My name came up in a conversation

[Ready to do it 101]

Let's play devil's advocate. Why is it the government's problem or tax payers problem if you can't afford health insurance.

10% of the US population pay 80%+ of the taxes in this country. I'm not going to say that the other 90% of the population's taxes are meaningless in the whole scheme of things, but for the most part it's just not much. My point of the amnesty, open borders and no social services for anyone is this. How many drug dealers, gang member thugs are there in the US from south of the border? 1,000,000? Those are the folks that don't need to be here. The majority of the other 29,000,000 folks are good people. Do some of these 29,000,000 people use social services and milk the system? Sure they do, but it's the government that lets them. It's not their fault that we have screwed up rules and laws allowing free health care for anyone, unemployment, food stamps, etc. Legal US citizens milk the system as well. The problem isn't an illegal immigration problem. The problem is providing these free services to anyone. Stating that one payes taxes so they deserve these services is hogwash. People get these services because of the taxes that the top 10% in this country pay. If social services were done away with and amnesty was granted to the 29,000,000 good illegal aliens those that are here to milk the system would go back. Many illegal aliens are good hard working folks. I'd rather my tax money go toward helping a good hard working illegal alien than a lazy US citizen. The truth is that anyone born and raised in the US has unlimited opportunities. You just have to go and get it. Illegal immigrants do, why can't US citizens? Scrapping all social services coupled with an amnesty solves so many issues. Many illegal immigrants would go back, many won't come, and without government handouts it would put real pressure on US citizens to produce or suffer the consequences. Do I think you deserve to die if you have a heart attack and no money? I don't wish ill will on anyone. However, if you are truly working hard at 2 jobs, and your jobs do not offer insurance and you cannot afford an insurance plan than that is on you. Why? Because you choose your jobs and professions. One thing is certain, it certainly should not be an entitlement that US citizens get all these social program handouts just because. SO back to my original question, "Why is it the government or tax payer's problems if one can't afford health insurance?" Please don't answer, "Because I'm a tax paying USC." There are way too many folks in this country that believe being a USC entitles them to free stuff yet think illegals shouldn't get the same free stuff. that is a horrible way to think. We are all human beings. The only thing that should determine who lives comfortably and who doesn't is "Who produces, who works hardest, and who works smartest." I'm not going to berate you, but if I really worked my butt off at two jobs and I couldn't afford insurance I would switch careers. Insurance premiums are outrageous because hospitals charge outrageous amounts because of all the people who think they are entitled to free care. Until the government does away with all the free social programs nothing will change.

What about all of the American citizens who work their butts off at low paying jobs and can't afford insurance? If someone like me, who works 2 jobs to make ends meet but can't afford outrageous insurance premiums has a heart attack- I should just DIE because I can't afford insurance!? Screw you, man.. That's all I can say.

[Ning 619]

Let's play devil's advocate. Why is it the government's problem or tax payers problem if you can't afford health insurance.

10% of the US population pay 80%+ of the taxes in this country. I'm not going to say that the other 90% of the population's taxes are meaningless in the whole scheme of things, but for the most part it's just not much. My point of the amnesty, open borders and no social services for anyone is this. How many drug dealers, gang member thugs are there in the US from south of the border? 1,000,000? Those are the folks that don't need to be here. The majority of the other 29,000,000 folks are good people. Do some of these 29,000,000 people use social services and milk the system? Sure they do, but it's the government that lets them. It's not their fault that we have screwed up rules and laws allowing free health care for anyone, unemployment, food stamps, etc. Legal US citizens milk the system as well. The problem isn't an illegal immigration problem. The problem is providing these free services to anyone. Stating that one payes taxes so they deserve these services is hogwash. People get these services because of the taxes that the top 10% in this country pay. If social services were done away with and amnesty was granted to the 29,000,000 good illegal aliens those that are here to milk the system would go back. Many illegal aliens are good hard working folks. I'd rather my tax money go toward helping a good hard working illegal alien than a lazy US citizen. The truth is that anyone born and raised in the US has unlimited opportunities. You just have to go and get it. Illegal immigrants do, why can't US citizens? Scrapping all social services coupled with an amnesty solves so many issues. Many illegal immigrants would go back, many won't come, and without government handouts it would put real pressure on US citizens to produce or suffer the consequences. Do I think you deserve to die if you have a heart attack and no money? I don't wish ill will on anyone. However, if you are truly working hard at 2 jobs, and your jobs do not offer insurance and you cannot afford an insurance plan than that is on you. Why? Because you choose your jobs and professions. One thing is certain, it certainly should not be an entitlement that US citizens get all these social program handouts just because. SO back to my original question, "Why is it the government or tax payer's problems if one can't afford health insurance?" Please don't answer, "Because I'm a tax paying USC." There are way too many folks in this country that believe being a USC entitles them to free stuff yet think illegals shouldn't get the same free stuff. that is a horrible way to think. We are all human beings. The only thing that should determine who lives comfortably and who doesn't is "Who produces, who works hardest, and who works smartest." I'm not going to berate you, but if I really worked my butt off at two jobs and I couldn't afford insurance I would switch careers. Insurance premiums are outrageous because hospitals charge outrageous amounts because of all the people who think they are entitled to free care. Until the government does away with all the free social programs nothing will change.

Well this is refreshing news from the soap box. Lets us know when you rule in the Utopia you decribe full of former illegals that you are supporting as you perform in the new found positon of thought police, social director & devils advocate.

We will all sing its a wonderful world & sway to the music. That is if you allow music.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Ning

[KittyPollitt 284]

Let's play devil's advocate. Why is it the government's problem or tax payers problem if you can't afford health insurance.

10% of the US population pay 80%+ of the taxes in this country. I'm not going to say that the other 90% of the population's taxes are meaningless in the whole scheme of things, but for the most part it's just not much. My point of the amnesty, open borders and no social services for anyone is this. How many drug dealers, gang member thugs are there in the US from south of the border? 1,000,000? Those are the folks that don't need to be here. The majority of the other 29,000,000 folks are good people. Do some of these 29,000,000 people use social services and milk the system? Sure they do, but it's the government that lets them. It's not their fault that we have screwed up rules and laws allowing free health care for anyone, unemployment, food stamps, etc. Legal US citizens milk the system as well. The problem isn't an illegal immigration problem. The problem is providing these free services to anyone. Stating that one payes taxes so they deserve these services is hogwash. People get these services because of the taxes that the top 10% in this country pay. If social services were done away with and amnesty was granted to the 29,000,000 good illegal aliens those that are here to milk the system would go back. Many illegal aliens are good hard working folks. I'd rather my tax money go toward helping a good hard working illegal alien than a lazy US citizen. The truth is that anyone born and raised in the US has unlimited opportunities. You just have to go and get it. Illegal immigrants do, why can't US citizens? Scrapping all social services coupled with an amnesty solves so many issues. Many illegal immigrants would go back, many won't come, and without government handouts it would put real pressure on US citizens to produce or suffer the consequences. Do I think you deserve to die if you have a heart attack and no money? I don't wish ill will on anyone. However, if you are truly working hard at 2 jobs, and your jobs do not offer insurance and you cannot afford an insurance plan than that is on you. Why? Because you choose your jobs and professions. One thing is certain, it certainly should not be an entitlement that US citizens get all these social program handouts just because. SO back to my original question, "Why is it the government or tax payer's problems if one can't afford health insurance?" Please don't answer, "Because I'm a tax paying USC." There are way too many folks in this country that believe being a USC entitles them to free stuff yet think illegals shouldn't get the same free stuff. that is a horrible way to think. We are all human beings. The only thing that should determine who lives comfortably and who doesn't is "Who produces, who works hardest, and who works smartest." I'm not going to berate you, but if I really worked my butt off at two jobs and I couldn't afford insurance I would switch careers. Insurance premiums are outrageous because hospitals charge outrageous amounts because of all the people who think they are entitled to free care. Until the government does away with all the free social programs nothing will change.

Pfft switch careers. My jobs are hardly careers, mainly because my parents were working stiffs like me who couldn't save for college for their kids, and I'm not willing to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt in student loans to get a job where I don't earn enough to pay them off. I'm not chasing your bullsh1t "American Dream"- I'm trying to put food on the table.

Basically what you're saying is that rich people have a greater right to healthcare than poor people. That's what it boils down to. And that's exactly what's wrong with this country. You jackholes in the 10% feel like you're more human than us 90% because you're wealthy. You're all just one bad day on Wall Street away from being poor like the rest of us. God forbid you find yourself in my shoes. Damn, I hope when the next Great Depression starts, all you rich fuxtards throw yourselves out of windows like the last time.

[KittyPollitt 284]

Let's play devil's advocate. Why is it the government's problem or tax payers problem if you can't afford health insurance.

It becomes the tax payer's and government's problem that workers can't afford healthcare when all the blue collar people start dropping dead from rotten teeth and easily treatable illnesses. Who's gonna build your McMansion and cook your Red Lobster when all the poor folks who normally do it are dropping dead of pneumonia because they can't afford a doctor?

[Ready to do it 101]

Hey, I wouldn't consider myself part of that 10%. My whole point is your way of thinking is flawed. You work 2 jobs and you chose not to have health insurance. In fact, you probably have very little debt, pay cash for everything, and live well within your means. That is great, but the one big problem though is you choose to spend your money to put food on the table and clothes on your back as opposed to purchasing health insurance because you know that if god forbid some catastophe were to happen you would get free health care. So you make X amount of money and you need food, clothes, rent, insurance, etc. Well, let's cross insurance off the list because it is so costly and if we ever get injured or sick we can go to the hospital and get free health care. That is the problem. Why do you have this option? If there was no such thing as free health care, health care would be so much less expensive for all of us. It's because of people like you who think the way you do and who have taken advantage of the system (albeit the system allows you to do so) that makes health care so expensive for all and cause this big debate to raise taxes on the wealthy. Why? Why should I or anyone else pay your healthcare? If the system was not set up the way it is and there was no free health care would you still forgo health insurance (though it would be much cheaper)or would that now be moved up on your list? Do you understand what I am saying? Since health care is free, you milk the system. If it wasn't free and something else was free then you would pay for health insurance and milk the system elsewhere. This entire idea that you deserve free healthcare are socialist ideals. It has nothing to do with the rich versus the poor. It has to do with is this a socialist country? Unfortunately you proved my entire point that it's not illegal immigrants that are bringing the system down, it's poor US citizens that want handouts at every corner. All I am saying is that if there were NO handouts for anyone and the US ended all social programs many problems fix themselves, including the immigration problem. Your argument is, "But we can't do that because then what happens if I get ill or suffer a serious injury." That is the whole problem. People not only relying, but expecting the US government (via taxpayers moeny) to bail out the poor.

To make matters worse, if things are so difficult where you cannot attain health insurance what in the world are you doing petitioning a spouse or fiance? An I864 is to guarantee that the spouse or fiance will not become a public charge. Certainly there is a serious flaw in the system if there is a chance that the USC themself could become a public charge. Not having health insurance makes you a public liability. If the US government is concerned about spouses or fiances of petitioners becoming a public charge perhaps they should tighten the rules on the petitioner themself first.

And that's exactly what's wrong with this country. You jackholes in the 10% feel like you're more human than us 90% because you're wealthy. You're all just one bad day on Wall Street away from being poor like the rest of us.

[Ready to do it 101]

Ning- You call it a utopia, not really. The US needs to get back to being a republic, a land of opportunity and quit trying to be a social country trying to take care of everyone.

If all social programs were ended you'd be surprised not only how many illegal immigrants would go back to thier countries, but also you'd see a significant decrease in border crossings. Heck, you'd probably even see a serious decrease in legal immigrants wanting to come. That tell you something. That tells you that many come simply for all the free handouts. It didn't used to be this way. 25-30 years ago if a USC got sick and couldn't pay the bill their credit would be destroyed and they would not be able to get credit. Why is it now that millions have babies for free in the US, yearly? Guess who pays for that? The system needs to be fixed.

Well this is refreshing news from the soap box. Lets us know when you rule in the Utopia you decribe full of former illegals that you are supporting as you perform in the new found positon of thought police, social director & devils advocate.

We will all sing its a wonderful world & sway to the music. That is if you allow music.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Ning- You call it a utopia, not really. The US needs to get back to being a republic, a land of opportunity and quit trying to be a social country trying to take care of everyone.

If all social programs were ended you'd be surprised not only how many illegal immigrants would go back to thier countries, but also you'd see a significant decrease in border crossings. Heck, you'd probably even see a serious decrease in legal immigrants wanting to come. That tell you something. That tells you that many come simply for all the free handouts. It didn't used to be this way. 25-30 years ago if a USC got sick and couldn't pay the bill their credit would be destroyed and they would not be able to get credit. Why is it now that millions have babies for free in the US, yearly? Guess who pays for that? The system needs to be fixed.

Baloney! People don't come to the US for free handouts. Those handouts are more difficult to get than you think. You can't stroll across the border and walk into a welfare office and get a benefits card.

People come to the US for work, and there's not enough jobs on the bottom end of the economic ladder to support an open door policy. The US job market is already bottom heavy with unskilled workers, and those are the only people who would be flooding into the US if there were no immigration policies. If you remove all social safety nets then the US will quickly devolve into the same sort of third world sh!thole many of those people escaped from - vast numbers of unemployed living in total abject poverty. Those people will leave, alright, but only after going back home looks more attractive than staying in the US. Personally, I don't want to live in that America, and I would greatly appreciate if our lawmakers don't take any further steps to make America like that.

[Golden Gate 530]

Priorities Edited July 31, 2011 by Golden Gate

[KittyPollitt 284]

Hey, I wouldn't consider myself part of that 10%. My whole point is your way of thinking is flawed. You work 2 jobs and you chose not to have health insurance. In fact, you probably have very little debt, pay cash for everything, and live well within your means. That is great, but the one big problem though is you choose to spend your money to put food on the table and clothes on your back as opposed to purchasing health insurance because you know that if god forbid some catastophe were to happen you would get free health care. So you make X amount of money and you need food, clothes, rent, insurance, etc. Well, let's cross insurance off the list because it is so costly and if we ever get injured or sick we can go to the hospital and get free health care. That is the problem. Why do you have this option? If there was no such thing as free health care, health care would be so much less expensive for all of us. It's because of people like you who think the way you do and who have taken advantage of the system (albeit the system allows you to do so) that makes health care so expensive for all and cause this big debate to raise taxes on the wealthy. Why? Why should I or anyone else pay your healthcare? If the system was not set up the way it is and there was no free health care would you still forgo health insurance (though it would be much cheaper)or would that now be moved up on your list? Do you understand what I am saying? Since health care is free, you milk the system. If it wasn't free and something else was free then you would pay for health insurance and milk the system elsewhere. This entire idea that you deserve free healthcare are socialist ideals. It has nothing to do with the rich versus the poor. It has to do with is this a socialist country? Unfortunately you proved my entire point that it's not illegal immigrants that are bringing the system down, it's poor US citizens that want handouts at every corner. All I am saying is that if there were NO handouts for anyone and the US ended all social programs many problems fix themselves, including the immigration problem. Your argument is, "But we can't do that because then what happens if I get ill or suffer a serious injury." That is the whole problem. People not only relying, but expecting the US government (via taxpayers moeny) to bail out the poor.

To make matters worse, if things are so difficult where you cannot attain health insurance what in the world are you doing petitioning a spouse or fiance? An I864 is to guarantee that the spouse or fiance will not become a public charge. Certainly there is a serious flaw in the system if there is a chance that the USC themself could become a public charge. Not having health insurance makes you a public liability. If the US government is concerned about spouses or fiances of petitioners becoming a public charge perhaps they should tighten the rules on the petitioner themself first.

You're incredibly naive if you think that our corporate health insurance providers would lower premiums if social services programs were eliminated. If "free" healthcare wasn't offered to me, I simply would not have health insurance at all, and my daughter and I probably would have died in childbirth, making my need to put food on the table a moot one. I've been coughing up 30% of my income since I was 13 years old. I see VERY LITTLE other benefits from my tax dollars, which go to funding un needed wars and outrageous salaries for politicians. If they didn't tax us to death, maybe we COULD afford health insurance.

Oh and btw, my income is enough for the I864.

And I believe in Socialism. Capitalism destroyed this country. If it got rid of social programs, I'd be first on the plane to leave.

[Ning 619]

Ning- You call it a utopia, not really. The US needs to get back to being a republic, a land of opportunity and quit trying to be a social country trying to take care of everyone.

If all social programs were ended you'd be surprised not only how many illegal immigrants would go back to thier countries, but also you'd see a significant decrease in border crossings. Heck, you'd probably even see a serious decrease in legal immigrants wanting to come. That tell you something. That tells you that many come simply for all the free handouts. It didn't used to be this way. 25-30 years ago if a USC got sick and couldn't pay the bill their credit would be destroyed and they would not be able to get credit. Why is it now that millions have babies for free in the US, yearly? Guess who pays for that? The system needs to be fixed.

I came here legally. I came to be part of the republic you say doesnt exist. I am definatly in the land of opportunity & dont need or want any government assistance.

You dont seem to know anything about what it takes to qualify for these social programs. The illegals cant just walk in & sign up. Neither can the legals unless they meet certian criteria. If they do qualify then its great that our tax money provides the help they need.

Nothing is the way it used to be. Time & progress marches on. Your Utopia didnt & wont exist. If you want to fix the system as you say use your right to vote. Take your soap box to your local park & tell it until the ignorant masses around you listen. Run for office. There is an opening in the Weiner office for example.

By the way I see you are in the process of bring an immigrant here. We did you bother with the visa for her? In your new world she will realize her mistake & want to leave anyway. Will she stay for the free handouts?

[Ready to do it 101]

Ning and Squeaky-

It's ok to disagree with ideas and concepts, but the attacking of a person or rude remarks toward a person are unneccesary.

[Ready to do it 101]

Jim-

Anyone, illegal or not (legal folks assuming they make under a certain amount), can walk into a hospital and get free health care. How do I know? I recently watched my ex-wife take one of her illegal friends who was injured. Not only did he get free health care, they required him to sign up for a zillion free government benefits.

Regarding your second point, "If you remove all social safety nets..." Exactly!!! That is exactly what the US needs to do to accomplish a few things, 1) Get many illegals to leave on their own, 2) Stop the flow of illegal aliens from coming (as they'll get word that it's not some Disneyworld up here), and 3) Create a middle class again. How will this create a middle class? It will force legal USC and permanent residents to get off their butt and work, educate themselves, and provide for themselves. Some will and some won't. Those that will eventually will make the middle class, those that don't... well it's their problem. Somewhere along the line people came up with this idea that the taxes of the rich are supposed to go to the government in the form of a blank check so the government can than supply free services to the poor. It's ludicrous. Tax money should be used on goods or services that provide for or benefit everyone such as schools, roads, infrastructure, etc. Any money spent by the US government on an individual is simply wrong. I.e. Food stamps, medicaid. Benefits should only be paid for something that benefits everyone. It does not benefit me if you get food stamps. It does not benefit you if I get medicaid. By not having a system of equality and treating some better than others they are simply handouts for people as a reward for not working or not being responsible enough to have health insurance, etc. While I do agree with squeakys point that health insurance companies aren't just all of the sudden going to lower premiums if free health care is done away with, I will state that premiums never would have gotten so high if there was no such thing as medicaid and free rides in the first place. Squeaky has stated that she is not college educated and is a socialist so I understand her arguement, but this isn't a socialist country. She thinks capitalism is what doomed this country. I tend to believe that you are pretty well educated. Are you going to tell me that you are not a Capitalist as well?

Baloney! People don't come to the US for free handouts. Those handouts are more difficult to get than you think. You can't stroll across the border and walk into a welfare office and get a benefits card.

If you remove all social safety nets then the US will quickly devolve into the same sort of third world sh!thole many of those people escaped from - vast numbers of unemployed living in total abject poverty. Those people will leave, alright, but only after going back home looks more attractive than staying in the US.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Pfft switch careers. My jobs are hardly careers, mainly because my parents were working stiffs like me who couldn't save for college for their kids, and I'm not willing to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt in student loans to get a job where I don't earn enough to pay them off. I'm not chasing your bullsh1t "American Dream"- I'm trying to put food on the table.

Basically what you're saying is that rich people have a greater right to healthcare than poor people. That's what it boils down to. And that's exactly what's wrong with this country. You jackholes in the 10% feel like you're more human than us 90% because you're wealthy. You're all just one bad day on Wall Street away from being poor like the rest of us. God forbid you find yourself in my shoes. Damn, I hope when the next Great Depression starts, all you rich fuxtards throw yourselves out of windows like the last time.

So why couldn't you get grades good enough to get a scholarship? I'm not trying to be rude but it's not like you had no choice. You made your choice that higher education wasn't for you, and that's completely fine. But you are obviously working crappy jobs if you can't afford insurance, even a minimum. Can't you get a job that includes insurance? Can't you put a bit of money aside?

I also don't think that you should should die if you had a heart-attack, but that doesn't mean you couldn't pay your bill, or at least part of it. Everyone makes their choices in life. I could choose to not pay my CC bill back in Aus 'cause I don't live there any more, but I don't, I choose to pay it.. as irritating and stressful as that is.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

It becomes the tax payer's and government's problem that workers can't afford healthcare when all the blue collar people start dropping dead from rotten teeth and easily treatable illnesses. Who's gonna build your McMansion and cook your Red Lobster when all the poor folks who normally do it are dropping dead of pneumonia because they can't afford a doctor?

Lots of people make low-income work for them. Saving for what they need. Paying their bills. Cutting back on "luxuries". You want your cake and you wanna eat it too. You made your choices, and we made ours. Not everyone who is rich or middle class even got that way because their family was. Some of us worked hard to get where we are.

[Ning 619]

Ning and Squeaky-

It's ok to disagree with ideas and concepts, but the attacking of a person or rude remarks toward a person are unneccesary.

Here is the example YOU set & now condem. You didnt understand what I said yet responded with this. It would be against the TOS to advise anyone in how they could or should avoid following the laws.

"Well aren't you a good samaritan"