Is this offensive?

[zzerous 0]

The pope ignored history and acted as if he is innocent and people took his speech out of context.

They DID take his speech out of context.

And don't try the "Pope Lover" thing on me. I'm atheist, and couldn't care less what the Pope condones or doesn't.

He also ignored the Holocaust which happened in Europe and in his own country killing innocent people and again in the name of God and because they are different.

What the hell does the holocaust have to do with God? Hitler wasn't exactly a Xian.

He claims that Islam forces itself by war

No....the book he was quoting, which was written in the 1340s, said that, not the Pope.

First of all I am not trying the Pope Lover on you or anyone. I could careless, but what did you want me to call him..he is the Pope is not it he.

Second, Hitler was one man (and was a religious man according to some accounts), the entire nation in Germany (and some other European nations) condoned to some level the holocaust. After all it happened at the hands of the Germen and other Europeans which are Christians

Third, as the pope he should not have quoted any book that does not represent his views. Any way he has the chance to come out of the closet and tell us what he thinks about Islam. He still even after his speech today did not share with us his views, except for what they posted on one of their websites claiming that the Vatican regards Muslims with "esteem”…. some PR BS.

[Mirorgate 0]

First of all I am not trying the Pope Lover on you or anyone. I could careless, but what did you want me to call him..he is the Pope is not it he.

Second, Hitler was one man (and was a religious man according to some accounts), the entire nation in Germany (and some other European nations) condoned to some level the holocaust. After all it happened at the hands of the Germen and other Europeans which are Christians

Third, as the pope he should not have quoted any book that does not represent his views. Any way he has the chance to come out of the closet and tell us what he thinks about Islam. He still even after his speech today did not share with us his views, except for what they posted on one of their websites claiming that the Vatican regards Muslims with "esteem”…. some PR BS.

so to quote and show contrast in views........ or to make a point regarding a particular train of thought.. one should not quote from places where it is applicable to show the differences? I don't agree with a lot of things because they do not represent my POV... but I quote from them all the time to show the differences, and why i believe a certain way. not to do so is rediculous. to state that he can only quote from places that he agrees with, is rediculous.

[mmmbop1976 1]

Perhaps it should be pointed out that leaving aside religion, there are significant cultural and political differences between "Muslim" and "Christian" countries. Why it always comes down to religion, and not these other factors - never ceases to surprise me.

Political repression, lack of education etc are what fuels fundamentalist interpretations of islam, but that really doesn't imply that Islam is an inherently "hateful" religion.

After all, the likes of KKK (for example) could hardly be called rocket scientists could they?

well, not a fair comparison, i don't think the KKK ever called themselves peaceful and non-violent.

muslims in iran are not repressed, the country is rich, and yet it was the clerics who were leading the angry mobs there. unless i don't understand something here, i believe clerics are religious leaders in islam, are they not?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

well, not a fair comparison, i don't think the KKK ever called themselves peaceful and non-violent.

No but they are religious extremists, who have historically committed heinous acts while claiming to be servants of God. My point was extremism is rooted in ignorance - and that there is a tendency for extremists (in general) to be badly educated, and that they turn to religion partly in the absence of that education.

You might also notice that the leaders and agitators are not the ones blowing themselves up.

Edited September 17, 2006 by erekose

[mmmbop1976 1]

well, not a fair comparison, i don't think the KKK ever called themselves peaceful and non-violent.

No but they are religious extremists, who have historically committed heinous acts while claiming to be servants of God. My point was extremism is rooted in ignorance - and that there is a tendency for extremists (in general) to be badly educated, and that they turn to religion partly in the absence of that education.

You might also notice that the leaders and agitators are not the ones blowing themselves up.

oh, ok, i misunderstood your prev post. yup, you are correct. and i noticed long ago that it's not the leaders blowing themselves up. the other point i was trying to make though, is that this is a supposed peaceful, non-violent religion. now if it was just your average muslim on the street venting his anger at the pope, that's one thing, but when it's being led by the clerics who should know their religion intimately, it makes me wonder if it really is that peaceful of a religion. just seems to be so much anger there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

the other point i was trying to make though, is that this is a supposed peaceful, non-violent religion. now if it was just your average muslim on the street venting his anger at the pope, that's one thing, but when it's being led by the clerics who should know their religion intimately, it makes me wonder if it really is that peaceful of a religion. just seems to be so much anger there.

If you're looking at a country like Iran which has a theocratic form of government, I would argue that the division between religion and politics is rather blurry.

In that sense, it seems people are faulting islam because of the political acts that are carried out in its name, not necessarily because the religion itself condones it. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about Islam, but that doesn't stop people who know as little making sweeping statements about it.

Edited September 17, 2006 by erekose

[PlatyPius 5]

Perhaps it should be pointed out that leaving aside religion, there are significant cultural and political differences between "Muslim" and "Christian" countries. Why it always comes down to religion, and not these other factors - never ceases to surprise me.

Political repression, lack of education etc are what fuels fundamentalist interpretations of islam, but that really doesn't imply that Islam is an inherently "hateful" religion.

I think the real question is which came first; Islam or the "political repression, lack of education, etc."

I would suggest that Islam came first and CREATED those very conditions which you say are more responsible for the murders and firebombings over a RELIGIOUS, not a political, comment. I would think it was obvious why it comes down to religion this time. The Pope...you know, the Catholic guy with the funny hat....quoted a passage about Islam - a Religion - which angered Muslims - followers of Islam - who then murdered a nun and firebombed buildings. How can it possibly NOT be about religion this time?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I would suggest that Islam came first and CREATED those... conditions

How?

[Scott & Lai 12]

Unfortunately this man represents the church and he knows what and why he says what he say. He is not just a man. And I totally I agree that not all Catholics or Christians believe in what he says, the pressure is not on the western world or Christians is on their leaders who are desperately trying to poison the bridges between cultures and religion. The pope ignored history and acted as if he is innocent and people took his speech out of context.

He ignored the 500 years of crusade in the middle east when his church and by the name of God killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of Muslims and eastern christens and stole their land and wealth for over hundred years. the pope ignored when in the last century the over hundred years when the west occupied the Arab/ Muslim land and killed hundred of thousands, I never heard an apology or a comment for that.

He also ignored the Holocaust which happened in Europe and in his own country killing innocent people and again in the name of God and because they are different. Any by the way the Jew sought refuge with many Muslim Khalif's (leaders) when they ran away from the discrimination and the killing that was waged against them in Europe- go the National Museum of History in NY and read the testaments from many of the Jewish rabaies.

He claims that Islam forces itself by war, please let him or anyone else go back to history and count the number of wars between Muslims and others and tell me where it happened; in Europe or in the East? And who moved armies to fight whom.

The pope ignored the many years of killing his church initiated against the Eastern Church killing many thousands of their leaders unless they submit to the pope in Rome.

And if Muslims are so cruel and forceful, how come we still have many Christians living among us in the Arab World with their own churches and getting the full support from Muslim /Arab government. As a matter of fact we have an entire country (Lebanon) who by the constitution must have a Christian president.

And No we do not want the western world to be sensitive to our needs or around us or stop your celebrations. Your religion and celebrations do not offend us as matter of fact we Muslims believe equally in Muses, Jesus and Mohammed; they are all brothers and messenger of God. What offended us is what some the western leaders and recently church leaders lie about our religion and prophet. And what offend us more is when they play innocent and ignorant.

I urge you to read more and do your own research

The Crusades were a response to 300 years of Muslim invasions and oppression. The Near East, Middle East and North Africa, the cradle of Christianity, used to be Christian civilizations, till the Muslims wiped them out. They almost did the same in Europe.

[sarah and hicham 3]

My husband is Muslim and he said the Pope made a boo boo with that one.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Unfortunately this man represents the church and he knows what and why he says what he say. He is not just a man. And I totally I agree that not all Catholics or Christians believe in what he says, the pressure is not on the western world or Christians is on their leaders who are desperately trying to poison the bridges between cultures and religion. The pope ignored history and acted as if he is innocent and people took his speech out of context.

He ignored the 500 years of crusade in the middle east when his church and by the name of God killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of Muslims and eastern christens and stole their land and wealth for over hundred years. the pope ignored when in the last century the over hundred years when the west occupied the Arab/ Muslim land and killed hundred of thousands, I never heard an apology or a comment for that.

He also ignored the Holocaust which happened in Europe and in his own country killing innocent people and again in the name of God and because they are different. Any by the way the Jew sought refuge with many Muslim Khalif's (leaders) when they ran away from the discrimination and the killing that was waged against them in Europe- go the National Museum of History in NY and read the testaments from many of the Jewish rabaies.

He claims that Islam forces itself by war, please let him or anyone else go back to history and count the number of wars between Muslims and others and tell me where it happened; in Europe or in the East? And who moved armies to fight whom.

The pope ignored the many years of killing his church initiated against the Eastern Church killing many thousands of their leaders unless they submit to the pope in Rome.

And if Muslims are so cruel and forceful, how come we still have many Christians living among us in the Arab World with their own churches and getting the full support from Muslim /Arab government. As a matter of fact we have an entire country (Lebanon) who by the constitution must have a Christian president.

And No we do not want the western world to be sensitive to our needs or around us or stop your celebrations. Your religion and celebrations do not offend us as matter of fact we Muslims believe equally in Muses, Jesus and Mohammed; they are all brothers and messenger of God. What offended us is what some the western leaders and recently church leaders lie about our religion and prophet. And what offend us more is when they play innocent and ignorant.

I urge you to read more and do your own research

The Crusades were a response to 300 years of Muslim invasions and oppression. The Near East, Middle East and North Africa, the cradle of Christianity, used to be Christian civilizations, till the Muslims wiped them out. They almost did the same in Europe.

Tell 'em brother!!

[chri'stina 190]

well.........

*ehem*

personally, i'm offended by this overwhelming pressure for the western world to accept islam as legitimate and good. since when is 'tolerance' equal to 'submission"?

do muslim leaders every single day say things that are offensive to Christians? you betcha. but......do you see millions of Christians rioting in the streets? do you see televised broadcasts of the beheadings of muslims who are captured and in prison?

of course, that's just my opinion, which, by the way, was solicited.

I'd also like to add that am not a follower of the Pope, and am not catholic, but protestant. Yet I still think the Pope has a right to say what he pleases, as long as he is not threatening or wishing death upon anyone. He shouldn't have to be politically correct, though he usually is anyway.

Do you know how many insults towards Christianity, and insults towards even the person I consider my Messiah I have heard, just living in the USA, a supposed "Christian" nation? Yet I don't go around acting hateful back to those people. 1-Who cares what they say? They're my beliefs and no one can make me change them. 2-We are taught in the bible that if people wanted to kill Jesus and said horrible things about Him, the same will likely happen to us and it should not be a surprise at all. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the spiritual world.

(and I am sure someone could be offended by what I wrote...)

Edited September 18, 2006 by stina&suj

[incanada1234 0]

Political repression, lack of education etc are what fuels fundamentalist interpretations of islam, but that really doesn't imply that Islam is an inherently "hateful" religion.

No, what implies it is their holy book.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Political repression, lack of education etc are what fuels fundamentalist interpretations of islam, but that really doesn't imply that Islam is an inherently "hateful" religion.

No, what implies it is their holy book.

I guess you would know. In detail.

The same might also be said about the Old Testament, but I suppose that doesn't count.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Pope remarks reveal harder stance

It can be summed up in a single word: reciprocity. It means that if Muslims want to enjoy religious freedom in the West, then Christians should have an equal right to follow their faith in Islamic states, without fear of persecution.

One of the first signs of a toughening of the Vatican's stance came with the removal from office of Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald.

The British-born cleric ran a Vatican department that promoted dialogue with other religions. A distinguished scholar on Arab affairs, he was an acknowledged expert on the Islamic world.

The decision by Benedict XVI to remove him from his post, and send him to Egypt as papal nuncio, was widely seen as a demotion.

Some wondered about the wisdom of the move.

Father Thomas Reese, a Jesuit scholar and an authority on the workings of the Vatican, told the BBC news website of his concerns: "The Pope's worst decision so far has been the exiling of Archbishop Fitzgerald," he said in an interview in April this year.

"He was the smartest guy in the Vatican on relations with Muslims. You don't exile someone like that, you listen to them.

"If the Vatican says something dumb about Muslims, people will die in parts of Africa and churches will be burned in Indonesia, let alone what happens in the Middle East.

"It would be better for Pope Benedict to have Fitzgerald close to him."

It is often argued that a real dialogue with Islam requires an open debate, even at the risk of sometimes causing offence

That warning now seems prophetic.

Did nobody at the Vatican anticipate the way the Pope's words might be taken out of context, and the likely reaction?

Tragic. This Pope doesn't seem to posess the grace or charisma that John Paul II had. JPII was a man of the people - this new Pope seems so removed and impersonal.