Tea Party less popular than atheists and Muslims

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Your ad hominem attacks are tiresome. You have yet to back up your statement or your voiding of my statements except through personal attacks which avoid the real question, which you are apparently not willing to discuss.

You have yet to substantiate your claim that about half of Americans don't pay federal taxes. That is a LIE. A lie put forth by right wing nuts looking to create the false impression that lower income working people don't have any federal tax burden to shoulder. That's nonsense and you will have to live with the fact that from time to time you will run into people that will call you out when you are trying to spread that right wing LIE.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Can you back up the claim that those with the smallest incomes have a heavier tax burden? I am in the 33% tax bracket. Tell me how someone who is in the 15% tax bracket pays more than I do?

It's a simple math exercise, really. If you are indeed in the 33% bracket, you should be able to figure it out.

[Ban Hammer 13,554]

Not true. Playing the victim card, i.e. THE BIG BAD GOVERNMENT is coming to rob millionaires and billionaires, better stock up on ammo, is the modus operandi. The casus belli is that because the tax code MIGHT affect some of the wealthiest Americans, we should leave them alone since they run the country.

1st proof of my post.

Oh, boo hoo hoo Charles.

Have I hurt your feelings?

Here's a bandaid. Hope you feel better on your ow-ie.

2nd proof of my post.

[Robert&Karen 264]

You have yet to substantiate your claim that about half of Americans don't pay federal taxes. That is a LIE. A lie put forth by right wing nuts looking to create the false impression that lower income working people don't have any federal tax burden to shoulder. That's nonsense and you will have to live with the fact that from time to time you will run into people that will call you out when you are trying to spread that right wing LIE.

I posted several sources that claim 43-51% of families in America do not pay federal income taxes. If you claim it is a lie, show me where the numbers are different and we will go from there.

[Robert&Karen 264]

It's a simple math exercise, really. If you are indeed in the 33% bracket, you should be able to figure it out.

Gee, I make $300k and at 33% pay $100k in taxes, taking home $200k.

Johnny makes $30k and at 15% pays $4.5k in taxes, taking home $25.5k.

Are you mad that at the end of the day I still take home more than Johnny does? Because this simple math shows I pay more. Your calculator must be broken.

[mawilson 2,133]

Gee, I make $300k and at 33% pay $100k in taxes, taking home $200k.

Johnny makes $30k and at 15% pays $4.5k in taxes, taking home $25.5k.

Your math is wrong.

Being in the 33% bracket doesn't mean your entire income is taxed at that rate.

The tax rates are tiered and variable.

2010 Federal tax Rate Schedules

If you're married filing jointly, you're taxed

10% of the amount over $0 but less than $16,750

15% of the amount over $16,750 but less than $68,000

25% of the amount over $68,000 but less than $137,300

28% of the amount over $137,300 but less than $209,250

33% of the amount over $209,250 but less than $373,650

35% of the amount over $373,650

So if your AGI is $300,000, your tax is $46,833.50 plus 33 percent of the difference between $300,000 and $209,250:

Tax = $46,833.50 + ($300,000 - $209,250) * 0.33 = $46,833.50 + $29,947.50 = $76,781.00

Your effective rate is therefore $76,781 / $300,000 = 25%

Not to mention that your AGI (taxable income) is not the same as your gross income - it's the latter minus all your deductions and exemptions, so the actual effective rate is even lower than 25%.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Your math is wrong.

Being in the 33% bracket doesn't mean your entire income is taxed at that rate.

The tax rates are tiered and variable.

2010 Federal tax Rate Schedules

If you're married filing jointly, you're taxed

10% of the amount over $0 but less than $16,750

15% of the amount over $16,750 but less than $68,000

25% of the amount over $68,000 but less than $137,300

28% of the amount over $137,300 but less than $209,250

33% of the amount over $209,250 but less than $373,650

35% of the amount over $373,650

So if your AGI is $300,000, your tax is $46,833.50 plus 33 percent of the difference between $300,000 and $209,250:

Tax = $46,833.50 + ($300,000 - $209,250) * 0.33 = $46,833.50 + $29,947.50 = $76,781.00

Your effective rate is therefore $76,781 / $300,000 = 25%

Not to mention that your AGI (taxable income) is not the same as your gross income - it's the latter minus all your deductions and exemptions, so the actual effective rate is even lower than 25%.

[Nina~ 431]

Gee, I make $300k and at 33% pay $100k in taxes, taking home $200k.

Johnny makes $30k and at 15% pays $4.5k in taxes, taking home $25.5k.

Are you mad that at the end of the day I still take home more than Johnny does? Because this simple math shows I pay more. Your calculator must be broken.

Either you are bullshitting or you need to fire your accountant. You might be in the 33% tax bracket, but you should be paying only around 25% of your income(assuming that you are married and filing jointly).

http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

looks like Mawilson beat me to it.

[Robert&Karen 264]

If I was marrying filing jointly WHY would I be on this forum? I file Single Zero.

And YES I know about the aggregate, I was trying to keep it simple.

Now finish your statement. How much does Johnny really pay in taxes then? $3,662.50 using your math.

So if I pay $76,781 in taxes and Johnny pay $3,662, HOW do you come to YOUR conclusion that he pays MORE taxes????

See, you can poke holes in my statement but it STILL proves you wrong.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I posted several sources that claim 43-51% of families in America do not pay federal income taxes. If you claim it is a lie, show me where the numbers are different and we will go from there.

Your claim that I disputed was that roughly half of Americans pay no federal tax. I am well aware of the stats on taxpayers that do not owe any federal income tax but these taxpayers still pay federal taxes - FICA taxes and various excise taxes - FICA alone being 7.65% on each and every dollar they earn (not this year since we have a 2% payroll tax holiday in 2011). In addition to that burden, they also pay a disproportionate share of their meager incomes in sales, property and various other state and local taxes.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Mr. Big Dog

[Zero Sum 305]

I still think he's missing the point about what the percentages mean for taxes, income, and relative pay...

Could it mean there's some leg-pulling going on here?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Gee, I make $300k and at 33% pay $100k in taxes, taking home $200k.

It's painfully clear that you are not making $300K. You would know your income tax burden is well below $100K at that income level. You're just bullshitting.

[Robert&Karen 264]

Your claim that I disputed was that roughly half of Americans pay no federal tax. I am well aware of the stats on taxpayers that do not owe any federal income tax but these taxpayers still pay federal taxes - FICA taxes and various excise taxes - FICA alone being 7.65% on each and every dollar they earn (not this year since we have a 2% payroll tax holiday in 2011). In addition to that burden, they also pay a disproportionate share of their meager incomes in sales, property and various other state and local taxes.

Yes we are talking federal INCOME taxes. FICA is for Social Security, so technically you should get that money back when you retire. My employer pays no FICA, we have our own retirement. Thank God because it is a dead end system designed for people who cannot manage their own retirement.

And YES they pay a disproportionate share of their INCOME in sales taxes, to pick just one. 8% flat rate, for example. If we each spend $100 we each pay $8 in sales taxes.That $8 to them means a lot more than $8 to me, of course. But I am more apt to spend $10,000 on something and pay $800 in taxes, whereas a person with $15k income will not have $10k to spend on say a car or something.

And YES I know that in the final run the guy who pays no federal income taxes still pays something. All flat rate taxes are disproportionate. Is that bad? Should sales taxes be graduated too? I'm only talking federal income taxes. Unless you live in a state with no sales tax and no state tax and don't pay FICA.

You still have not answered me: So if I pay $76,781 in taxes and Johnny pay $3,662, HOW do you come to YOUR conclusion that he pays MORE taxes????

Edited August 19, 2011 by aorobert

[mawilson 2,133]

HOW do you come to YOUR conclusion that he pays MORE taxes????

I never claimed he did, that was scandal:

while many Americans pay no federal income tax, it turns out that the relative tax burden falls most heavily on those with the smallest incomes. That is - the poor and middle class shoulder a grater proportional tax burden as a percentage of their income (mostly because of payroll FICA and sales taxes) than do the wealthy. Is that fair? I don't think so.

I actually think he's wrong - despite the regressive nature of FICA taxes, the rich still pay more taxes as a percentage of their income.

How could they not? Mathematically speaking, as their income approaches infinity, the effective tax rate converges to 35 percent.

Of course, many wealthy individuals and taxpayers who own pass-through taxation businesses (such as LLCs) benefit from being able to reduce their taxable income by expenses they incur as part of business operations, but that's another story.

[Zero Sum 305]

mawilson-

Mathematically speaking, as their income approaches infinity, the effective tax rate converges to 35 percent.

Actually, if that were the case, the convergence means its a finite amount as a percentage of that infinite income.