Deporting the bad and letting the good stay

[Fandango 1,440]

I love how America is compared to a free lemonade stand. That's half the problem right there.

[Fandango 1,440]

But why does migrant labor need to negotiate for better pay? Absent the flood of unskilled migrant labor, unskilled domestic labor would equally be in a better position to negotiate better pay. The hotel room needs to be cleaned. If all that's available to do the job is labor that costs x, then the employer will need to pay x since there is no labor at x-y available. Same for construction, farms, restaurants and other sectors where an abundance of labor has eroded wages. Increasing that abundance is not going to raise pay above minimum wage requirements even if you had migrants that was here legally. There would still be more supply than demand for such labor and hence, the price of that labor would trend downwards.

I don't think he's gotten your 'race to the bottom' theory, because he's adopted it as his own, but completely misinterpreted it.

It's not from a free flow of unskilled labor, however, that has accelerated the race to the bottom, but the systematic attack on unions and the weakening of collective bargaining.

DFH talks of unions being broken as part of the problem, but doesn't realize that the scabs that are the illegal worker are the ones who are screwing it up for the American 'union'.

Do none of you amnesty supporters realize that sadly, the only working value an illegal has is his illegal status which limits his earning ability? The second they are 'legal' they will cease to be useful.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Anita Cocktail

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Game, set and match! :thumbs:

Not hardly. Again the first sentence of that should have read like this as to be honest and truthful.

"Crossing a border into another country illegally and knowingly breaking said country's laws to provide a better life for your family...and then crying about it when you get busted for said crime..."

Edited August 20, 2011 by Why_Me

[Pooky 3,827]

Do none of you amnesty supporters realize that sadly, the only working value an illegal has is his illegal status which limits his earning ability? The second they are 'legal' they will cease to be useful.

+1

And the inevitable consequence will more ... MORE illegal immigrants.

[웃 910]

Do none of you amnesty supporters realize that sadly, the only working value an illegal has is his illegal status which limits his earning ability? The second they are 'legal' they will cease to be useful.

As stated before get on Craigslist under skilled trade or automotive.

All your painters, backyard mechanics, people that lay carpet, handymen, roofers, plumbers, electricians, etc., are legal and not Mexican, but they are doing things completely off the books...Their work does not legally exist. They are paid in cash 99% of the time.

"Illegal" Mexicans come to the country with forged documentation (green card, EAD, passport, SS#, etc.)...They are not "paid under the table"....It is not hard to figure out....The restaurant manager being paid $30,000 a year is not out looking for people to pay cash each week ($4 or $5 an hour, lol). Simply not true.

My wife first worked at a Red Robin. Entire kitchen 95% illegal and Mexican. From the kitchen manager down to the dish washer. On top of these 40 hour weeks most if not all have second jobs where they work another 30 to 40 hours a week.

They are paid just like everyone else, in the system, by check, and taxes come out.

My wife then went to another restaurant and 99% of the kitchen staff (including manager) was illegal....She was there for 2 years. She quit about 5 months ago and we found out a couple months later that this restaurant was audited and all employees that didn't have authentic documentation were let go.

Most of the evil places that hire illegals are listed on the major stock exchanges. Red Robin, McDonald's, Burger King, and pretty much any other restaurant you can think of.

They don't go there and whisper in the managers ear: "I'm illegal, you want to pay me $5 under the table"

That is not how it works. They are paid at the same rate as everyone else (starting at the restaurant my wife worked at was $10 an hour, the kitchen manager probably was making $16 or $17 - he was there for years and was promoted from an Ohio location to a Michigan location to head the kitchen). And in many cases they not only work harder and better, they want to be there, and on top of the 40 hours they work another 30 hours somewhere else (this was true with 80% of my wife's illegal coworkers)..

Maybe housekeeping, skilled trade, landscaping is done under the table (the illegal then decides his own prices). But no different than the legal that gets paid cash.

The only industry I can think of where they might be paid under the table is picking vegetables/fruits 14 hours a day....

Edited August 20, 2011 by Lord Infamous

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I get calls from LEGALS being paid under the table who want to know how this will affect their ability to get US citizenship (I teach citizenship classes), so, yes, payment under the table does occur and not infrequently.

As stated before get on Craigslist under skilled trade or automotive.

All your painters, backyard mechanics, people that lay carpet, handymen, roofers, plumbers, electricians, etc., are legal and not Mexican, but they are doing things completely off the books...Their work does not legally exist. They are paid in cash 99% of the time.

"Illegal" Mexicans come to the country with forged documentation (green card, EAD, passport, SS#, etc.)...They are not "paid under the table"....It is not hard to figure out....The restaurant manager being paid $30,000 a year is not out looking for people to pay cash each week ($4 or $5 an hour, lol). Simply not true.

My wife first worked at a Red Robin. Entire kitchen 95% illegal and Mexican. From the kitchen manager down to the dish washer. On top of these 40 hour weeks most if not all have second jobs where they work another 30 to 40 hours a week.

They are paid just like everyone else, in the system, by check, and taxes come out.

My wife then went to another restaurant and 99% of the kitchen staff (including manager) was illegal....She was there for 2 years. She quit about 5 months ago and we found out a couple months later that this restaurant was audited and all employees that didn't have authentic documentation were let go.

Most of the evil places that hire illegals are listed on the major stock exchanges. Red Robin, McDonald's, Burger King, and pretty much any other restaurant you can think of.

They don't go there and whisper in the managers ear: "I'm illegal, you want to pay me $5 under the table"

That is not how it works. They are paid at the same rate as everyone else (starting at the restaurant my wife worked at was $10 an hour, the kitchen manager probably was making $16 or $17 - he was there for years and was promoted from an Ohio location to a Michigan location to head the kitchen). And in many cases they not only work harder and better, they want to be there, and on top of the 40 hours they work another 30 hours somewhere else (this was true with 80% of my wife's illegal coworkers)..

Maybe housekeeping, skilled trade, landscaping is done under the table (the illegal then decides his own prices). But no different than the legal that gets paid cash.

The only industry I can think of where they might be paid under the table is picking vegetables/fruits 14 hours a day....

Edited August 20, 2011 by Sofiyya

[Zero Sum 305]

I can tell you that in my area the illegals won't work for less than $10/hour cash.

That is the same amount my USC son was making at the local SAMS club before deductions.

Seems like you have some proof of this. Industries?

Hey perhaps it's a geography thing. It's too bad folks out west feel as you do. I personally wish Texas would just say Adios to the rest of the US. We can survive just fine without the other 49 states. Plus we wouldn't have to listen to everyone complaining about how illegals somehow take their jobs, or that somehow their tax money goes to support illegals, etc. lol

I don't support secession but I'm wearing a Longhorns cap given to me as a gift last week.

I don't think he's gotten your 'race to the bottom' theory, because he's adopted it as his own, but completely misinterpreted it.

DFH talks of unions being broken as part of the problem, but doesn't realize that the scabs that are the illegal worker are the ones who are screwing it up for the American 'union'.

Do none of you amnesty supporters realize that sadly, the only working value an illegal has is his illegal status which limits his earning ability? The second they are 'legal' they will cease to be useful.

That would be true- their benefit to the employers of illegals, you mean- if and only if the employers are allowed to keep laughing their way to the bank. Both Steven and Mr Big Dog advocate restructuring the employers to pay their employees adequate wages.

[Zero Sum 305]

lol, denial is not a river in Egypt my friend.

By your assessment, almost every member of the US military and every officer is psychotic.

You really need to get a clue on how on the human brain works and the psychology behind how people think.

Are members of the US Military killing people without any due cause? Usually there are rules of engagement, missions, and other things that you refuse to consider before trying to equate your psychosis of advocating unwarranted murder of border crossers with military targets, death row inmates, etc.

But if you'd rather rant about your expertise in the neuropsychologiccal basis of behavior, feel free to start a thread about how you're an expert in that too.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You don't employ them yet you still get their papers to tear up. Seems a bit fishy.

Nothing fishy at all. You must not do any hiring.

[Zero Sum 305]

Ah I see, an HR thing.

What ever happened to those competitive scholarships that would made available to DREAMers? There must be some fundamental truth behind that. Or not.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Are members of the US Military killing people without any due cause? Usually there are rules of engagement, missions, and other things that you refuse to consider before trying to equate your psychosis of advocating unwarranted murder of border crossers with military targets, death row inmates, etc.

But if you'd rather rant about your expertise in the neuropsychologiccal basis of behavior, feel free to start a thread about how you're an expert in that too.

If you'd pay attention, that IS what I'm an actual expert in, but you keep on trying to troll away.

As far as military personnel go, you're naive to think if it's all about the 'rules of engagement' and they are only killing those who offer a 'perceived' threat.

[Zero Sum 305]

You would be a lot more interesting to debate with if you ever lifted a finger to do some research on your own instead of whining that no one has served you yet, even if just to prove your opponent wrong. Don't be such a prima donna. Show some initiative already. It's good for you.

SCHOLARSHIPS FOR UNDOCUMENTED STUDENTS

Undocumented immigrants who attend California universities and colleges will have greater access to privately funded scholarships after Gov. Jerry Brown on Monday signed into law a portion of what is known as the Dream Act.

Quinn to sign Ill. Dream Act for scholarship money

Scholarships for undocumented students

I know you're only trying to be provocative... I have no interest (or time) to get into a multi-page 'debate' with you to try to back up your own claims. I was merely asking. But I promise to click on your links. Hopefully they will show the competitive nature that would make DREAM students eligible for scholarships, diluting the number of citizens/residents able to obtain them. This is your original claim and I do not oppose changing the law in that regards to not negatively impact people legally born in the country.

ETA: am reading through now.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Zero Sum

[Zero Sum 305]

From link #1 (

These scholarships are either targeted towards DREAM students or have been awarded to undocumented students in previous years:

Chicano Organizing and Research in Education

Eligibility Criteria:

• Must be of Chicano / Latino descent

• Must be an undocumented student

• Must be a graduating twelfth grade student who will enroll in an accredited college or

university in the U.S. or Puerto Rico for the 2009-2010 academic year.

Migrant workers Scholarships

(kinda obvious)

SALEF – Fulfilling Our Dreams Scholarship Fund

DavisPutter

Yowza

Recent grantees have been active in the struggle against racism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of oppression; building the movement for economic justice; and creating peace through international anti-imperialist solidarity.

Golden State Minority Foundation

LaVida Scholars

Communicate & Connect Scholarship for English Language Learners

MyUSearch

Etc... it seems none of these are particularly tailored only for residents/citizens and can at times even be given to foreigners outside the US. The selection criteria are not in the requirement that they be given to residents or citizens.

Link #2 is pretty obvious. Private sources. Private scholarships are not required to fund US Citizens/Residents only. Many do as I stated above- fund international students.

Link#3 is easy. Its the IL DREAM Act.

No public funding will fund the scholarships to be made available to IL DREAMers.

Link #4:

Although the state of Colorado does not yet have a law allowing undocumented students to attend college at in-state tuition fees, there are a few scholarship opportunities that these students are eligible to apply for. Below are several links to scholarships that support the path to higher education regardless of a student’s status in the United States.

Latino College Dollars - www.latinodollars.org/directory.htm

Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund - www.maldef.org/pdf/scholarships.pdf

College Scholarships - www.collegescholarships.org

BOCES Geneseo Migrant Center www.migrant.net/migrant/scholarships.htm

Harvest of Hope Foundation - www.harvestofhope.net

La Raza Youth Leadership - www.larazayouth.com

Fondo Futuro - http://fondofuturo.com

Alliance for CHOICE in Education (ACE) - www.acescholarships.org

Latin American Education Foundation - www.laef.org

More private scholarships.

[Zero Sum 305]

So it would seem these scholarships- at least a few of them... would be primarily funded by those "illegal lovers" that make your blood boil, and not by the US Taxpayer.

Maybe you can find us some actual competitive scholarships that put the US Citizen/Resident at a disadvantage (or to make it worse as you have previously posted... the US Taxpayer at a disadvantage).

the Federal DREAM Act, from what I've understood... is quite clear in its service to the nation component- including schooling as a road to economic contribution via the Treasury. I am not crazy about that part, and would prefer more emphasis be placed on channeling DREAMers into a more tangible service component, such as the military or a civil service corps.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You think you could do a better job of finding the scholarships that suit you? Then, why didn't you? Unless your fingers are broken, nothing was stopping you. Next time, do it yourself. I have better things to do.

Not provoking, just instructing.

From link #1 (

These scholarships are either targeted towards DREAM students or have been awarded to undocumented students in previous years:

Chicano Organizing and Research in Education

Migrant workers Scholarships

(kinda obvious)

SALEF – Fulfilling Our Dreams Scholarship Fund

DavisPutter

Yowza

Golden State Minority Foundation

LaVida Scholars

Communicate & Connect Scholarship for English Language Learners

MyUSearch

Etc... it seems none of these are particularly tailored only for residents/citizens and can at times even be given to foreigners outside the US. The selection criteria are not in the requirement that they be given to residents or citizens.

Link #2 is pretty obvious. Private sources. Private scholarships are not required to fund US Citizens/Residents only. Many do as I stated above- fund international students.

Link#3 is easy. Its the IL DREAM Act.

No public funding will fund the scholarships to be made available to IL DREAMers.

Link #4:

More private scholarships.