TOS Violations and Moderator Responses

[blahblahblog 36]

Advising someone that previously overstayed on their legal avenues for immigration is not equivalent to advising someone on how to enter the US under false pretenses. One is giving advice on perfectly legal options, and the other is about giving advice on how to possibly rack up misrepresentation charges. One is against the VJ TOS and one is not.

Why should someone that previously overstayed, no matter for how long, not be advised on the legal channels available to them? Why are they not allowed to learn about the immigration laws the same as anyone else? Just because you don't want them to be?

Now we're piling on BaronB as if what he's saying is utterly absurd. It isn't. There are two reasons why you wouldn't want to advise on the legal channels to fix someone's illegality. (A) They may be lying and they're using the information to plan the best way of engaging in future fraud. (B) The information provided is open for other people to plan their own illegal behavior. For example, sandranj threads, are a library on what evidence you need to get a VAWA claim approved, but she's only providing advice for people that were abused.

Someone who has broken the law is not entitled to advice here, definitelty not someone who has done so for close to a decade. That falls into the same category as advising newbies how to cheat the system by coming in with false intentions.

If you were a lawyer you would know this. If you are going to advise long term criminals, you should advise new criminals. There should be no discrimination between those classes of illegal people. Both are criminals in the eyes of the law. One is not more deserving than the other.

Now I'm starting to doubt you're a lawyer. As a lawyer you should know that there *is* a giant ethical difference between a client that says "I murdered someone, what is my best defense" and a client that asks "I want to murder someone, how do I do get away with it?" These are not the same thing, even if the advice is the same ("what is the evidence?"). You probably think both of them are abominable and you personally may not want to represent either client. But you should know that representing the first one is legitimate but advising the second one is conspiracy murder.

The current community understanding of the TOS seems to follow this same guideline. Some of the advice can be used by people to plan future fraud, yes. And some people can come here and lie about their situation so as to get advice for a future illegal behavior. I understand why you have an issue with this. But there's no need to use a hyperbolic argument to make your point.

If you wanted to be pedantic entering sans inspection is not a criminal offence.

If you're being pedantic, I think illegal crossing is actually a misdemeanor.

[Boiler 45,486]

So no VAWA threads, seen a lot of fraud there.

No MENA forum?

and your are wring about uninspected entry.

[blahblahblog 36]

So no VAWA threads, seen a lot of fraud there.

No MENA forum?

and your are wring about uninspected entry.

Me? I don't agree with BaronB. Saying his complaint has some merit doesn't mean I endorse it at all.

[BaronB 42]

Advising an innocent person who has not yet committed a crime is less illegal than advising a criminal on how to continue committing their crime.

Please keep in mind my advice applies to a specific case - that of a person who came in on a temporary visa and deliberately chose to overstay. In law. intention makes the difference between culpability and much worse sentencing.

You may believe you are clever and above the law but your reasoning will hold no sway in a US court of Law. You are all labouring under a false reality. This site and the people who advise the criminals are in for a nasty surprize should they be investigated.

Edited April 24, 2015 by BaronB

[Boiler 45,486]

Advising an innocent person who has not yet committed a crime is less illegal than advising a criminal on how to continue committing their crime.

As that does not happen, such post that may head that way are closed very quickly, I am not sure what your point is.

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

CHRIST ON A BIKE

Advising someone how to use a legal method is not illegal, nor is it unethical. It may not match up with your morality. Deal with it. Further, we are not allowed to advise on this site in any true legal capacity -- it's in the TOS (learn it/live it/love it).

PS: Please explain the less illegal/more illegal split. I don't recall that from law school in England or California.

[BaronB 42]

As that does not happen, such post that may head that way are closed very quickly, I am not sure what your point is.

It absolutely does and has happened here. An illegal alien who comes here for "advice" is looking to continue their wrongdoings. There is no legal advice for these people that doesn't involved further illegal activity. You may feel they have a right to remain in the US but the USCIS is very clear on this matter. Assisting people who have broken Federal Laws is not only unethical but illegal.

[BaronB 42]

CHRIST ON A BIKE

Advising someone how to use a legal method is not illegal, nor is it unethical. It may not match up with your morality. Deal with it. Further, we are not allowed to advise on this site in any true legal capacity -- it's in the TOS (learn it/live it/love it).

PS: Please explain the less illegal/more illegal split. I don't recall that from law school in England or California.

Christ has nothing to do with it. Advising an illegal alien on how to cheat the system is unethical, illegal and un-American.

[Boiler 45,486]

And does not happen, I have been here a very long time and I have never seen a thread like that run its course, every one has been closed.

Just thinking even I2US closes threads like that down and that site would give you major issues.

[blahblahblog 36]

Advising an innocent person who has not yet committed a crime is less illegal than advising a criminal on how to continue committing their crime.

Please keep in mind my advice applies to a specific case - that of a person who came in on a temporary visa and deliberately chose to overstay. In law. intention makes the difference between culpability and much worse sentencing.

You may believe you are clever and above the law but your reasoning will hold no sway in a US court of Law. You are all labouring under a false reality. This site and the people who advise the criminals are in for a nasty surprize should they be investigated.

1) I dispute your assertion about what is "less illegal" there but I don't care enough to elaborate. In any case advising someone about how to stop their criminal act in the best possible way is legal as long as all the advised acts are legal. You can instruct a murder that he should not answer any question from a cop. But you can't instruct him to destroy evidence.

2) In the specific case, an immigration lawyer's advice to a hypothetical IR overstayer working with a fraudulent SSN would be "get I-130, stop working, stop using the fake SSN, no lying in forms, apply for waivers, AOS and hope for the best". No one cares about the level of guilt his guy has because the procedure is the same. His level of guilt might make it harder for him to get the waivers, but that's it.

3) We're not that guy's lawyer and this isn't legal advice. So our clever reasoning doesn't have to "hold sway" in a US Court of Law. I'm also imagining the following scene:

EOIR/IJ/IO: "Well, mr., you're very culpable and yet you managed to know the legal steps to become legal. Yet, you don't have a lawyer. I wonder, who was the irresponsible person that help you with the forms?"

Overstayer: "Oh, it's this website visajourney. Their hive mind knows a lot about the immigration procedures and they were very helpful!"

EOIR/IJ/IO: "WHAT! A WEBSITE? GIVING ADVICE TO CRIMINALS? THEY ARE LABORING UNDER A FALSE REALITY! WE MUST INVESTIGATE THEM AND THEY ARE IN FOR A NASTY SURPRISE!"

[Lemonslice 4,840]

It absolutely does and has happened here. An illegal alien who comes here for "advice" is looking to continue their wrongdoings. There is no legal advice for these people that doesn't involved further illegal activity. You may feel they have a right to remain in the US but the USCIS is very clear on this matter. Assisting people who have broken Federal Laws is not only unethical but illegal.

Why is USCIS offering paths to adjust status? Because it is legal

[yuna628 9,676]

Everyone has the right to seek council. Even the worst criminals in the world have this right all the way through the appeals process (I'm fairly certain there are some lawyers who know their client is guilty but continue to represent them too). It is not illegal or even wrong to council someone towards the manner in which they can behave legally, especially if the law allows and gives avenues for them to accomplish it. What is wrong, morally and in terms of the TOS here, is to council someone to do something illegally.

We may feel morally grievous or that it is 'unfair' to see persons who have behaved wrongly ask for advice (afterall we've done it the 'right' way why should those who have done it the 'wrong' way be allowed to get in line is the kind of thinking here), after they have had a change of circumstance or heart but they should never be denied the right to do so if there is a legal means for them to do so. I would rather a person decide it is time for them to do the right thing and seek knowledge on how to do it, then to be comfortable with doing the wrong thing.

This site does exist to help those seeking to do things the legal way (their status before they decided to do things the legal way doesn't seem to be a factor), and that seems to be precisely what persons here do. If those avenues that are disagreed with didn't exist legally, there would be no advice to give.

Baron: if said person chose to overstay knowing that their activities were illegal under the law but now wishes advice as to what the right course of action is and people give advice regarding those aspects in question -- how is this illegal or perhaps I should say in any pretext aiding or abetting criminal activity in a court of law? Your advice to the person would most likely be of no sympathy and to leave the United States and return home immediately. You'd be perfectly within your right to say or feel this. However, it only provides an incomplete picture, if under the law, avenues exist to still remain here and to 'become legal'. Many of us may disagree with those aspects of the law but that does not deny they exist. We have the right to not approach those threads or subjects in question, and we further have the right to not respond to them or offer input on the matter in question that we may find ethically reproachable.

This is a DIY help site, and the TOS of such protects it and it's members greatly from a large amount of responsibility under the law, if someone was crazy enough to 'investigate' it. I say this quite earnestly in understanding the workings of website TOS's and ULs for about 15 years now. Statements made by members here are expressly their own and do not reflect any official legal capacity such as going to an attorney. Any of the information here, no matter how innocent or completely legal it is could be used by someone seeking to fraud the system, sure. But those providing information on a public forum so long as it is legal are not held responsible for what a fraudster uses it for (that potential fraudster doesn't even have to register to view information here). I would challenge to find a legal case as relating to a forum where such forum posters or website would be held liable for providing information that is not illegal in nature. I too am envisioning a scenario similar to what blahblah sees.

[KayDeeCee 4,893]

Now we're piling on BaronB as if what he's saying is utterly absurd. It isn't. There are two reasons why you wouldn't want to advise on the legal channels to fix someone's illegality. (A) They may be lying and they're using the information to plan the best way of engaging in future fraud. (B) The information provided is open for other people to plan their own illegal behavior. For example, sandranj threads, are a library on what evidence you need to get a VAWA claim approved, but she's only providing advice for people that were abused.

So we should stop helping people learn their legal options under the immigration laws because some people out there are liars?

It absolutely does and has happened here. An illegal alien who comes here for "advice" is looking to continue their wrongdoings. There is no legal advice for these people that doesn't involved further illegal activity. You may feel they have a right to remain in the US but the USCIS is very clear on this matter. Assisting people who have broken Federal Laws is not only unethical but illegal.

Where was someone advised on how to illegally remain in the US? Links?

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

It absolutely does and has happened here. An illegal alien who comes here for "advice" is looking to continue their wrongdoings. There is no legal advice for these people that doesn't involved further illegal activity. You may feel they have a right to remain in the US but the USCIS is very clear on this matter. Assisting people who have broken Federal Laws is not only unethical but illegal.

pure assumption on your part here.

Edited April 25, 2015 by charles!

[Boiler 45,486]

There is a thread at the moment where the OP is a scammer that has seemingly pulled pretty much very trick in the book and is receiving the welcome you would expect.