The Laws of Islam

[sarah and hicham 3]

I am so confused over all this whole thread that my head is going to explode! Out of curiosity, are there not a lot of us on the forum that did the "contract" marriage because of the difficultly we would have without it when we were in our SO's country?

What kind of difficulty?

[hurriya 0]

It's also technically not illegal in this country so no one is violating any laws here. It is perfectly legal in the US for a man and a woman to live together and not have a marriage license. The only law that says we have to have a marriage license is the immigration law and that doesn't apply until after the non-USC's arrival in the US.

Personally, I don't like the idea of registering a marriage in western countries because it places restrictions on women that Allah did not place. An example of this would be that she must wait for at least a year to get her divorce. That's one year that she must remain unmarried with no husband to support or care for her. How is that any different from those men in the past suspending women in marriage... so they're neither married nor single? Not to mention that it is very expensive to get the courts to do anything for you regarding civil matters like this. The same services should be made available to everyone even if they don't have money to hire lawyers and such. Sadly though, and I speak from experience, if you don't have a lot of money, you are left in the cold with no rights.

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

[sarah and hicham 3]

It's also technically not illegal in this country so no one is violating any laws here. It is perfectly legal in the US for a man and a woman to live together and not have a marriage license. The only law that says we have to have a marriage license is the immigration law and that doesn't apply until after the non-USC's arrival in the US.

Personally, I don't like the idea of registering a marriage in western countries because it places restrictions on women that Allah did not place. An example of this would be that she must wait for at least a year to get her divorce. That's one year that she must remain unmarried with no husband to support or care for her. How is that any different from those men in the past suspending women in marriage... so they're neither married nor single? Not to mention that it is very expensive to get the courts to do anything for you regarding civil matters like this. The same services should be made available to everyone even if they don't have money to hire lawyers and such. Sadly though, and I speak from experience, if you don't have a lot of money, you are left in the cold with no rights.

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

Yes, it seems very contradicting. I guess you have to modify who you obey depending on where you are. Obey Allah always, and sometimes obey Allah and also the law of the land.

[chiquita 0]

I am so confused over all this whole thread that my head is going to explode! Out of curiosity, are there not a lot of us on the forum that did the "contract" marriage because of the difficultly we would have without it when we were in our SO's country?

I asked my husband about our marriage in Morocco. It is a legal marriage...whew cuz from what I am reading I sure didn't know. I know if we were married here it would be legal but I sure don't know what this "contract" marriage means, or the other terms used.

I know there are people who get married in the court house and those who get married in religous places and they are all legal by law here. However, when it comes to what other countries consider legal I have no idea. My guess would be that <God Allah> would want us to follow the law of the land (or country) as long as it does not violate his law.

Let me also say I know this thread is about "The laws of Islam". But I sure wanted to know where I stood since so many terms have been used which can be very confusing to those like me who do know speak Arabic.

I hope to hear more...

chi

[JElsafty 0]

I am so confused over all this whole thread that my head is going to explode! Out of curiosity, are there not a lot of us on the forum that did the "contract" marriage because of the difficultly we would have without it when we were in our SO's country?

What kind of difficulty?

For starters, the first time I went to meed Wael in Egypt I was staying at a hotel there. He was forbidden to even come to my room, we had to sit and talk in the lobby or go else where. When we went to the pyramids, they would try to charge me $100.00 to get in and only charge him around $5.00. Same thing at the museum. Wael had a flat of his own, but because of the culture there, it was not a good idea for me to stay with him even though I would stay in another room.

Before I went for my second visit Wael had been speaking to a friend of his fathers that is a lawyer. He is the one that mentioned how we would feel about having the contract because at least then we would be able to stay together (not necessarly in the same room) and would not get all the grief over it. We could have our wedding party, etc there with his family there, and then once he came here we could have our wedding. Now I will add that we were actually going to have the marriage registered there, but due to lack of time and other things out of our control, we were not able to. I will say though it was amazing how easy we were able to do things with our contract. Pyramids were a breeze along with many other things.

Now I read that doing these contracts are considered "orfi?" This actually upset my husband as well due to the fact that he knows many good muslim men that has done these contracts and had no ill intentions when doing them. As far as I'm concerned, God knows our hearts and God will do the judging on me and my husband.

[chiquita 0]

I am so confused over all this whole thread that my head is going to explode! Out of curiosity, are there not a lot of us on the forum that did the "contract" marriage because of the difficultly we would have without it when we were in our SO's country?

What kind of difficulty?

For starters, the first time I went to meed Wael in Egypt I was staying at a hotel there. He was forbidden to even come to my room, we had to sit and talk in the lobby or go else where. When we went to the pyramids, they would try to charge me $100.00 to get in and only charge him around $5.00. Same thing at the museum. Wael had a flat of his own, but because of the culture there, it was not a good idea for me to stay with him even though I would stay in another room.

Before I went for my second visit Wael had been speaking to a friend of his fathers that is a lawyer. He is the one that mentioned how we would feel about having the contract because at least then we would be able to stay together (not necessarly in the same room) and would not get all the grief over it. We could have our wedding party, etc there with his family there, and then once he came here we could have our wedding. Now I will add that we were actually going to have the marriage registered there, but due to lack of time and other things out of our control, we were not able to. I will say though it was amazing how easy we were able to do things with our contract. Pyramids were a breeze along with many other things.

Now I read that doing these contracts are considered "orfi?" This actually upset my husband as well due to the fact that he knows many good muslim men that has done these contracts and had no ill intentions when doing them. As far as I'm concerned, God knows our hearts and God will do the judging on me and my husband.

You are right...<God Allah> knows your heart.

It took us a long time to get married and it turns out I had to come back to get married because of the time limit. We did not have the restrictions or the extortion in Morocco so I do understand. Maybe to some it is wrong, but let the creater of heaven and earth judge the intent of the heart, not us.

chi

[Sofiyya 1,687]

If your contract is not a registered marriage, then yes, it is probably urfi. But you can fix that by doing a proper nikah with witnesses and registering it with the state.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

Allow me to clarify my position...

I don't see a problem following laws in the countries we're in... we're bound by them and we have no choice other than to leave. I do not break the laws here no matter how stupid I deem them to be. There is no law in the US that two people must get married so I am not in violation of any law by not having my marriage registered. When it becomes a legal issue (with immigration), I have no objections to following the law as it does not directly oppose the law of Allah.

Man-made laws that oppose Allah's laws are invalid though. For instance, if a law was passed that everyone in the US has to drink wine at night before bed or, if praying was made illegal or hijab.... it is not haraam for muslims to disobey this law.

However, it is my belief that it's incorrect to render religious verdicts based upon man-made laws -- calling sisters fornicators and issuing fatawa if they sign their marriage contracts with their imam and two witnesses that their marriage is haraam or not valid. --

The culture of it can be rationalized until the speakers turn blue but it doesn't change the religious aspect. It is wrong to declare something haraam based off of man-made laws. The only laws that matter in this regard are the laws of Allah. I believe anyone who places more importance on man-made laws over the laws of Allah is on a dangerous path.

In an ideal muslim community we would only have Allah's laws. Unfortunately, this community does not exist today.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Ok, here's where things get confusing. I mean this will all due respect and I make special accomodation for the non-Muslims among us because I know that you are at a disadvantage when it cones to Islamic procedures. But I must say this.

This stuff about God knows what's in your heart is not law. This thread is about law, not about desire. While you may have the best intentions about what you have done, it makes a difference in law as to how it is done so you cannot be fooled. None of us will know what Allah's judgment will be for us on Judgement Day, but we can know the best way to act while we are here.

Please, no talk of what is in your heart. It has done nothing on these boards but to serve as a cmeans to dismiss the need to learn how things work in the real world. What's in your heart is for a discussion about theology, we are discussing law.

I mean to offend no one.

[JElsafty 0]

If your contract is not a registered marriage, then yes, it is probably urfi. But you can fix that by doing a proper nikah with witnesses and registering it with the state.

We're married in the U.S now

[Sofiyya 1,687]

VP seeks to confuse the issue and I can see why you are confused. She is not speaking rationally about Islam, but about her own desires to do as she pleases. I'm not saying that because we disagree, I'm saying it as a statement of fact. She has been taught badly, and I cannot blame her for that. There is nothing in Islam that allows each Muslim to pick and choose how they will behave and still be in compliance. Islam does have boundaries.

I don't see a problem following laws in the countries we're in... we're bound by them and we have no choice other than to leave. I do not break the laws here no matter how stupid I deem them to be. There is no law in the US that two people must get married so I am not in violation of any law by not having my marriage registered. When it becomes a legal issue (with immigration), I have no objections to following the law as it does not directly oppose the law of Allah.

The fact that there is no law in the US forcing people to marry is irrelevent to the issue at hand. Muslims are required to provide for shura (consultation), protection, justice and stability in their marriages, and that is what we are obligated to seek. She is speaking of apples and oranges.

Man-made laws that oppose Allah's laws are invalid though. For instance, if a law was passed that everyone in the US has to drink wine at night before bed or, if praying was made illegal or hijab.... it is not haraam for muslims to disobey this law.

Again, more red herrings. I will ignore them because they do not address the issue. There is nothing in opposition to Islam or God's law in registering her marriage. As a Muslim, she violated the laws of a Muslim country. I stil don't get how she justifies that, no matter what she believes about US law.

However, it is my belief that it's incorrect to render religious verdicts based upon man-made laws -- calling sisters fornicators and issuing fatawa if they sign their marriage contracts with their imam and two witnesses that their marriage is haraam or not valid. --

No verdict is being rendered about man-made law. We are discussing the requirements of a marriage, which are more complex than the rules about a nikah ceremony. VP is only discussing the ceremony, I am discussing the marriage.

For example, one can do a valid nikah, then invalidate it by a separate act, by refusing to consumate the marriage, which is after the fact that there was a signed nikah before two witnesses. The requirements of a MARRIAGE are inclusive of the requirements of a nikah, but there are requirements beyond the ceremony.

The fact is, in the real world of Muslims, there is law, there are requirements and the Quran tells us who are the fornicators, so it's not like we shouldn't know how to identitify them.

The culture of it can be rationalized until the speakers turn blue but it doesn't change the religious aspect. It is wrong to declare something haraam based off of man-made laws. The only laws that matter in this regard are the laws of Allah. I believe anyone who places more importance on man-made laws over the laws of Allah is on a dangerous path.

This is done every day on every continent where Muslims exist. It is a bida to say that man-made laws are not part of Islam. Fiqh is man-made law, and even the Sunnah was compiled by humans.

In an ideal muslim community we would only have Allah's laws. Unfortunately, this community does not exist today.

This is such convoluted logic. That will only happen if God is the King on earth. Meanwhile, we are all caliphs on earth, and we have to do the best we can with what we have. God's law is our guidance. It is His intent that we study it, discern it and apply it to demonstrate His intent.

We're married in the U.S now

I am very happy for you, sweetie. I could tell by what you posted that your husband is an honorable man. Treasure him!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's also technically not illegal in this country so no one is violating any laws here. It is perfectly legal in the US for a man and a woman to live together and not have a marriage license. The only law that says we have to have a marriage license is the immigration law and that doesn't apply until after the non-USC's arrival in the US.

Well, we are discussing Islamic law, not secular law, so Muslims do need to married to live together. The definition of married is the topic here.

Personally, I don't like the idea of registering a marriage in western countries because it places restrictions on women that Allah did not place. An example of this would be that she must wait for at least a year to get her divorce. That's one year that she must remain unmarried with no husband to support or care for her. How is that any different from those men in the past suspending women in marriage... so they're neither married nor single? Not to mention that it is very expensive to get the courts to do anything for you regarding civil matters like this. The same services should be made available to everyone even if they don't have money to hire lawyers and such. Sadly though, and I speak from experience, if you don't have a lot of money, you are left in the cold with no rights.

Waiting a year is not always true. That depends on where you file. If you want an instant Muslim divorce, try talaq.

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

I, szsz, and trying to explain how Islamic law affects marriage requirements and validity for Muslims. VP is discussing her fantasies. They are unrelated, so if you try to enjoin them, you will be confused.

More to come, but I may have to continue when everyone goes to bed!

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

I, szsz, and trying to explain how Islamic law affects marriage requirements and validity for Muslims. VP is discussing her fantasies. They are unrelated, so if you try to enjoin them, you will be confused.

More to come, but I may have to continue when everyone goes to bed!

as vp didn't make that statement above that you put in red, taking a swipe at her with your reply is uncalled for.

Edited September 16, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Veiled Princess 1]

Now I'm REALLY confused. Are we now following the laws of the land again? I'm pretty sure I read something to the effect that "as Muslims we are only to be governed by the laws of Allah" I know I'm no mathematical whiz, but something is not adding up.

I, szsz, and trying to explain how Islamic law affects marriage requirements and validity for Muslims. VP is discussing her fantasies. They are unrelated, so if you try to enjoin them, you will be confused.

More to come, but I may have to continue when everyone goes to bed!

as vp didn't make that statement above that you put in red, taking a swipe at her with your reply is uncalled for.

Can this chick not post any comment without mentioning me???

[Sofiyya 1,687]

as vp didn't make that statement above that you put in red, taking a swipe at her with your reply is uncalled for.

It was not necessary for her to make the comment for me to mention her. The person who posted refered to the dicotomy between our statements as confusing and I responded in an appropriate manner to distinguish them.

Can this chick not post any comment without mentioning me???

If you don't care to be mentioned. then don't post here. Otherwise, it will happen and that should be no surprise.

misyar: also known as urfi; a lesser form of “marriage” where the woman gives up her financial rights, but the man retains his sexual rights. This is closer to the type of marriage entered into by an owner and his slave than by those between free women and men. It is the Sunni form of muta, and the practice is primarily limited to Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Most scholars reject misyar as Islamically valid.

muqallid: one practicing taqlid, following what you are told without questioning.

mut`a: temporary marriage, indemnity payable in certain cases of divorce by the husband.

Naskh: abrogation or repeal (naskh, repealing passage, mansukh, the one repealed).

Shura: mutual consultation.

siyasa shar`iyya siyasa: an act or law within the limits assigned to it by the sharia.

shurut: stipulations in contracts; legal formularies; prerequisites; formal requirements.

takaful: mutual responsibility; mutual guarantee.

taqlid: relying upon the opinion of another, not practicing ijtihad.

sharika, shirka: society, partnership.

sunna: precedent, normative legal custom; recommended.

ulama': the religious scholars of Islam.

`urf: custom.

zina: adultery, unlawful intercourse.

More to come.