How to stop fraud in Fiance/Spouse Visas

[pushbrk 12,884]

Almost 25% of LPRs from Nigeria the past several years are from the Diversity Visa lottery. Conducted by the State Department without USCIS involvement. Would assume most are done in Lagos, although some would be Nigerians already in the USA which would go through a local USCIS office.

Did it happen to occur to you that the only kind of fraud one could be concerned with in DV case is identity fraud. It's apples and lettuce. We're discussing how to best identify which people are scamming the system by entering into fraudulent relationships. What would be the test on a DV?

An analogy is that you pass a couple tests to get a driving license but you only need identification to have a drinking license. DV is a lottery. You win the lottery and show identification. Eligibility for a spouse visa or fiancee visa is about a whole lot more then checking ID and printing a visa.

[jenkatx 52]

DV lottery is initially processed in Kentucky which acts like NVC and then processed at the consulate. They collect fees from the entire family group and then interview the winner to determine if they are qualified. So after collecting thousands of dollars from people where the average income is about 1300 they deny aboiut 40% of those people for not being educationally qualified. I have seen the despondant families leaving their interview. They have borrowed money to pay the fees and now aer left with a lifetime of debt.

I think the whole DVL needs to be done away with. We should use those visas for family based.

[pushbrk 12,884]

I think the whole DVL needs to be done away with. We should use those visas for family based.

Do you think there's some kind of quota on visas for immediate relatives of US Citizens? There isn't. Are you worried about the trees killed to make the paper for the visa? I don't get it.

[SimranS 9]

Do you think there's some kind of quota on visas for immediate relatives of US Citizens? There isn't. Are you worried about the trees killed to make the paper for the visa? I don't get it.

What about the spouses and kids of LPRs who have to spend years separated from each other due to the quota system?

[sachinky 465]

LPRs are NOT citizens and as such ARE subject to quotas. I do not agree with that seeing H1s and F1s can bring in their dependents whereas LPRs cannot. I think there should be a way where they can bring their spouses/kids over with some restrictions similar to F2 status. But I digress, that has nothing to do with fraud.

[jenkatx 52]

Do you think there's some kind of quota on visas for immediate relatives of US Citizens? There isn't. Are you worried about the trees killed to make the paper for the visa? I don't get it.

I am referring to the wait for LPR family members. However, I think they need to be limited to spouse, children, and possibly parents. Eliminating the DVL would help clear that backlog, as would rolling the visas that are unused in certain countries to the countries that need them.

[pushbrk 12,884]

I am referring to the wait for LPR family members. However, I think they need to be limited to spouse, children, and possibly parents. Eliminating the DVL would help clear that backlog, as would rolling the visas that are unused in certain countries to the countries that need them.

What makes you think there's any connection between the quotas? There isn't. Reducing or doing away with the DVL will not impact the quotas for other family visa categories.

[jenkatx 52]

What makes you think there's any connection between the quotas? There isn't. Reducing or doing away with the DVL will not impact the quotas for other family visa categories.

This was one of the recommendations of the Duke think tank. I believe it was included in SB1362(if I remember the number correctly). The proposal is to use those visas numbers to clear that backlog as I said. In theory the DVL is a great idea, however when we have so many families separated it just doesn't make sense. Since the bottom line is on numbers we have to find somewhere to get more visas and the DVL is the most sensible place to start IMO. However, as someone else stated, we digress. Maybe we could open that topic on a new thread.

[sachinky 465]

Meh, I don't know how I feel about the lie detector. I am not a liar nor a criminal nor do I wish to be treated as one. Also, don't quote me on this but I believe lie detectors are not 100% accurate and therefore, are not admissible in court cases. If this information is incorrect, then I am sure someone will correct me.

This is just my opinion. The plain fact of the matter is that there is more fraud coming out of Nigeria and Morocco than Canada and Australia. Not saying that every marriage with a Canadian or an Australian is successful but I have not seen the USC petitioners coming on here and screaming fraud. It was simply a case of the marriage not working out. Which is very different when you check the 'effects of major changes' forum with the posts from some of the other high-fraud consulates.

I think the COs are thoroughly trained and well equipped to do their jobs and that they do do a good job. Especially when dealing with the level and amount of fraud that some Embassies in particular are confronted with. I have been in a US Embassy four times to date and have always been treated well and as such have no complaints. (I do wish the process was faster with less hoops to jump through, if I were to make any complaints but then again, doesn't every one?) The COs however are not perfect and I am sure no one has a 100% track-record. It is likely that a few fraud cases get through and on the flip side, a few legitimate couples do get denied or are harassed and yes, that is to be regretted. Frankly, though, most of the cases that I read about here on VJ that do get denied seem suspicious and if I were a CO I too, in all likelihood, would deny those.

If you take away the "gut-feeling" or in some cases, obvious reality, such as dealing with a 20 year old hot Egyptian married to a not-so-hot 55 year old American lady with two prior divorces and four kids after a one-month online courtship (not to belabor the point), you might as well have a machine who makes sure that all bubbles are thoroughly filled in. Met in person? Check. Four pictures? Check. Two pages of chat transcripts? Check. Undying declaration of love? Check.

Hokay! Visa approved.

I do agree with Pushbrk when he says that many of the US Citizens who are convinced that their spouse or fiance's visas were denied unjustifiably are simply wrong. They were either being used or scammed and just didn't know it and or they may never accept that hard cold fact of reality. Like it or not, the Canadian Embassy is not the same as the one in Lagos and I don't think applying blanket policies is going to help root out fraud. I am not sure what the answer is but making Canadians pay just because there is more fraud coming out of Nigeria doesn't seem fair or equitable to me.

Edited August 9, 2011 by sachinky

[jenkatx 52]

After reading more on lie detectors it seems that they are not an option we would want to include. Proponents say that they are 99% accurate while some believe the accuracy is much lower. 1 in 100 denied due to a faulty test is not acceptable. I think the denial rate of legit couples is much lower then that so we would really be shooting ourselves in the foot.

[rin and john 71]

Did it happen to occur to you that the only kind of fraud one could be concerned with in DV case is identity fraud. It's apples and lettuce. We're discussing how to best identify which people are scamming the system by entering into fraudulent relationships. What would be the test on a DV?

An analogy is that you pass a couple tests to get a driving license but you only need identification to have a drinking license. DV is a lottery. You win the lottery and show identification. Eligibility for a spouse visa or fiancee visa is about a whole lot more then checking ID and printing a visa.

Did I say DV lottery had fraud involved? Nope, you jumped to that conclusion all on your lonesome. My point was the State Department can process immigrant visas without input from USCIS. The entire system could be changed to facilitate this with virtually no change in the amount of fraudulent entry into the USA.

And before you leap to another conclusion, I did not say State Department processing would eliminate fraud, only that there would be virtually no change in the amount of fraud.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

After reading more on lie detectors it seems that they are not an option we would want to include. Proponents say that they are 99% accurate while some believe the accuracy is much lower. 1 in 100 denied due to a faulty test is not acceptable. I think the denial rate of legit couples is much lower then that so we would really be shooting ourselves in the foot.

There was an interesting BS show on lie detectors.. There are ways to beat them (such as clenching to affect blood flow) but what I found more interesting is that they are heavily used as a tactic after the fact.. Lets say I administer a lie detector test to you and afterwards I am looking at the results.. A long paper full of lines made by needles with little notes written at random intervals across the page and a couple of big question marks.. I am looking concerned and doubtful and studying various lines and making more notes.. I look at you and say "Hmm.. On question #12 you stated that you have not cheated on your spouse in the last year.. You also stated earlier that you are aware that knowingly lying results in a lifetime ban.. You understand that is correct? OK.. Do you want to clarify your response to number #12 or will you stand by that answer?"

This is what they do.. Lie detectors are as much a tool of intimidation to force the truth as they are a measure of a person truthfulness.. Fraudsters will read this and understand not to break... So they build their plan to commit fraud around beating the lie detector... There are genuine couples where these type of tactics will cause problems for otherwise well intentioned people. If the above scenario happened and the person was a fraudster it would not matter, these forums would be filled with screaming USCs crying of foul play and unfair treatment, etc, etc..

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

You are talking about lie dectectors of the last generation , the thermal ones are much more fool proof and aren't physically hooked up to the subject can clench all they want. And the false denials are running closer to 25% to 99 % is a vast improvement.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Did I say DV lottery had fraud involved? Nope, you jumped to that conclusion all on your lonesome. My point was the State Department can process immigrant visas without input from USCIS. The entire system could be changed to facilitate this with virtually no change in the amount of fraudulent entry into the USA.

And before you leap to another conclusion, I did not say State Department processing would eliminate fraud, only that there would be virtually no change in the amount of fraud.

You used the lottery as an example of how visas could be processed by the local embassy faster instead of the mainland USCIS.. The fact that the type of fraud being investigated by USCIS K-1/IR-1 applicants is not done for DV lottery visas (and there is not a USC to investigate) makes your comparison incorrect.

Your whole premise is based on shifting the work from centralized processing to individual embassy processing. This only takes less time if more resources are devoted and more money is spent.The same could be done more efficiently by adding people to the mainland USCIS sites (and paying for it by removing USCIS people from local embassies).

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

You are talking about lie detectors of the last generation , the thermal ones are much more fool proof and aren't physically hooked up to the subject can clench all they want. And the false denials are running closer to 25% to 99 % is a vast improvement.

The thermal lie detectors... just did a quick Google and found an article in science that says they have been measured "up to" 84% accurate in simulations.. I also typed in "beat thermal lie detectors"... lots of lists.. which includes thinking ahead what is being asked, treating it like a job interview, and most importantly handling the after-interview because they will hit you up on areas that the conclusion are muddy...

So again when they use those secondary tactics when they are not sure... and lets say they catch ooh.. maybe 25% are proved to be fraudsters.. Will that really keep the USCs from doing exactly what they do now when the person they are petitioning is denied?? It will not. They will be on here proclaiming that this is a case where the lie detector got it wrong, they know for sure the relationship is legit, that their guy/gal was bullied and pressured and that the system is not fair, they will want to know how to appeal, retake the test, call a congressman, etc, etc, etc.

...and when will that secondary interview hit hardest after the lie detector showed muddied results? When the CO has a "gut feeling".

Edited August 9, 2011 by OnMyWayID