How to stop fraud in Fiance/Spouse Visas

[Fandango 1,439]

Well, that's why I am suggesting a year of co-habitation to be allowed prior to marriage. I can imagine there are con artists good enough to pretend for 1 year + time to approve the AOS, but those must be rare...

and the other prevalent type of fraud has nothing to do with chain immigration, so 10+ years for petitioning someone else is not going to help those cases. Besides, when someone who gained GC visa marriage to USC divorces and brings another spouse from their country of origin, they get super scrutinized by USCIS, don't they?

Edited to add: ability to work is a must if fiance comes for a year, but the right to work would be terminated after one year if there is no marriage.

Couldn't disagree more with your stance. If you want to bring someone over, you must be willing to be accountable for that person. What's cohabitation going to do? Allow the person to stay for a whole year?

We've all seen it a thousand times....couple with red flags and the USC is screaming bloody murder that the gov't is 'STANDING IN THE WAY OF MY RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS!' then when the scam comes to light, they mistakenly believe it's the gov'ts job to deport their spouse asap.

How to stop fraud? Not gonna happen. Until people stop being so pie-in-the-sky and removing the rose colored glasses, until they understand their SO's country and societal norms, and until they stop really scrutinizing the red flags.

So yeah, it's like salmon swimming upstream.

[Ebunoluwa 6,136]

Very on point.

I see your point. A bit of 'checks and balances'.

I need VJ 101 how to correctly quote a post....lol.

[Ebunoluwa 6,136]

Why would anyone agree with COs returning a petition on a gut feeling after meeting for 5 min.with the beneficiary ? After refusing to look at 15# of evidence, having asked for it ? This happens all the time with or without so called flags at certain posts. Clearly it was not said to the one who considers himself to be in a genuine relationship who sailed through an easy country with the bare minimum.

Such smooth flow of words would not come from your mouth if it was you who went through hell and back with singed hair still smoking from the heat....if it was you whose petition was returned due to a gut feeling but knowing your relationship was bona fide .The government couldn't possibly have it wrong right? Nothing could ever be broken if it works for you right?

It is so amusing to me to have someone respond and say....it was not hot...I never felt the heat in my igloo, therefore no heat exists. How can anyone not having gone through what some experience just poo poo it away by saying oh well, if the CO reacted on a gut feeling then it must have been fraud, the petitioner just doesn't see it yet. How absurd. Has it ever ocurred to them that genuine couples truly suffer because of gut reactive biased INCORRECT "feelings" ? By making statements like that you are adding insult to trauma in your pious walk on easy street. Yes, easy street, walk a mile in the shoes of those genuine couples who suffer from returned petitions without factual evidence of fraud and then lets talk.

One can talk from theory and the other from a place of experience, or one can simply have a sense for equality and stand for the right thing to do based on facts. Gut feelings are an epic fail....you don't want a blanket fix but have no problem with guts misaligned ? Alrighty then. SMH.

[LoveNigarmostyle 164]

Why would anyone agree with COs returning a petition on a gut feeling after meeting for 5 min.with the beneficiary ? After refusing to look at 15# of evidence, having asked for it ? This happens all the time with or without so called flags at certain posts. Clearly it was not said to the one who considers himself to be in a genuine relationship who sailed through an easy country with the bare minimum.

Such smooth flow of words would not come from your mouth if it was you who went through hell and back with singed hair still smoking from the heat....if it was you whose petition was returned due to a gut feeling but knowing your relationship was bona fide .The government couldn't possibly have it wrong right? Nothing could ever be broken if it works for you right?

It is so amusing to me to have someone respond and say....it was not hot...I never felt the heat in my igloo, therefore no heat exists. How can anyone not having gone through what some experience just poo poo it away by saying oh well, if the CO reacted on a gut feeling then it must have been fraud, the petitioner just doesn't see it yet. How absurd. Has it ever ocurred to them that genuine couples truly suffer because of gut reactive biased INCORRECT "feelings" ? By making statements like that you are adding insult to trauma in your pious walk on easy street. Yes, easy street, walk a mile in the shoes of those genuine couples who suffer from returned petitions without factual evidence of fraud and then lets talk.

One can talk from theory and the other from a place of experience, or one can simply have a sense for equality and stand for the right thing to do based on facts. Gut feelings are an epic fail....you don't want a blanket fix but have no problem with guts misaligned ? Alrighty then. SMH.

Some of understand your point well enough trust me!

[rika60607 215]

May be you are right.

To me, you only get to know your partner after you live together for an extended period of time in the environment that you would normally be living. But that's me.

Seeing how at least half the marriages of K-1ers (who met once or twice for a week or three in total and then got married) do work out just fine... I might be an exceptionally bad judge of character.

Then again, fraud is a whole different story from making a good match with one's spouse, and as someone noticed, once fraudster is in the US they will remain in the US even if illegal... so true, cohabitation does not matter.

So, would you suggest all USCs be required to sign a document at the visa approval time to state that they understand that marriage may not work, that the immigrant may be scamming them and that they still are willing to assume full responsibility... or else no visa?

Couldn't disagree more with your stance. If you want to bring someone over, you must be willing to be accountable for that person. What's cohabitation going to do? Allow the person to stay for a whole year?

We've all seen it a thousand times....couple with red flags and the USC is screaming bloody murder that the gov't is 'STANDING IN THE WAY OF MY RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS!' then when the scam comes to light, they mistakenly believe it's the gov'ts job to deport their spouse asap.

How to stop fraud? Not gonna happen. Until people stop being so pie-in-the-sky and removing the rose colored glasses, until they understand their SO's country and societal norms, and until they stop really scrutinizing the red flags.

So yeah, it's like salmon swimming upstream.

[rin and john 71]

You used the lottery as an example of how visas could be processed by the local embassy faster instead of the mainland USCIS.. The fact that the type of fraud being investigated by USCIS K-1/IR-1 applicants is not done for DV lottery visas (and there is not a USC to investigate) makes your comparison incorrect.

Your whole premise is based on shifting the work from centralized processing to individual embassy processing. This only takes less time if more resources are devoted and more money is spent.The same could be done more efficiently by adding people to the mainland USCIS sites (and paying for it by removing USCIS people from local embassies).

Again, most pre-entry fraud is caught (if at all) at the State Department point in processing, not by the USCIS. The USCIS is more likely to catch fraud post-entry during AOS interview/processing. For K visas, the USCIS primarily checks validity of the petition (met in past two years, free to marry, etc) and criminal background check. Eliminate the first petition process with USCIS, shift it to the Embassy. Faster processing times for the K visas and for AOS as it frees resources at USCIS.

With regard to workload, see the attached:

http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY10AnnualReport-TableI.pdf

The State Dept issued 6,422,751 visas in 2010. Of these 215,947 were immediate relatives (some of which would have been DCF and handled at the embassy level without stateside USCIS resources). Even if K1s are in the non-immigrant list, the percent of fiance/spouse visas issued at by the State Dept with USCIS pre-screening is less than 10% of all visas issued by consulates. Not a significant change in workload at the embassy since even of this 10% the State Dept is already doing some of the work. It would actually become more efficient as your application has one stop, the embassy. It currently goes through three stops (USCIS, NVC, Embassy). How do you get that as centralized processing?

For the roughly six million visas the State Dept approved for visitors to the USA without USCIS vetting until they arrive at an immigration checkpoint, how many of them are turned away at the border? How many end up staying in the country beyond their approved visa limit? How many enter a sham marriage after they enter the USA just to get a green card?

Yes, fraud exists in the fiance/spouse visa arena, but the current process "tries to keep the flies out by caulking the crack in the window while the door is open".

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Why would anyone agree with COs returning a petition on a gut feeling after meeting for 5 min.with the beneficiary ? After refusing to look at 15# of evidence, having asked for it ? This happens all the time with or without so called flags at certain posts. Clearly it was not said to the one who considers himself to be in a genuine relationship who sailed through an easy country with the bare minimum.

Such smooth flow of words would not come from your mouth if it was you who went through hell and back with singed hair still smoking from the heat....if it was you whose petition was returned due to a gut feeling but knowing your relationship was bona fide .The government couldn't possibly have it wrong right? Nothing could ever be broken if it works for you right?

It is so amusing to me to have someone respond and say....it was not hot...I never felt the heat in my igloo, therefore no heat exists. How can anyone not having gone through what some experience just poo poo it away by saying oh well, if the CO reacted on a gut feeling then it must have been fraud, the petitioner just doesn't see it yet. How absurd. Has it ever ocurred to them that genuine couples truly suffer because of gut reactive biased INCORRECT "feelings" ? By making statements like that you are adding insult to trauma in your pious walk on easy street. Yes, easy street, walk a mile in the shoes of those genuine couples who suffer from returned petitions without factual evidence of fraud and then lets talk.

One can talk from theory and the other from a place of experience, or one can simply have a sense for equality and stand for the right thing to do based on facts. Gut feelings are an epic fail....you don't want a blanket fix but have no problem with guts misaligned ? Alrighty then. SMH.

I agree that there should be more factors to denying a case than a "gut feeling" but there are some cases when that feeling could have saved the SO time and money.

You can't put a timeline on love, we've seen people talking for years and they fall apart as soon as the ink dries on the marriage license, and some who meet and marry after 2 weeks and stay together for a lifetime. And I agree with the people on here who say you can't stop fraud, if they want in they will get here by hook or crook. All you can do is make the process fair and try your best to reunite those couples that are genuine and stop the ones who come over to commit fraud. Here are some things that they could look for to help:

1. Age difference: Ok, I know we have some people on here that say age ain't nothing but a number and I think you should have a right to love anyone that loves you, but c'mon. If you are with someone thats young enough to be your son/daughter or grandbaby you should rethink that one. The PT might have money and stability(I'm talking to you Hugh Hefner) but it will raise an eyebrow when you go for the interview and the PT is 60 and the BE is 22 and it should.

2. Time: This is tricky because of what I said earlier but prepare to get under the microscope if you are getting married before the 6 month mark and your entire relationship was over email/phone.

All in all, it comes down to just doing the best you can at your job as a CO, I think it's a horrible thing when loving couples get denied based on non factual bull and off the wall accusations.

[pushbrk 12,881]

Did I say DV lottery had fraud involved? Nope, you jumped to that conclusion all on your lonesome. My point was the State Department can process immigrant visas without input from USCIS. The entire system could be changed to facilitate this with virtually no change in the amount of fraudulent entry into the USA.

And before you leap to another conclusion, I did not say State Department processing would eliminate fraud, only that there would be virtually no change in the amount of fraud.

No, I didn't jump to any conclusions. I mentioned the lack of fraud to demonstrate that the processes for issuing DV visas and petition based family visas is apples and lettuce, meaning NOT comparable. So, to say that Consulates handling one, means they can handle the other just fine is an apples to lettuce comparison. My point is that not only did you not SAY there was fraud in the DV issue process, you failed to consider the difference in processing visas with and visas without fraud issues. This discussion is about how to prevent fraud in family cases. Processing them like DV cases will do NOTHING to prevent fraud.

[rin and john 71]

No, I didn't jump to any conclusions. I mentioned the lack of fraud to demonstrate that the processes for issuing DV visas and petition based family visas is apples and lettuce, meaning NOT comparable. So, to say that Consulates handling one, means they can handle the other just fine is an apples to lettuce comparison. My point is that not only did you not SAY there was fraud in the DV issue process, you failed to consider the difference in processing visas with and visas without fraud issues. This discussion is about how to prevent fraud in family cases. Processing them like DV cases will do NOTHING to prevent fraud.

And all along I have not been addressing reducing fraud. The OP asked. "What are your ideas to make this process easier and more streamlined as well as protecting the real relationships & stopping the fakes." I am simply addressing the steamlining while not significantly changing real relationship protection and fraud. You chose to apply the fraud topic to my post. By simply applying the "streamlining" topic to my post (and my subsequent posts) the other visa types mentioned are relevant.

Until I see concrete data that we have a significant fraud problem with K visas (versus the fraud/illegal problems on other visas, VWP, EWI) I see no reason to address the K visa fraud issue in the manner the USA does (requiring USCIS approval prior to State Dept approval).

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Why would anyone agree with COs returning a petition on a gut feeling after meeting for 5 min.with the beneficiary ? After refusing to look at 15# of evidence, having asked for it ? This happens all the time with or without so called flags at certain posts. Clearly it was not said to the one who considers himself to be in a genuine relationship who sailed through an easy country with the bare minimum.

Such smooth flow of words would not come from your mouth if it was you who went through hell and back with singed hair still smoking from the heat....if it was you whose petition was returned due to a gut feeling but knowing your relationship was bona fide .The government couldn't possibly have it wrong right? Nothing could ever be broken if it works for you right?

It is so amusing to me to have someone respond and say....it was not hot...I never felt the heat in my igloo, therefore no heat exists. How can anyone not having gone through what some experience just poo poo it away by saying oh well, if the CO reacted on a gut feeling then it must have been fraud, the petitioner just doesn't see it yet. How absurd. Has it ever ocurred to them that genuine couples truly suffer because of gut reactive biased INCORRECT "feelings" ? By making statements like that you are adding insult to trauma in your pious walk on easy street. Yes, easy street, walk a mile in the shoes of those genuine couples who suffer from returned petitions without factual evidence of fraud and then lets talk.

One can talk from theory and the other from a place of experience, or one can simply have a sense for equality and stand for the right thing to do based on facts. Gut feelings are an epic fail....you don't want a blanket fix but have no problem with guts misaligned ? Alrighty then. SMH.

You feel like you are a victim of the CO making an incorrect gut decision. I would feel the same if I was in your place. A lot of other people feel the same way as evidenced from the "+" button presses you receive. If we take five of you that are very upset and feel victimized because your loved one is suspected of fraud.... four of you are wrong... Four of five of you are actually being saved from a lot of future trouble. I do not know which four - All five of you are equally confident that your relationship is legit and are justifiably upset - all five of you have a mountain of evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is legit - yet four of you are totally wrong.

Maybe there is a compromise here: What if those people where the CO suspected something was amiss were the ones given the option of a lie detector test - on the spot (no chance to prepare) - and only for those borderline cases where the CO would deny the visa but has no iron-clad evidence as to why (the "gut feeling" cases)... The goal being to find that one out of five or one out of ten (I do not know the actual numbers obviously) that have been incorrectly identified as fraud...

Would that satisfy you? If there was a lie detector test given on the spot and your guy/girl failed would you still want the mountain of evidence to supersede or would you accept the test results?

Edited August 10, 2011 by OnMyWayID

[sachinky 465]

We've all seen it a thousand times....couple with red flags and the USC is screaming bloody murder that the gov't is 'STANDING IN THE WAY OF MY RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS!' then when the scam comes to light, they mistakenly believe it's the gov'ts job to deport their spouse asap.

How to stop fraud? Not gonna happen. Until people stop being so pie-in-the-sky and removing the rose colored glasses, until they understand their SO's country and societal norms...

+1000. The former especially drives me batty.

Edited August 10, 2011 by sachinky

[Drogs 24]

rika60607, Hmmmn, 12 months cohabitation before marriage, So USCIS Must deny visas to all those that their religion prohibits that kind of behaviour. i can see USCIS really proposing those rules.

Fraud whether it be marriage or any other kind of fraudulent activity is never going away, its a way of life. part of society, always has been always will be.

Marriages fail, some due to fraud others due to incompatability or other such reasons, spouses sometimes get angry and shout fraud, purely because of the anger and upset that a marriage has ended. people here in the USA and all over the world marry their own kind and Yes they divorce just as quickly, not because of fraud but other reasons.

Yes there are also fraudulent marriages between two citizens of the same country.

We are Human, its what makes us so very different than any other way of life on this planet.

[jenkatx 52]

For those who have not, please read the article that Rika60607 posted earlier. I think there are some very valid ideas here. What do you all think of his propsals?

http://www.cis.org/marriagefraud

Also, the article was written by a CO and has some very interesting stories in it.

[jenkatx 52]

What if the embassy's had a weighted formula they were required to use? For example the cultural norm would count for 10%, CO instinct 5%, evidence 45%, etc... The formula could be tailored for each individual embassy and the CO would be required to give the interviewee the report so that they know the result immediately. Just a thought.

[milimelo 4,477]

I think the whole DVL needs to be done away with. We should use those visas for family based.

Disagree - winners of DV lottery in majority cases do not have any immediate family in the US and DV is their only way to get in. They have to prove appropriate education levels before they are issued the visa, and often times have more than the highschool education required. Not the case with the family based visas.