Berlin Wall turns 50

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

You really need to study the decline of the Soviet Union. Reagans speech had NOTHING to do with it and neither did Polish Solidarity (Czechs had that in 1968 and you see how well it worked for them) Those were both symptoms, not causes.

1968 and 1989 were different worlds. If you don't think Lech Wałęsa sent the Kremlin into a panic, I don't know what you were watching at the time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dont-blame-us-for-stalins-slaughter-says-putin-1938727.html

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

We have to or they would move it to "off Topic" and no one would ever see it again.

Psssst...the Berlin Wall is political.

The Poles had ten times the population as the Czechs and were raising h*ll. Now you take the political tool known as the Roman Catholic Church and have them elect a Polish Pope throw in a costly war (Afghan) and you have what's called a Royal Flush.

[nane1104 146]

We have to or they would move it to "off Topic" and no one would ever see it again.

Psssst...the Berlin Wall is political.

Oh really, political? WOW, I never noticed...just kidding.

I guess it's a german thing to first think about all the cool stuff that happened when the wall came down instead of first and pretty much only discuss the political background.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

TOP-SECRET: Fall of Berlin Wall Caused Anxiety More than Joy at Highest Levels

Washington, D.C., July 29th, 2011 – The fall of the Berlin Wall 20 years ago generated major anxiety in capitals from Warsaw to Washington, to the point of outright opposition to the possibility of German unification, according to documents from Soviet, American and European secret files posted on the Web today by the National Security Archive.

Solidarity hero Lech Walesa told West German chancellor Helmut Kohl on the very day the Wall would fall that “events in the GDR [East Germany] are developing too quickly” and “at the wrong time,” that the Wall could fall in a week or two (it would be a matter of hours) and then Kohl and the West would shift all their attention and aid to the GDR, leaving poor Poland “in the background.” And indeed, Kohl cut short his visit to Warsaw and flew back to Germany as soon as the news arrived of the breach of the Wall.

British prime minister Margaret Thatcher earlier had told Soviet general secretary Mikhail Gorbachev that “Britain and Western Europe are not interested in the unification of Germany. The words written in the NATO communiqué may sound different, but disregard them.” Top Gorbachev aide Anatoly Chernyaev concluded that Thatcher wanted to prevent unification “with our hands” and not her own.

Former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski informed Soviet Politburo member Aleksandr Yakovlev, “I openly said that I am in favor of Poland and Hungary remaining in the Warsaw Treaty Organization. Both blocs should not be disbanded right now. I do not know what will happen if the GDR ceases to exist. There will be one Germany, united and strong. This does not correspond to either your or our interests.”

One of the few highest-level expressions of joy over the fall of the Wall actually occurred in Moscow, in the diary of Gorbachev aide Chernyaev, who wrote on November 10, “The Berlin Wall has collapsed. This entire era in the history of the socialist system is over… That is what Gorbachev has done. And he has indeed turned out to be a great leader. He has sensed the pace of history and helped history to find a natural channel.”

The new documents, most of them appearing in English for the first time, are part of the forthcoming book, “Masterpieces of History”: The Peaceful End of the Cold War in Europe, 1989, edited by the National Security Archive’s Svetlana Savranskaya, Thomas Blanton, and Vladislav Zubok and published by the Central European University Press (Budapest/New York) in the Archive’s Cold War Reader series edited by Malcolm Byrne.

http://berndpulch.org/2011/07/29/top-secret-fall-of-berlin-wall-caused-anxiety-more-than-joy-at-highest-levels/

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Oh really, political? WOW, I never noticed...just kidding.

I guess it's a german thing to first think about all the cool stuff that happened when the wall came down instead of first and pretty much only discuss the political background.

It was a cool thing for the entire world...until the West Germans started complaining about subsidizing the East Germans a few years later. That's the part that was depressing.

[nane1104 146]

It was a cool thing for the entire world...until the West Germans started complaining about subsidizing the East Germans a few years later. That's the part that was depressing.

I agree. (Oh no, did I say that?;-) )

I think it was not so much the western part complaining about helping out the eastern part in general. It started to get to the point where cities in the west became worse off than eastern cities.

There is really a lot to it, very complex. I would say it is unfair to say that western germans didn't want to support rebuilding the east, that would be to easy...

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

It was a cascade failure for sure. One could say the fall was inevitable with the death of Tito and the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Once (ethnic) nationalism took hold there, the collapse of the USSR was shown possible.

The USSR dissolved before Yugoslavia. Are you SURE you aren't Steven? Your avatar looks like Steven and he thinks the French Revolution (1799) influenced OUR constitution (1789)

A number of things combined to dismantle the USSR and it WAS going to happen at some point, but why it happened when it happened was basically because of two things...

Gorbachev tried to reform the country politically but not economically. Big mistake. FSU people do not give a rat's @ss about politics or politicians because unlike Americans they found out long ago they are all worthless parasites. They were standing in line for bread and did not have a lot of modern conveniences and "stuff" China, on the other hand, still solidly communist, reformed their country economically first and the people are perfectly happy (well maybe not perfectly happy, but happy enough) that communism is still alive and well. That is one. A friend that lived in Belgium during the Nazi occupation once told me "Freedom is directly proportionate to the amount of food in your stomach" Some say Gorby finished what Krutschev started but Nikita Sergeyovich tried to reform the country economically and offer people ways to improve their lives. He eventually got retired for it.

The other is that Reagan committed the USSR to an extremely expensive arms escalation that the USSR could not afford. That kicked the legs out of the house of cards and it came tumbling down. Reagan did not make it a house of cards, he may have been the one to recognize it WAS a house of cards.

Afghanistan was Brezhnev's error and he was an evil man right up there with Stalin. It was a big, expensive mistake they could not afford, that is true and it piled on the hurt but they USSR would have survived it, in itself.

Oddly, no one has mention Chernobyl and that was a HUGE problem for the USSR, not so much that it happened but that they covered it up for several weeks and then told people downwind. My MIL, who still has a photo of Stalin on her wall, lost confidence in the USSR that day and she claims it was one of few things in life that made her cry. I believe her.

The eastern bloc countries were always a problem for Moscow, mostly because they never liked being used as a trip wire and being expected to stop bullets intended for Russians. Stalin even said that his enemies were not a problem, his problem was that he was surrounded by "friends" Poland at the time was no more or less trouble than Hungary or Czechoslovakia ever was. Their timing was better.

There is a lot to study and this is by no means concise and it is an interesting story with more twists and turns and sub-plots than any fiction author could ever write.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I agree. (Oh no, did I say that?;-) )

I think it was not so much the western part complaining about helping out the eastern part in general. It started to get to the point where cities in the west became worse off than eastern cities.

There is really a lot to it, very complex. I would say it is unfair to say that western germans didn't want to support rebuilding the east, that would be to easy...

I don't think the West Germans realized how dilapidated the East was. Not only rebuilding, but finding work for a generation of Germans that had been on a Socialist system and weren't ready for the jump to Capitalism. East Germany emptied out looking for work, and it's still hasn't caught up to the West, which it will eventually, it's just going to take time.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The USSR dissolved before Yugoslavia.

USSR

Between August and December (of 1991), 10 republics declared their independence, largely out of fear of another coup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

Yugoslavia

Slovenia – In the 23 December 1990 referendum 89% voted for independence – which was declared on 25 June 1991.

Croatia – In the 2 May 1991 referenendum 93.24% voted for independence – which was declared on 25 June 1991.

Macedonia – In the 8 Sep 1991 referendum 95.26% voted for independence – which was declared on 25 September 1991.

Bosnia – In the 29 February and 1 March 1992 referendum 92.7% voted for independence – which was declared on 3 March 1992

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia#Constitutional_dispute_and_nationalism_.281974.E2.80.931987.29

Edited August 16, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

USSR

Between August and December (of 1991), 10 republics declared their independence, largely out of fear of another coup.

Yugoslavia

Slovenia – In the 23 December 1990 referendum 89% voted for independence – which was declared on 25 June 1991.

Croatia – In the 2 May 1991 referenendum 93.24% voted for independence – which was declared on 25 June 1991.

Macedonia – In the 8 Sep 1991 referendum 95.26% voted for independence – which was declared on 25 September 1991.

Bosnia – In the 29 February and 1 March 1992 referendum 92.7% voted for independence – which was declared on 3 March 1992

So I was right.

And the war over those declarations of independence continued until 1999, peaking at the time of Clinton being impeached for copping BJs from Monica.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

So I was right.

And the war over those declarations of independence continued until 1999, peaking at the time of Clinton being impeached for copping BJs from Monica.

Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia were admitted as member states of the United Nations on 22 May 1992. Macedonia was admitted as a member state of the United Nations on 8 April 1993.

The Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic had already joined the UN as original members on October 24, 1945, together with the USSR. After declaring independence, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic changed its name to Ukraine on August 24, 1991, and on September 19, 1991, the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic informed the UN that it had changed its name to Belarus.

Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were admitted to the UN on September 17, 1991.

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, the Republic of Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan were admitted to the UN on March 2, 1992.

Georgia was admitted to the UN on July 31, 1992.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

But, now that is set aside, I was referring to the beginnings of the dissolution of Yugoslavia in 1974 with the passage of a new Constitution and the death of the only man, Josip Broz Tito, that could keep that menagerie intact. After his death in 1980, the autonomy of the ethnic provinces grew, and nationalism spread into the USSR from there.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Has anyone of you been in Germany when the wall came down? When the first people walked through the checkpoints or climbed over the wall? When families got reunited?

Yes, of course. Sonnenallee it was. Just before midnight. It was awesome! It's just a line in the street now where the wall once stood.

[nane1104 146]

Yes, of course. Sonnenallee it was. Just before midnight. It was awesome! It's just a line in the street now where the wall once stood.

We have family in the former east, crossing the border for visits was insane. I mean, they literally took our car apart...like we wanted to smuggle someone in, hehe...well, probably more smuggle goods in. For me as a child it was rather scary.

My Dad used to be in the western border control and he said he had a few encounters with his eastern counterpart and none of them were pleasant at all...