Under the gun: Murder in Chicago and Toronto

[Ste 6]

Chicago has actually had amongst the most stringent gun control laws in the country for the past 30 years, including a virtual handgun ban, and it has not helped - witness the stark statistics in the OP. Those gun laws have now been thwarted in the recent McDonald v. Chicago Supreme court ruling.

Many have suggested that the reason tough gun laws in Chicago have not worked is that guns are readily available at gun shows and from dealers out of state (e.g. neighboring Indiana), as well as illegally. Those who are willing to use a handgun illegally aren't going to be put off by purchasing one and importing it within Chicago city limits in contravention of the gun law. Hence, the only effective gun laws would be cast much wider - e.g. regionally or nationally. As in Canada. But in the wake of the SCOTUS Heller and McDonald decisions, not in the USA.

You're right. That's the problem. If you could somehow get strict and well enforced gun controls for the whole country though, I'm sure the murder rate in Chicago would go down.

My point is that a lot of people believe the following statement: "Gun control has been tried and doesn't seem to work in America, therefore gun control would never work anywhere. So whether people have easy access to guns or not, murder rates would be the same." which is a kind of logical fallacy.

Perhaps having guns lowers the risk of other crimes due to the fact people can defend themselves more effectively. The US is still number 8 in the crimes per capita table though.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

VA or VT?

The pipeline is DC/VA to these parts.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Move to Australia, it's safe there.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

yes, blame guns for the actions of people.

Blame access to guns, not guns themselves. The silly argument that gun violence isn't a problem because guns need people to fire them flies in the face of reality.

PS last time I checked the Canadian government was hardly an iron boot on the necks of its poor defenseless civilians.

[Ban Hammer 13,554]

She doesn't want one in the house.

I still do want one, but for ####### inexplicable reasons that don't make much practical sense but have something to do with wanting to exercise each and every one of my Bill of Rights freedoms at some point. One of these days I intend to demand that a police officer show me a search warrant , and I expect to "Plead the Fifth" too , just so I can say I've done it.

At the moment we still don't have one.

take her to the range and let her shoot. that will change her mind.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Move to Australia, it's safe there.

Have you forgotten about vegemite?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Illinois is one of two states that do not allow concealed carry of firearms.

Vermont allows ANYONE (even people from Toronto) to carry concealed weapons, no permit required. Our murder rate is less than 1/3 of Toronto's and the lowest in the US. Why?

Obviously gun laws have nothing to do with it.

Canm you think of any other reasons and how they can be addressed? Gun laws don't do it.

FYI Russia has a murder rate 5 times higher than the US and a ban on the private ownership of handguns. Why?

Move to Australia, it's safe there.

Australia is 7 times more dangerous than Vermont. If you want to be safe, move to Vermont and buy a gun.

If other states want to have a crime rate as low as Vermont's, they should copy our gun laws.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Illinois is one of two states that do not allow concealed carry of firearms.

Vermont allows ANYONE (even people from Toronto) to carry concealed weapons, no permit required. Our murder rate is less than 1/3 of Toronto's and the lowest in the US. Why?

Obviously gun laws have nothing to do with it.

Canm you think of any other reasons and how they can be addressed? Gun laws don't do it.

FYI Russia has a murder rate 5 times higher than the US and a ban on the private ownership of handguns. Why?

Australia is 7 times more dangerous than Vermont. If you want to be safe, move to Vermont and buy a gun.

If other states want to have a crime rate as low as Vermont's, they should copy our gun laws.

How many states have gun laws similar to Vermont?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

How many states have gun laws similar to Vermont?

None.

Vermont is the only state that allows ANY person to carry concealed handguns without a permit. Federal law prohibits posession of firearms by convicted felons so they would be ruled out by Federal law.

Vermont has the country's lowest crime rate and it has been that way for decades. Vermont has never restricted the carrying of concealed weapons at any time in its history

Despite...

We have an international border, most of it entirely unprotected, and the state is a route for drug importation from Canada to Boston and New York City, no police officer has been killed by firearms in the line of duty...ever. A few have died in car accidents and such

We have the lowest rate of ownership of alarm systems, and virtually no one locks their doors (I do not even HAVE locks) You can walk anywhere anytime and be safe. There has noit been a random homicide since 2006. Car jacking is unheard of. There were something like 11 robberies last year statewide.

It is the safest place in the US and much safer than Canada. Our population density (in case you wondered) is 7 times higher than Quebec's and our homicide rate is 1/3 of theirs

Edited August 2, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

How many states have gun laws similar to Vermont?

The answer to your question is above. How about mine?

What could be some reasons that Chicago has a higher homicide rate than Burlington? Burlington allows anyone to carry loaded guns, Chicago does not. What's the difference?

How could the difference be addressed by another gun law in Chicago?

Why would people in Chicago be unable to handle the responsibility of carrying loaded guns like people in Vermont can?

Why would Chicago NOT have a lower crime rate if they duplicated our gun laws?

[웃 910]

Well black people are poor. So maybe tax the guns so only white people can buy them?

I googled "how many black people live in vermont" and the first hit is a NY Times article from 1987

"Mr. Gabriel, Ms. Fobbs and Mr. Pierce are black, and they live in Vermont, which has the fewest blacks of any state in the country.

In a state where fewer than 1,200 of about 530,000 people are black, race relations are not a frequent topic of discussion or press coverage."

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/23/us/vermont-s-few-blacks-finding-special-problems.html

This was from 1987 so I'm sure the numbers have changed a little but...

[scandal 951]

It's not all about guns. From the OP:

The Chicago Police Department has more than 11,000 officers. Toronto has about 5,300.

In 1992 there were 940 murders in the city. 651 of those murders were committed with firearms. The department cleared 683 cases.

To wit:

- Chicago has far more murders than Toronto despite having double the number of cops.

- Chicago had more non-firearms murders in 1992 (940-651= 289) than Toronto has in total murders (70 or less). That is, 4 people were killed in Chicago by non-gun methods i 1992 (stabbing? Poison? Pushed off the roof?) for every single person killed in Toronto in their "year of the gun" 2005.

This is not just about guns.

It's about a culture of violence, apathetic public, ineffective law enforcement, and more. The root causes are linked to the education system, the penal system, generations of lost economic opportunities, street gangs and drugs.

Gun laws have an effect on the outcome, but a very modest one at best.

I lived in Toronto from 1991-1997. In fact, I lived in Rexdale for a part of that time. I live in the Chicago suburbs now. I think both cities are wonderful. And I know Toronto well enough to know that it has drugs, crime, poverty, homelessness, corrupt cops, and more. But for every Jane/Finch or Rexdale in Toronto or Englewood in Chicago, there is far more investment in community policing, halfway-homes, rehab centers, mental health clinics and after school programs in Toronto than there is in Chicago. Over time, those services make the difference. That's my belief at any rate, as a citizen/observer in both communities.

[^_^ 5,021]

This is not just about guns.

It's about a culture of violence, apathetic public, ineffective law enforcement, and more. The root causes are linked to the education system, the penal system, generations of lost economic opportunities, street gangs and drugs.

Gun laws have an effect on the outcome, but a very modest one at best.

I lived in Toronto from 1991-1997. In fact, I lived in Rexdale for a part of that time. I live in the Chicago suburbs now. I think both cities are wonderful. And I know Toronto well enough to know that it has drugs, crime, poverty, homelessness, corrupt cops, and more. But for every Jane/Finch or Rexdale in Toronto or Englewood in Chicago, there is far more investment in community policing, halfway-homes, rehab centers, mental health clinics and after school programs in Toronto than there is in Chicago. Over time, those services make the difference. That's my belief at any rate, as a citizen/observer in both communities.

You could have saved us all a lot of time if you just said you're a socialist.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If you moved the population of Detroit into Vermont you'd quickly have the highest murder rate in the country.

What is wrong with the population of Detroit?

It's not all about guns. From the OP:

To wit:

- Chicago has far more murders than Toronto despite having double the number of cops.

- Chicago had more non-firearms murders in 1992 (940-651= 289) than Toronto has in total murders (70 or less). That is, 4 people were killed in Chicago by non-gun methods i 1992 (stabbing? Poison? Pushed off the roof?) for every single person killed in Toronto in their "year of the gun" 2005.

This is not just about guns.

It's about a culture of violence, apathetic public, ineffective law enforcement, and more. The root causes are linked to the education system, the penal system, generations of lost economic opportunities, street gangs and drugs.

Gun laws have an effect on the outcome, but a very modest one at best.

I lived in Toronto from 1991-1997. In fact, I lived in Rexdale for a part of that time. I live in the Chicago suburbs now. I think both cities are wonderful. And I know Toronto well enough to know that it has drugs, crime, poverty, homelessness, corrupt cops, and more. But for every Jane/Finch or Rexdale in Toronto or Englewood in Chicago, there is far more investment in community policing, halfway-homes, rehab centers, mental health clinics and after school programs in Toronto than there is in Chicago. Over time, those services make the difference. That's my belief at any rate, as a citizen/observer in both communities.

Right, it is not about guns, so why are they mentioned in the title?

Well black people are poor. So maybe tax the guns so only white people can buy them?

You should stick to responding with cartoons.

[웃 910]

What is wrong with the population of Detroit?

Lets just put it like this. Around the time I was 16 years old and got my car I decided that we'd go to the weed spot in Detroit (pretty much every block but there was a particular spot that my friends knew about). They were black and went down there many times.

So we get off the freeway and drive a couple miles. We turn into the subdivision (hood). It was summer.

The houses are run down and a lot of activity is going on. People are on their porches, walking pit bulls, cars going much faster than the recommended speed limit, sound systems blaring.

There is a run down school in the neighborhood. There are 3 guys standing by one of the side doors. They have 40oz. with paper lunch bags around them. They are shooting dice on the cement by the side door with dollars all over the floor.

It was a scene straight out of the movies and I was in a complete culture shock.