My name came up in a conversation

[Golden Gate 530]

Lots of people make low-income work for them. Saving for what they need. Paying their bills. Cutting back on "luxuries". You want your cake and you wanna eat it too. You made your choices, and we made ours. Not everyone who is rich or middle class even got that way because their family was. Some of us worked hard to get where we are.

I worked hard for where I am as a teacher, and now I am laid off. So, you bet I will go get my medicaid for my children, until I can find further work. Life isn't always smooth sailing. Also, it's not easy to get independent insurance, if you have pre-existing conditions. You have to be part of a group plan. Many low paying jobs don't have that.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Golden Gate

[Ready to do it 101]

I could see how that could offend you. If it did, I apologize. You did flat out write that people asked you for help and you shunned them away. I don't know what I would call that type of person. Certainly not a good samaritan, thus the comment. If a friend asks me for help will I help him/her without judging? Absolutely. If an illegal (who I know) asks me for my help would I help him/her without judging? Absolutely. If a friend asks me to help someone he/she knows and knows that I can help or have the solution, will I help? Absolutely.

I appreciate the opportunity to donate my time and/or money to charities that I choose to help or people that I choose to help. I have no interest in writing a blank check to the government so they can do with it what they see fit.... which is exactly what so many poor people in this country not only want, they expect it and depend on it. The more the government helps, the more dependent people become and the more harm done to this country. Pretty soon it really might be 10% and then the other 90% and when the government goes belly up for trying to support so many for so long what you will have is complete poverty. The government would be better off waning people of the ####### that feeds them. 40-60% will move into the middle class, 20-30% will survive in the bottom class with little government assistance and then 10%-20% or so just might not make it. Bottom line, I'd prefer to see 10%-20% of the population in complete poverty with no way to survive than to see 70,80, or 90% in dumps... which is where we are headed with all these government assistance programs and wars that can't be paid for.

Here is the example YOU set & now condem. You didnt understand what I said yet responded with this. It would be against the TOS to advise anyone in how they could or should avoid following the laws.

"Well aren't you a good samaritan"

[Ning 619]

I could see how that could offend you. If it did, I apologize. You did flat out write that people asked you for help and you shunned them away. I don't know what I would call that type of person. Certainly not a good samaritan, thus the comment. If a friend asks me for help will I help him/her without judging? Absolutely. If an illegal (who I know) asks me for my help would I help him/her without judging? Absolutely. If a friend asks me to help someone he/she knows and knows that I can help or have the solution, will I help? Absolutely.

I appreciate the opportunity to donate my time and/or money to charities that I choose to help or people that I choose to help. I have no interest in writing a blank check to the government so they can do with it what they see fit.... which is exactly what so many poor people in this country not only want, they expect it and depend on it. The more the government helps, the more dependent people become and the more harm done to this country. Pretty soon it really might be 10% and then the other 90% and when the government goes belly up for trying to support so many for so long what you will have is complete poverty. The government would be better off waning people of the ####### that feeds them. 40-60% will move into the middle class, 20-30% will survive in the bottom class with little government assistance and then 10%-20% or so just might not make it. Bottom line, I'd prefer to see 10%-20% of the population in complete poverty with no way to survive than to see 70,80, or 90% in dumps... which is where we are headed with all these government assistance programs and wars that can't be paid for.

What ever I said didnt require a smart mouthed reply & you knew exactly what you were doing. The first sentence you wrote is in direct contrast to what you say you dont do. In reality I dont think what you have to say is all that interesting nor important.

I certianly did refuse to help them & dont have to meet your expectations in my actions. I am not trying to comply with your definition of a samaritan or Mother Teresa. If you help illegals you are assisting a fugitive. I assist them by suggesting they go home & use the legal methods to enter the USA.

You seem to appreciate some aspects of the USA to conduct yourself as the samaritan you resent while complaining about the same government that affords you those opportunities.

This country isnt perfect but there is a reason many of us that immigrated here feel its the best we could dream of & more than I thought I would be able to be part of.

[Nicoco 26]

I'm not sure what's going on, but to the original post, that makes me feel sad when stuff like happens because Ice and I are doing this the legal way. He could have stayed as an illegal f-1 student. But we're doing it the legal, moral, and longer way.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim-

Anyone, illegal or not (legal folks assuming they make under a certain amount), can walk into a hospital and get free health care. How do I know? I recently watched my ex-wife take one of her illegal friends who was injured. Not only did he get free health care, they required him to sign up for a zillion free government benefits.

Don't know what state you're in. In California, that "free" health care is provided in the emergency rooms of county hospitals. I've taken friends who didn't have insurance to the emergency rooms of three different county hospitals, including the world famous Harbor UCLA hospital in Southern California. The waiting room is massive - big enough for two full-size basketball courts, and it's filled with uninsured people, mostly indigents. I watched people die waiting to be treated.

Surely, you don't honestly believe that people come to the US for this sort of health care, do you?

Regarding your second point, "If you remove all social safety nets..." Exactly!!! That is exactly what the US needs to do to accomplish a few things, 1) Get many illegals to leave on their own, 2) Stop the flow of illegal aliens from coming (as they'll get word that it's not some Disneyworld up here), and 3) Create a middle class again. How will this create a middle class? It will force legal USC and permanent residents to get off their butt and work, educate themselves, and provide for themselves. Some will and some won't. Those that will eventually will make the middle class, those that don't... well it's their problem. Somewhere along the line people came up with this idea that the taxes of the rich are supposed to go to the government in the form of a blank check so the government can than supply free services to the poor. It's ludicrous. Tax money should be used on goods or services that provide for or benefit everyone such as schools, roads, infrastructure, etc. Any money spent by the US government on an individual is simply wrong. I.e. Food stamps, medicaid. Benefits should only be paid for something that benefits everyone. It does not benefit me if you get food stamps. It does not benefit you if I get medicaid. By not having a system of equality and treating some better than others they are simply handouts for people as a reward for not working or not being responsible enough to have health insurance, etc. While I do agree with squeakys point that health insurance companies aren't just all of the sudden going to lower premiums if free health care is done away with, I will state that premiums never would have gotten so high if there was no such thing as medicaid and free rides in the first place. Squeaky has stated that she is not college educated and is a socialist so I understand her arguement, but this isn't a socialist country. She thinks capitalism is what doomed this country. I tend to believe that you are pretty well educated. Are you going to tell me that you are not a Capitalist as well?

On some of these points I agree. There are some services available to illegal aliens that should not be. Public schools, for example. Some states also provide medicaid to pregnant women regardless of their immigration status, and I also believe that's wrong. I believe everyone should be able to get urgent care when it's needed, but then put them on a bus and send them back home.

The rest of your points I mostly disagree with. I paid for all of those "safety net" social programs, and I expect them to be available to me in the event I am unfortunate enough to need them. I don't like to see those systems abused any more than you do, but I absolutely don't want them eliminated because of the abuse. I would much rather see the abuse eliminated. If the programs are eliminated entirely it will create an entire subclass of desperately poor. The illegals will certainly leave if they have no hope of climbing out of the poverty class, but there will be millions of American citizens remaining in that class. Maybe Canada will have to guard their southern border to keep America's poor out. The day that happens America will officially be a third world country.

The concept that the government should provide for everyone individually is socialism, which I am very much opposed to - it puts a massive tax burden on those who work. Socialism seems like a great idea to people who are young and naive and near the bottom of the economic ladder, and they see people at the top of the ladder and they think it's unfair. They don't realize that many (most) of those people worked hard to get to the top, and that they have an equal opportunity to get there. Socialism also seems like a great idea to people who have had wealth bestowed upon them without having to work long and hard to get it, like Hollywood and sports elite. To them, the sense of unfairness stems mostly from guilt. Someone who works hard to achieve wealth will not feel guilty at all for having earned what they've gotten.

The concept that the government should provide only what benefits the entire society is communism, which I am also very much opposed to - everyone is equally poor and hopeless. Even the communist countries that exist have come to the realization that a communist economic system doesn't work. China, for example, has a communist system of government, but their economic system is much closer to capitalism.

I was young and naive once. Now that I'm older and wiser I admire and respect those who have earned a position at the top, and I'm more determined than ever to work my way up as high as my abilities will take me.

I also strongly object to the statement that capitalism destroyed this country. This country became a great nation because of capitalism - the promise that anyone with a good head on their shoulders who was willing to work could achieve prosperity. That is the proverbial "American Dream".

[KittyPollitt 284]

Lots of people make low-income work for them. Saving for what they need. Paying their bills. Cutting back on "luxuries". You want your cake and you wanna eat it too. You made your choices, and we made ours. Not everyone who is rich or middle class even got that way because their family was. Some of us worked hard to get where we are.

I want my cake and wanna eat it too? Sorry, in my house, cake IS a "luxury". Majority of upper middle class and middle class have credit card debt, car notes, house notes- EVERYTHING I have is paid for, with cash. And my job DOES offer health insurance. It's the crappiest plan on the face of the Earth, for a ridiculous amount of money. I actually COULD afford it, but the State sponsored healthcare that I am eligible for has better coverage than what my employer offers.

Sorry man, I don't buy going into credit debt to make it into the "middle class". I prefer to pay cash for what I need, and I don't think I'm milking the system by CHOOSING to get the best health coverage that is available to my family, and myself, who supports my family alone.

[KayDeeCee 4,896]

Let's play devil's advocate. Why is it the government's problem or tax payers problem if you can't afford health insurance.

10% of the US population pay 80%+ of the taxes in this country. I'm not going to say that the other 90% of the population's taxes are meaningless in the whole scheme of things, but for the most part it's just not much.

Actually, the top 10% pay about 70%, and the top 50%, those earning at least $32,879, paid 97% of federal taxes. I would not label it 'not much'.

That is the whole problem. People not only relying, but expecting the US government (via taxpayers moeny) to bail out the poor.

You mean like the bail outs for Wall Street, banks, the car manufacturers? We should also not forget those giant corporations that do not pay their fair share, using loopholes, asking for special exemptions, etc., and those that paid zero taxes and even got money back instead of paying. GE, Bank of America, BP, and so on. I am sure the money is much better spent on the rich corporations instead of those that might happen upon a time they need health care or will die.

If all social programs were ended you'd be surprised not only how many illegal immigrants would go back to thier countries, but also you'd see a significant decrease in border crossings.

My husband is from Mexico, and had never been to the US before he came here to marry me. His mother is a doctor, and he very much misses health care in his country. He is not fond of the current US system at all. Illegals are definitely not flooding into the US from Mexico to get our wonderful free health care. You must be joking. They have health care in their third world nation. I do not have health insurance. I also dislike that you are assuming I must be milking the system because of this. I do not get any free health care. I pay out of pocket for all my doctor visits, lab work, and medications. In the long run, it is cheaper that way than paying sky high insurance premiums each month, even when I have to save for a few months to get the tests done that I need. I am all for a change in the system too. Not in the same way you are wanting change. I want real, true health care reform in this country to happen already. I am not going to hold my breath for it though. The giant pharma corps pay out a lot in lobbying for it to never happen.

[rika60607 215]

$400 a month is a nice assumption.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/090210nr.cfm

$4K a year is what an average worker pays for work sponsored family health insurance premiums, with a full price of $14K a year ($10K on average is covered by the employer). Add to that deductibles and co-pays. For reference, median household income in the US is about 50K (in 2010).

If someone refers to their plan as crappy rather than average, it probably means that it costs more than 20% of their household income... IMHO, too much.

that's where you are wrong, and that is what needs to be closed off. Assume your health insurance your company offers costs $400/month. That's $4800/yr.

[Blob18 111]

I want my cake and wanna eat it too? Sorry, in my house, cake IS a "luxury". Majority of upper middle class and middle class have credit card debt, car notes, house notes- EVERYTHING I have is paid for, with cash. And my job DOES offer health insurance. It's the crappiest plan on the face of the Earth, for a ridiculous amount of money. I actually COULD afford it, but the State sponsored healthcare that I am eligible for has better coverage than what my employer offers.

Sorry man, I don't buy going into credit debt to make it into the "middle class". I prefer to pay cash for what I need, and I don't think I'm milking the system by CHOOSING to get the best health coverage that is available to my family, and myself, who supports my family alone.

Why would you go into credit card debt? Only spend what you have. It's called 'Being responsible'. It isn't very hard to do.

Your views on the middle class are severely flawed and your attitude matches your views. Pretty pathetic.

Stop blaming other's for your situation and look in the mirror. It isn't your parents fault or anyone elses in that you couldn't go to college or get a better job/s.

[Ready to do it 101]

Jay-Kay

I actually agree with a lot of what you have said.

1) Not nearly as many illegals are coming to the US as before... true

2) The health care in the US and the costs associated with them suck, especially when compared to other countries (including 3rd world countries)... true

3) The topic at hand had nothing to do with bailouts of these giant corporations. While they may seem unfair, some of them were necessary to keep the country running. I.e. If the Fed would have let a big bank or Fannie go under... problems for everyone. I am not against bailing out companies, paying for infrastructure etc that help everyone in the long run. I am against singling out individual people and giving those people a free ride... or a much easier ride.

4) I am not against a healthcare overhaul that somehow funds free healthcare for all. My assumption is healthcare would probably suffer severely in the short term, but in the long term it's really not something against. The point is it will be free healthcare for "all," not just the poor. Now if the rich want to go pay for better healthcare direct with a doctor or hospital, so be it. At least they will have that choice. I am against providing the poor any services or goods that are not provided to everyone. It doesn't mean everyone (the rich) have to accept the services. However, until we have free healthcare for all, we should have free healthcare for no one. Does that mean just let a USC die or their child die? No. It means treat them, and bill them and if they can't pay then it's crappy credit for life or bankruptcy for them.

Actually, the top 10% pay about 70%, and the top 50%, those earning at least $32,879, paid 97% of federal taxes. I would not label it 'not much'.

You mean like the bail outs for Wall Street, banks, the car manufacturers? We should also not forget those giant corporations that do not pay their fair share, using loopholes, asking for special exemptions, etc., and those that paid zero taxes and even got money back instead of paying. GE, Bank of America, BP, and so on. I am sure the money is much better spent on the rich corporations instead of those that might happen upon a time they need health care or will die.

My husband is from Mexico, and had never been to the US before he came here to marry me. His mother is a doctor, and he very much misses health care in his country. He is not fond of the current US system at all. Illegals are definitely not flooding into the US from Mexico to get our wonderful free health care. You must be joking. They have health care in their third world nation. I do not have health insurance. I also dislike that you are assuming I must be milking the system because of this. I do not get any free health care. I pay out of pocket for all my doctor visits, lab work, and medications. In the long run, it is cheaper that way than paying sky high insurance premiums each month, even when I have to save for a few months to get the tests done that I need. I am all for a change in the system too. Not in the same way you are wanting change. I want real, true health care reform in this country to happen already. I am not going to hold my breath for it though. The giant pharma corps pay out a lot in lobbying for it to never happen.

[KittyPollitt 284]

Why would you go into credit card debt? Only spend what you have. It's called 'Being responsible'. It isn't very hard to do.

Your views on the middle class are severely flawed and your attitude matches your views. Pretty pathetic.

Stop blaming other's for your situation and look in the mirror. It isn't your parents fault or anyone elses in that you couldn't go to college or get a better job/s.

I'm not blaming others for my situation. Frankly, you know nothing of my situation further than what I have said- and I won't discuss the ugly bits here. Suffice it to say that most people who have walked in my shoes are either dead, in prison, or TRULY milking the system by not working at all and collecting welfare. Considering the lifestyle I've had in the past, my situation is a damn good one.

I don't think my views on the middle class are flawed at all. Not when they're buying groceries with credit cards and are one missed paycheck away from foreclosure. I deliver food to the houses of the so called middle class- $300,000+ homes with manicured lawns and not a STICK of furniture in them. Watching my cousin with a master's from Johns Hopkins struggle for 2 years to find a job only to lose her home and have to move in with her parents, who are also being foreclosed. The high and mighty United States is falling apart, one middle class citizen at a time.

I look in the mirror and see someone who's doing the best I can with what I've got, not digging myself in deeper.

[Ban Hammer 13,651]

this thread is so far off the rails with personal attacks it is now closed for tos violations.

do not restart this thread.