for why they should be allowed to stay after breaking the law to be here.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think the best people to encourage t be here are those who began their lives here by disregarding and breaking numerous laws designed to control who is allowed to be here. That doesn't say much for their moral character. Then, the argument that their illegal children should be schooled and go to college on the dime of legal Americans who are having trouble keeping and finding jobs themselves is illogical.

To add insult to injury, their children are expected to compete for college placements with illegals who were grade school educated with American money and now want to go further at our expense so they can use their degrees to take jobs that hard-working Americans deserve more.

I buy it less and less with each thread promoting the "value" of law breakers and the wisdom of those who do not have to compete with them in the workplace, but who do count on their votes to perpetuate the system that rewards illegality. Between the arguments that illegality is good for the nation, and the arguments that illegals should be allowed to vote, it is clear that law mean nothing unless you are an American or a LPR trying to do things legally. Then, the law screws you.

Mexico hates illegals and doesn't tolerate their presence. I do, too. That's about the only thing we agree on.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Illegal lovers are full of feelings and emoting about fairness, but they are only for fairness for illegals, not for working class Americans who are the biggest losers in this appeasement of law-breakers. They have lost their ability to see the bigger picture or to gauge the long term consequences of their acquiescence to illegality, government hubris and economic devolution. There is no reasoning with people who feel more easily than they think.

I hate the policies and the illegals who take advantage of them. I hate them both with a passion.

Everything that you just argued are NOT reasons to hate illegals. They are reasons to hate the policies in place. Other than crossing the border, every single point you made is that fault of governments and rules... you hate the rules and you hate the government that made those rules, not the illegals themselves.

[Zero Sum 305]

The fundamentals of economics say otherwise. As a population increases, so does the economy. The problem we have had is job loss from outsourcing. Companies are chasing the bottom line and cheap labor is what drives them to look beyond our soil, while at the same time, there has been an increase in demand for unskilled labor in this country, many of which have come here undocumented. The principles of a truly Free Market would be to allow a free flow of labor. Pragmatically speaking, that can work provided there are some restrictions but such restrictions have to work equally well in both directions. Right now, we're essentially saying that it's okay for GM to close a plant in the U.S. and open one up in Mexico for cheap labor, but McDonald's shouldn't be able to have access to cheap labor being imported. By keeping the status quo - we maintain an underclass of laborers who have no legal avenues to raise their levels of pay beyond our Federal and State minimum wage standards. As I keep saying - this is a race to the bottom and it's unsustainable, but focusing on undocumented workers is ignoring the bigger problem.

But the economy has not expanded proportional to the existing population.

Why?

Because the obtention of wealth is hyperpolarized in this country to make cheap labor the new median for the population. While it does compound this for the common citizen/resident, the presence of cheap illegal labor in this country is not quite as competitive with this citizen/resident labor force as some would have us believe in anger and hysteria, this being my subjective opinion of course.

I agree that scapegoating illegals is not a rational way to assess what's going on.

There are much larger issues out there- and the illegal situation is only a small fragment of it.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

What you're forgetting here is that the jobs the illegal migrants pick up are those that can't be outsourced. You can't outsource cleaning hotel rooms, you can't outsource washing dishes and preparing food in a restaurant. You can't outsource roofing and construction in general. Nor can you outsource landscaping. All these are jobs that have to be done locally. Introducing a large flow of cheap labor into these jobs will accomplish only one thing: accelerate the race to the bottom. Remember, the factory worker has to compete with factory workers overseas as the good he produces could well be produced elsewhere. The same is not true for the hotel maid, the line cook, the dishwasher, the roofer, the carpenter and the landscaper. They compete not only with a domestic but a local workforce. How do you get them to work for less? Right, you bring in people that will do the job for half the pay. That's the race to the bottom. And a heavy flow of cheap labor into these markets accelerates that race. I am not interested in seeing that continue.

I agree. But what is happening is essentially the Middle Class is being eroded away. A half century ago, you could work at the local hardware store and make enough of a salary to afford a modest home, a car in the garage and your wife didn't have to work if she didn't want to. It's not from a free flow of unskilled labor, however, that has accelerated the race to the bottom, but the systematic attack on unions and the weakening of collective bargaining. With the right immigration reform - migrant labor could be able to negotiate for better pay which lifts all boats. We need to look at the bigger picture of labor in this country and how to keep the labor market sustainable. What is happening now is we're squabbling over who should be allowed to work here rather than how the labor market functions. There are pragmatic solutions to the larger problem, but impossible to solve when the attention is on the wrong issue.

Edited August 19, 2011 by DFH

[Zero Sum 305]

I agree. But what is happening is essentially the Middle Class is being eroded away. A half century ago, you could work at the local hardware store and make enough of a salary to afford a modest home, a car in the garage and your wife didn't have to work if she didn't want to. It's not from a free flow of unskilled labor, however, that has accelerated the race to the bottom, but the systematic attack on unions and the weakening of collective bargaining. With the right immigration reform - migrant labor could be able to negotiate for better pay which lifts all boats. We need to look at the bigger picture of labor in this country and how to keep the labor market sustainable. What is happening now is we're squabbling over who should be allowed to work here rather than how the labor market functions. There are pragmatic solutions to the larger problem, but impossible to solve when the attention is on the wrong issue.

Hence removing the bad apples from the barrel is not a bad idea... it will allow the legalized good apples to contribute in this reformatted labor market where realistically... unemployed John Connor will not likely seek employment. And by removing the bad apples I also include a smarter way of not allowing apples into the barrel for it to increase fruit rotting... this involves a little more active enforcement but also a little more proactive foreign policy that does not simply export our profiteering motivations to places where the labor continues to be cheap, thereby perpetuating foreign economies that drive the illegal immigration to our borders in the first place.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I agree. But what is happening is essentially the Middle Class is being eroded away. A half century ago, you could work at the local hardware store and make enough of a salary to afford a modest home, a car in the garage and your wife didn't have to work if she didn't want to. It's not from a free flow of unskilled labor, however, that has accelerated the race to the bottom, but the systematic attack on unions and the weakening of collective bargaining. With the right immigration reform - migrant labor could be able to negotiate for better pay which lifts all boats. We need to look at the bigger picture of labor in this country and how to keep the labor market sustainable. What is happening now is we're squabbling over who should be allowed to work here rather than how the labor market functions. There are pragmatic solutions to the larger problem, but impossible to solve when the attention is on the wrong issue.

Are you serious? The very fact that there is cheap and illegal labor keeps the labor market from functioning in a way that makes wages more favorable for the worker. Employers are not inclined to raise wages unless labor becomes scarce and people refuse to work for low wages and/or under poor conditions. Illegals fill a need because they are willing to undercut wages and work in poor conditions. Their presence in our markets due to wages, opportunities and benefits (due to illegal loving) here being more attractive than those where they come from is self-perpetuating.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Sofiyya

[one...two...tree 2,762]

But the economy has not expanded proportional to the existing population.

Why?

Because the obtention of wealth is hyperpolarized in this country to make cheap labor the new median for the population. While it does compound this for the common citizen/resident, the presence of cheap illegal labor in this country is not quite as competitive with this citizen/resident labor force as some would have us believe in anger and hysteria, this being my subjective opinion of course.

I agree that scapegoating illegals is not a rational way to assess what's going on.

There are much larger issues out there- and the illegal situation is only a small fragment of it.

It has, but as you indicate, wages for most have remained stagnant or decreased, while only the top percentage have seen their buying power increase. But that's not the fault of an influx of imported labor. That's from regressive tax policies (Bush Tax Cuts) and the weakening of the unions.

Having an increasing population is a boost for the economy. There's no getting around that. But I would agree, if that increase only adds to lower incomes, economic job growth will be anemic because a larger portion of the population have less and less buying power. There's still a bottom threshold in that no matter how small the income, people still consume.

[Zero Sum 305]

"Illegal loving" LOL. Sounds like something a pro-apartheid South African would have said about whites that would not support the system.

[Used to be broken 147]

I understand that there are not enough people willing to work the strawberry fields or tomato harvest around here and I know that there are a large number of migrant workers - both legal and illegal - doing the work in the fields. I will not sit here and say that we may not needs some unskilled labor coming into the country and doing some of those jobs. But this is the other side of the coin: If there are that many unskilled workers out of a job, then they should be encouraged to go to these farms and do the work. Don't like it? Well, go get some skills so you can find something better to do down the road. I'd just rather have Americans and residents picking up the jobs - and many would as we've seen time and again when meat packaging plants had to find legal staff after being raided. Same goes for restaurant businesses, horticulture jobs and the hospitality industry. Will these employers have to pay a better wage and provide better working conditions? Yes, they will. But many in these industries already do that anyways and they happen to stay in business. Why not level the playing field and let businesses that exist only based on their exploitation of illegal labor go down the drain? Let the viable businesses pick up the slack and provide more of those better jobs? Seems like a winning strategy to me.

Like Tourism which is a MAJOR income producer in our economy? Yeah.. lets push the rest of this stinking economy off a cliff ...

????? The economy was clicking along just fine with the highest number of illegal aliens we ever had in the US... maybe going after them is part of what crashed the economy?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Employers are not inclined to raise wages unless labor becomes scarce and people refuse to work for low wages and/or under poor conditions.

For unskilled labor, that is rarely ever the case. Look at many rural areas across this country and you'll see the numbers of potential employers have dwindled down to perhaps one or two large employers, like Walmart. For many unskilled labor, there is no true competition and therefore demand of labor has no bearing on wages. That's why collective bargaining is the only viable option for most workers.