Could Farms Survive Without Illegal Labor?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

My understanding is that its not just the wages (I saw a report where farmers in Georgia are paying at or above min wage and still not get workers), its the lifestyle. To do this type of work you have to be nomadic. Traveling from state to state depending on the seasons.

Thats why I do support the "migrant worker" visas. I mentioned this in another thread though, there is no market need for an illegal immigrant to be in:

1. Construction

2. Retail

3. Domestic Services

Americans in these industries ARE being harmed by illegal immigrants taking jobs.

The government needs to squash demand for illegals and then provide enough migrant worker visas so that enough legal agricultural works meet market demand.

I think LEGAL work visas should be made very easy to obtain where workers are needed and made very inexpensive, $100 range or so. This will provide farmers with LEGAL workers who are needed and have to be treated and paid according to the laws of ths country. It is not just a matter of minimum wage, it is also the matter of SS, workmans comp protections, equal opportunity, ADA, OSHA, Family and Medical Leave, overtime...you name it. American workers have striuggled to have the best working conditions, even Walmart is a palace compared to how these illegals are treated. And American employers are p*ssing all over what we have done for the "little guy" by tossing him off the job and hiring an illegal and pocketing the profit! Disgusting.

Anyone hiring illegal workers should be brutally punished (financially) so that they would never dare to do that.

If we can ever toss out Pres Downgrade, we may get construction back up to where we could use a few migrant workers.

Illegals are just slaves and I cannot believe we still tolerate such treament of humans in this country.

Since the other thread got closed can you answer the question you posed to me: "There's a reason why they're hired. What do you think that may be?"

Not sure if you didn't read what I wrote or if you think it is not true but from real life experience, 3 years having a wife working in the restaurant industry with illegals, giving 3 to 4 different "illegals" rides home on occasion, interacting with them, even going to Chicago to a concert with a few of them, I think I have a better understanding of how it works.

So I am assuming you think the reason they are hired is because they work for under minimum wage and therefore are secretly paid in cash, lol.

I can assure you that from talking to illegals that worked at Red Robin, McDonald's, Coney Island, and the restaurant my wife works at that they are paid by check with taxes coming out. And they are paid at the same rate as everyone else.

And to top it off, the person doing the hiring (kitchen manager) is an illegal himself (at least in the case of Red Robin and the place my wife works at).

So to anyone reading this - illegals (mostly that barely speak English) do not walk into a random restaurant, ask to speak to the manager that makes $25,000 a year who only speaks English, communicate through a translator telling the manager that they'll work under the table for cheaper, paid in cash, because they are illegal.

So since they are not being paid cash and <minimum wage, why do you think they are being hired in restaurants across the US?

I take back everything I said.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

The original question: Could Farms Survive Without Illegal Labor?

Yes, absolutely, beyond any reasonable question.

One example: Here is an article from NPR last year where they were talking to farmers that work both in the USA and in the Caribbean and why they can't compete even with lower labor costs.. The link: Farms Can't compete

For the 90% that won't bother clicking here is a small excerpt from the transcript:

BLUMBERG: I ask Gabby: What's the difference between farming in America and farming here? And he gets this overwhelmed look in his eye, as if I'd asked: What's the difference between building a sandcastle and a skyscraper?

Take melons. In America, he says:

Mr. WELLINGTON: They plant 25 acres of melon in one day.

BLUMBERG: Twenty-five acres in one day.

Mr. WELLINGTON: Yeah, they've got a truck that will do 20 acres in a day.

BLUMBERG: And how much can you plant here?

Mr. WELLINGTON: It take a lot of men to do 25 acres. Maybe it would take 15, 25 people to do that.

BLUMBERG: Right.

Mr. WELLINGTON: And in America, where I work, they do 25 acres with three of us.

BLUMBERG: So 25 acres with just three people in America versus 25 acres with 10, 15 or 25 people in Jamaica. And that's just to plant the crops. Let's not even get into spraying.

Mr. WELLINGTON: We spray 150-acre farm 1:30 and by 6, you're finished.

BLUMBERG: Right. And here, it would take how long to spray?

Mr. WELLINGTON: A hundred and fifty acres would take you maybe three, four days with maybe four, five, six pump. It's very hard to compete with them.

... Click the link to read the rest

The point being that farming is much less labor intensive here and a smaller portion of the overall cost. If we were forced to use expensive labor prices would go up and people would innovate and find ways to reduce costs like they always have.. I'm not arguing the morality of any action but to suggest that cheap labor is a requirement for farms to exist is a bad argument.

Edited August 22, 2011 by OnMyWayID

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

You are a Democrat?

no, he's a gecko!

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

My grandparents had a 80+ acre vegetable farm and never once did they hire an illegal.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Let's ask a southerner this question. Was slavery worth it? Maybe we could go back to the days of slavery to help justify people who knowingly break the laws of this country by knowingly entering the United States of America illegally.

In fact let's just say "fck it" and do away with all the immigration laws. Hey, I say we all go third world...I mean were headed that way anyways.

Slavery would have ended eventaully as machines would have made slaves obsolete for the most part and too expensive to keep in any case. Now it is much cheaper to hire illegals and give them no benefits, no worker protections, no insurance, minimum wage, etc.

It is all economics. Period

No one hires illegals because they are the best restaraunt workers or roofers, they are not hired because of their communication skills. They are hired because they are cheap. If they become not cheap, they will not be hired. Period. The way to make them not cheap is to tax the ever lovin' ####### out of anyone that hires one. Or give such huge tax breaks to business that it wuld be completely foolish to hire even one illegal. Make illegals the MOST EXPENSIVE workers and they are gone overnight. Tomorrow they will have no jobs.

Faced with the possiblility of ICE walking in, not to deport their workers but to hand them a $500,000 tax bill and put a lock on the door until the tax is paid...the illegals will be walking home. No deportation needed.

It does not matter if a few ignorant boobs went to concerts with friendly illegals, so what? The practice of hiring illegal workers creates huge human rights abuses and we are not going to tolerate that because a couple people landed promising careers in the fast food industry.

One should also not confuse withholding money from their checks as a sign any taxes are being paid. Those witholdings would need to be deposited in the businesses IRS account and claimed on their employment forms. It would be entirely possible and easy to withhold money from known illegals and pocket the cash.

[웃 910]

I take back everything I said.

There are a lot of illegals employed at various Franchises that use different Marketing Schemes to employ them.

You read that children's book on how and when to capitalize letters yet?

Edited August 22, 2011 by Lord Infamous

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Slavery would have ended eventaully as machines would have made slaves obsolete for the most part and too expensive to keep in any case. Now it is much cheaper to hire illegals and give them no benefits, no worker protections, no insurance, minimum wage, etc.

It is all economics. Period

No one hires illegals because they are the best restaraunt workers or roofers, they are not hired because of their communication skills. They are hired because they are cheap. If they become not cheap, they will not be hired. Period. The way to make them not cheap is to tax the ever lovin' ####### out of anyone that hires one. Or give such huge tax breaks to business that it wuld be completely foolish to hire even one illegal. Make illegals the MOST EXPENSIVE workers and they are gone overnight. Tomorrow they will have no jobs.

Faced with the possiblility of ICE walking in, not to deport their workers but to hand them a $500,000 tax bill and put a lock on the door until the tax is paid...the illegals will be walking home. No deportation needed.

It does not matter if a few ignorant boobs went to concerts with friendly illegals, so what? The practice of hiring illegal workers creates huge human rights abuses and we are not going to tolerate that because a couple people landed promising careers in the fast food industry.

One should also not confuse withholding money from their checks as a sign any taxes are being paid. Those witholdings would need to be deposited in the businesses IRS account and claimed on their employment forms. It would be entirely possible and easy to withhold money from known illegals and pocket the cash.

[Ready to do it 101]

I disagree with that. I know many illegals that are maids b/c of my previous marriage, and I know many well to do folks that have an illegal as a nanny. 90%+ of them are treated very well and paid well over $1k/week. Where else can a woman who speaks little to no English and with little to no skills make $48k+/yr? Add all the small little perks on top of that. I.e. We were going to sell our car, do you want it? We got a new 100 inch flatscreen, do you want our old one (the one they bought last year). Many illegals are not slaves. They are appreciated, respected, and paid very well by many.

Illegals are just slaves and I cannot believe we still tolerate such treament of humans in this country.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I disagree with that. I know many illegals that are maids b/c of my previous marriage, and I know many well to do folks that have an illegal as a nanny. 90%+ of them are treated very well and paid well over $1k/week. Where else can a woman who speaks little to no English and with little to no skills make $48k+/yr? Add all the small little perks on top of that. I.e. We were going to sell our car, do you want it? We got a new 100 inch flatscreen, do you want our old one (the one they bought last year). Many illegals are not slaves. They are appreciated, respected, and paid very well by many.

How do they manage to get so well payed jobs without a social security number ?

[Ready to do it 101]

In housekeeping, nannys, construction, and manual labor (i.e. moving companies) illegals are hired because they work hard, not because they are cheaper. Someone looking to hire laborers knows what he is going to pay for a day's work. He does not care if it's a legal or illegal. He wants someone who will work hard and do a good job. If the job is done well, he will employ that same laborer day after day. It has nothing to do with an illegal doing it for cheaper. He was going to pay someone $100/cash for a 12 hour day of work anyhow. Illegal or legal makes no difference to him. Quality of work is what makes the difference.

[웃 910]

How do they manage to get so well payed jobs without a social security number ?

You ask the housekeeper for her legal status and social security card before hiring her?

[Ready to do it 101]

My ex-wife lived here for 10 years before we got married 15 years ago. She had an ITIN number that she used to pay taxes.

How do they get well paid jobs? Word of mouth. My ex-wife made well over $75k/yr before she met me. In fact, after she met me is when she started making less, as she could then only have time to clean 2 houses/day or stopped babysitting etc.

You guys have no idea. My ex-wife, most of her friends (which very few of them speak English)... $25/hr babysitting. Why? Because the families like them. People can say, "But that is taking the job from a legal USC?" Bulls**t. Millionares prefer latinas that have good moral values. Could they hire a legal latina? Sure, but many legal latinas move on to other type of work... other than my ex-wife, who just recently got her citizenship by the way. I've tried to tell her to go to school to learn English and get a real job. Who am I to judge? She makes over $75k/year and she's happy.

How do they manage to get so well payed jobs without a social security number ?

Some do. One of my ex-wife's best paying employers is a federal judge.

You ask the housekeeper for her legal status and social security card before hiring her?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Yes, of course. Charge higher prices. we either pay for the humans they exploit and abuse in taxes, or we pay for replacing abused and exploited humans in higher prices so they can pay livable wages to workers.

Any other response is suggesting that farmers cannot survive without exploiting humans and violating the law. Ridiculous.

[Fandango 1,439]

In housekeeping, nannys, construction, and manual labor (i.e. moving companies) illegals are hired because they work hard, not because they are cheaper. Someone looking to hire laborers knows what he is going to pay for a day's work. He does not care if it's a legal or illegal. He wants someone who will work hard and do a good job. If the job is done well, he will employ that same laborer day after day. It has nothing to do with an illegal doing it for cheaper. He was going to pay someone $100/cash for a 12 hour day of work anyhow. Illegal or legal makes no difference to him. Quality of work is what makes the difference.

Man, I love generalizations! In the other thread, it was put forth that illegals were more family minded, too.

[Ready to do it 101]

I personally know nothing about farming, etc. I'm just stating what I have seen (direct... being it was my ex-wife and wife for many years) and heard (from her various friends who also clean houses, babysit, watch a house over the weekend, walk dogs etc.) the last 15 years. And these friends have spouses who work as laborers. I would agree that the woman have it much easier... I.e. Get paid $100/day to walk a dog twice a day for 30 minutes, get paid $1,000 to stay and take care of someone's house over the weekend, etc. The men have to work harder for their money. Now, will anyone pay someone $1,000 to watch their house over the weekend? No. But people who have employed a maid for years, and that maid has taught their children how to walk, draw, talk, take them to school etc... they are basically part of the family. The exploitations might occur in farming or even on the male side via hard labor, but it rarely occurs on the female side. Why? Because if the female doesn't like the owner, they say hasta la vista. I saw my ex-wife many times add an extra house here or there and come home and say, "I'm not cleaning that house anymore." I'd ask, "Why not?" In Spanish... "That old lady just wanted to tell me what to do the whole time. $200 to be told what to do for 5 hours... never again."... and then she would be referred to someone else if she had an available slot. The good ones have as many jobs available as they want.