Tony Snow and Press Spar: 'Torture' For All of Them

[Heracles 417]

steve, your post topic could have just as easily said "torture for none of them". that is possible, right, that congress and the senate could have made legislation that the president asked for in which it unequivocally stated no water-boarding, sleep deprivation, or anything else that you might define as torture. but your disdain and distrust for this president, and your glass half empty outlook on life in general, precludes you from doing so.

now, several weeks back i called you an idiot in a post, and i immediately edited/reposted to retract that comment, as i understand we all can have differing opinions on political, moral, and social issues. but i've been looking over your posts here lately and i see that you have a very condescending attitude towards people that don't agree with your posts here, and in fact have called several idiots. well, i'm not surprised, liberals in general have a very condescending attitude towards anyone that does not share their liberal aka socialist aka communist views. (yes, i purposely put that line in from another post, i'm sure you know where it came from).

It is quite easy to work Steve's logic out. Like any hardcore lefty he will post links and extracts written by like-minded people who have absolutely no idea about a topic, yet believe they are experts in it. Who do you think is bringing out all of this 9/11 was deliberate #######. It sickening to think that the hard left, much like terrorists, have absolutely no morals left and will stoop to any level to get their way. Hmmm come to think of it, it makes sense why they are so sympathetic to like-minded terrorists..

Funny thing about the left is that they hate big bad corporations but have no problem with anyone of them making millions from propaganda and lies. That is "different" of course....

Edited September 15, 2006 by Infidel

[mmmbop1976 1]

steve, your post topic could have just as easily said "torture for none of them". that is possible, right, that congress and the senate could have made legislation that the president asked for in which it unequivocally stated no water-boarding, sleep deprivation, or anything else that you might define as torture. but your disdain and distrust for this president, and your glass half empty outlook on life in general, precludes you from doing so.

now, several weeks back i called you an idiot in a post, and i immediately edited/reposted to retract that comment, as i understand we all can have differing opinions on political, moral, and social issues. but i've been looking over your posts here lately and i see that you have a very condescending attitude towards people that don't agree with your posts here, and in fact have called several idiots. well, i'm not surprised, liberals in general have a very condescending attitude towards anyone that does not share their liberal aka socialist aka communist views. (yes, i purposely put that line in from another post, i'm sure you know where it came from).

It is quite easy to work Steve's logic out. Like any hardcore lefty he will post links and extracts written by like-minded people who have absolutely no idea about a topic, yet believe they are experts in it. Who do you think is bringing out all of this 9/11 was deliberate #######. It sickening to think that the hard left, much like terrorists, have absolutely no morals left and will stoop to any level to get their way. Hmmm come to think of it, it makes sense why they are so sympathetic to like-minded terrorists..

Funny thing about the left is that they hate big bad corporations but have no problem with anyone of them making millions from propaganda and lies. That is "different" of course....

yup, sympathetic to dictators also, and it seems just about any government that has total control over their population.....hhmmmmm, birds of a feather........

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You also have to remember that the Geneva Convention refers to POW's. Terrorists are not POW's when we catch them. They are not under the rules of the Geneva Convention so this whole thing is really moot. They are not associated with any particular government. They are not a part of any organized army and they do not wear a uniform. They are really illegal combatants. While I don't condone pulling their fingernails out or using a branding iron on them I see no reason to treat them with the same respect a POW would get. After all, when they catch one of our people they saw their heads off with a knife!!

Gary, you're telling me that these detainees who have yet to be formally charged, tried and found guilty in a court of law are in fact all terrorists??? Do you know how many of these detainees were picked up in the first place??? Due process, due process, due process...it's a fundamental prinicipal of what our country was founded on and just because these people are foreigners doesn't mean we throw those prinicipals out the window. I'll provide you with the stats if you want to see just who these detainees are. You realize that many have been released without any charges, right? Some after being held for 5 years! Being held in Guantanamo Bay does not equate to guilt or being a terrorist. In fact, how many detainees have been tried and found guilty? Due process. Without it and we become no better than the tyrant we removed in Iraq.

Edited September 15, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[mmmbop1976 1]

this person, Steven_and_Jinky, believes that president bush advocates torturing children, even in front of their parents, even sexually......

Here is an interesting video in which the first part discuss how the Bush administration decided to "stop calling it torture and start calling it pressure and if someone died in custody that is even better!"

and "even torture small children in front of their parents, even sexually".

"bush even claimed having 'executive authority' to ignore ANY federal law he wished."

Time to phone Olga.

enjoy.

Important video, Marc! Thanks!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

steve, your post topic could have just as easily said "torture for none of them". that is possible, right, that congress and the senate could have made legislation that the president asked for in which it unequivocally stated no water-boarding, sleep deprivation, or anything else that you might define as torture. but your disdain and distrust for this president, and your glass half empty outlook on life in general, precludes you from doing so.

now, several weeks back i called you an idiot in a post, and i immediately edited/reposted to retract that comment, as i understand we all can have differing opinions on political, moral, and social issues. but i've been looking over your posts here lately and i see that you have a very condescending attitude towards people that don't agree with your posts here, and in fact have called several idiots. well, i'm not surprised, liberals in general have a very condescending attitude towards anyone that does not share their liberal aka socialist aka communist views. (yes, i purposely put that line in from another post, i'm sure you know where it came from).

anyway, i also remember in another post where someone had posted a link to a video about torture and in their post they had wording insinuating that the president of the united states condones torture of children, even in front of their parents, even sexually. and you posted back agreeing with it. i have made it my mission here to expose you for the lunatic you are, and i won't retract this time. unless you want to retract your support for that statement, each time i see one of your posts i will post to show people who you really are, a left wing lunatic, not worth debating with....

If you don't like my posts, don't respond. I'm entitled to my opinion as you with yours and by all means, scrutinize my opinion, but don't make this personal. On occasion, I'll call someone an idiot when they say something outrageously stupid ...like communisn aka liberalism aka socialism (Infantile).

As to the video Marc posted, you'll have to send me the link because I can't recall any part that I viewed stating the President condoned sexual torture of children. I think you're reading way too much into these posts and opinions than is there.

[Marc and Olga 0]

This page discusses the various memos that have led us to this interesting point in history. It also contains links to the various memos and orders.

I do not have time to read them now, I have read about 1/3 of it.

I will point out that in 2002 then Secretary of State Colin Powell issued a memo (that page ALSO has links to the memo in question) that discussed many of the points I have made and would be VERY concerned about:

Past adherence by the United States to the GPW;

Possible limitations on invocation by the U.S. of the GPW in Afghanistan;

Likely widespread condemnation by allied nations;

Encouragement of potential enemies to find "loopholes" to not apply the GPW;

Discouraging turn-over of terrorists by other nations;

Undermining of U.S. military culture "which emphasizes maintaining the highest standards of conduct in combat..."

It is time for bed now though! Great timing, these are the memos discussed in the video mmm is spaming

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Justice for Wazir Mohammad, Guantánamo detainee

An argument for due process perhaps? This guy arbitrarily arrested and detained for over a year without charge.

Wazir was arrested in mid-2002 by local men at a checkpoint in Gardez, Afghanistan, when he went to inquire about what had happened to his friend and fellow taxi driver Sayed Abbasin, who had been arrested at the checkpoint earlier. In fact, Sayed Abbasin had been handed to US custody, arbitrarily labelled as a member of al-Qa’ida or the Taleban. He was subsequently transferred to Guantánamo Bay. The same thing happened to Wazir Mohammad. Sayed Abbasin has since been released, having not been charged or provided compensation for his apparently arbitrary arrest.

[kaydee457 13]

There's nothing wrong with producing an outline defining exactly what the intent of Article III is for purposes of guidance to be used by field personnel; those people that need to be sure they act and behave within acceptable confines of the convention.

I can't see any problem with this at all.....

Seems perfectly logical to me.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

this person, Steven_and_Jinky, believes that president bush advocates torturing children, even in front of their parents, even sexually......

Here is an interesting video in which the first part discuss how the Bush administration decided to "stop calling it torture and start calling it pressure and if someone died in custody that is even better!"

and "even torture small children in front of their parents, even sexually".

"bush even claimed having 'executive authority' to ignore ANY federal law he wished."

Time to phone Olga.

enjoy.

Important video, Marc! Thanks!

What a chopf##k! Go listen to the video again, you idiot. If you want refute the narrator's statement as nonfactual then find proof the what he quotes from White House Counsel. Good grief! No wonder political discourse has gone to the toilet in this country - people can't even understand what is being said. Holy Shiite!

Here's the White House memo condoning torture from John Yoo:

http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/doj/bybee80102ltr.html

Edited September 15, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Iraq prisoner abuse was routine

The HRW report gives first-hand accounts of abuses at a detention centre at Baghdad airport called Camp Nama, as well as a facility near Mosul airport and a base near al-Qaim on the Syrian border.

An interrogator posted at Mosul in 2004 told HRW that he and his fellow interrogators had been told by the officer in charge of their unit to use abuse techniques on some detainees.

HRW says its findings show that criminal investigations of abuses need to follow the military chain of command, rather than focusing on lower-ranked soldiers.

The New York-based organisation calls on the US Congress to appoint an independent commission to investigate the extent of the problem, and urges US President George W Bush to appoint an independent prosecutor to investigate and prosecute perpetrators of the abuse.

"It is now clear that leaders were responsible for abuses in Iraq," Mr Sifton said. "It's time for them to be held accountable".

Amnesty International's briefing to the UN committee against torture

Two Afghan detainees, Dilwar and Habibullah died from multiple blunt force injuries inflicted while they were held in an isolation section of Bagram US airbase in December 2002. Army investigative reports later revealed that both men were kept hooded and chained to a ceiling while being kicked and beaten during sustained assaults by military personnel. A soldier who acknowledged inflicting more than 30 consecutive knee strikes to Dilawar (a slight, 22 year old taxi driver) as he stood in shackles, told investigators that the blows were standard operating procedure for uncooperative detainees. An army criminal investigation report said both deaths were caused primarily by severe trauma to the men’s legs, adding that "sleep deprivation at the direction of military intelligence soldiers" was also a "direct contributing factor" in Dilwar’s death.(6) Army medical examiners found the prolonged shackling had also contributed to his death.(7) 7 low-ranking soldiers, charged variously with assault, maltreatment, dereliction of duty and making false statements eventually received sentences ranging from five months’ imprisonment to reprimand, loss of pay and reduction in rank.

Abdul Jaleel died in January 2004 in the US Forward Operating Rifles Base in Al Asad, Iraq, after being kicked and beaten during interrogation. He was tied by his hands to the top of a door frame and gagged when he died. The autopsy report recorded death from "blunt force injuries and asphyxia". A senior army official admitted Jameel had been "lifted to his feet by a baton held to his throat" causing a throat injury that "contributed to his death". (8) Military commanders rejected a recommendation by army investigators to prosecute soldiers involved, on the ground that his death had been the "result of a series of lawful applications of force in response to repeated aggression and misconduct by the detainee".(9)

Major-General Abed Hamad Mowhoush, formerly of the Iraqi army, died during interrogation in the US detention facility in Al Qaim, Baghdad, in November 2003. An autopsy recorded cause of death as asphyxia and smothering due to chest compression. Mowhoush died after being rolled back and forth in a sleeping bag, which was placed over his head and bound with wire, while one of his interrogators sat on his chest. According to testimony in a subsequent court case, use of the sleeping bag was part of an approved "stress position" designed to play upon a detainee’s claustrophobia. It was also reportedly interpreted by officers as falling within the "fear up harsh" tactics that may still be found in military operational manuals. There is evidence that abusive interrogation techniques at the Al Qaim facility were routine and authorized.(10)

The US military initially reported that Mowhoush had died from natural causes. However, several months later, in the wake of the Abu Ghraib scandal, four US soldiers were charged in the death. Only one went to trial and was sentenced to a reprimand, $6,000 forfeiture of pay plus 60 days’ restriction of movement. There is evidence that Mowhoush was subjected to a brutal beating two days before his death by personnel from other agencies, including the CIA, none of whom has been charged.

A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by US Navy Seals in April 2004 in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, deprived of sleep and subjected to extreme cold conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was "undetermined" although the autopsy stated that hypothermia from wet and cold conditions may have contributed to his death.(11) His treatment included various techniques similar to those authorized by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld in his April 2003 memorandum including "environmental manipuation (e.g. adjusting temperature)", hooding and sleep deprivation.

AI - Observation of a fair trial?

[mmmbop1976 1]

this person, Steven_and_Jinky, believes that president bush advocates torturing children, even in front of their parents, even sexually......

Here is an interesting video in which the first part discuss how the Bush administration decided to "stop calling it torture and start calling it pressure and if someone died in custody that is even better!"

and "even torture small children in front of their parents, even sexually".

"bush even claimed having 'executive authority' to ignore ANY federal law he wished."

Time to phone Olga.

enjoy.

Important video, Marc! Thanks!

the OP has this statement.."even torture small children in front of their parents, even sexually" he then starts his next quote "bush even claimed...." . this is intended to give the impression to people that have not viewed the video that president bush is condoning and advocating it, a typical tactic of the left. i notice that you have not taken the opportunity to say that you don't believe president bush advocates the torture of small children, even sexually. the OP stated it as a quote from the video, you gave it a thumbs up. chopf##k, this word is so old already, my opinion

steve, your post topic could have just as easily said "torture for none of them". that is possible, right, that congress and the senate could have made legislation that the president asked for in which it unequivocally stated no water-boarding, sleep deprivation, or anything else that you might define as torture. but your disdain and distrust for this president, and your glass half empty outlook on life in general, precludes you from doing so.

now, several weeks back i called you an idiot in a post, and i immediately edited/reposted to retract that comment, as i understand we all can have differing opinions on political, moral, and social issues. but i've been looking over your posts here lately and i see that you have a very condescending attitude towards people that don't agree with your posts here, and in fact have called several idiots. well, i'm not surprised, liberals in general have a very condescending attitude towards anyone that does not share their liberal aka socialist aka communist views. (yes, i purposely put that line in from another post, i'm sure you know where it came from).

anyway, i also remember in another post where someone had posted a link to a video about torture and in their post they had wording insinuating that the president of the united states condones torture of children, even in front of their parents, even sexually. and you posted back agreeing with it. i have made it my mission here to expose you for the lunatic you are, and i won't retract this time. unless you want to retract your support for that statement, each time i see one of your posts i will post to show people who you really are, a left wing lunatic, not worth debating with....

If you don't like my posts, don't respond. I'm entitled to my opinion as you with yours and by all means, scrutinize my opinion, but don't make this personal. On occasion, I'll call someone an idiot when they say something outrageously stupid ...like communisn aka liberalism aka socialism (Infantile).

As to the video Marc posted, you'll have to send me the link because I can't recall any part that I viewed stating the President condoned sexual torture of children. I think you're reading way too much into these posts and opinions than is there.

i didn't know that somebody died and made you the arbiter of what is outrageously stupid

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think its irrelevant personally. Toture HAS taken place under the Bush administration and while they've taken great pains to ensure people on the ground are punished, the leaders (who were giving the orders - according to a wide consensus of partisan and independent opinion) get off apparently scot free.

(Ahem)

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32166

[Sarah Palin 0]

i didn't know that somebody died and made you the arbiter of what is outrageously stupid

The report of my death was an exaggeration.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

the OP has this statement.."even torture small children in front of their parents, even sexually" he then starts his next quote "bush even claimed...." . this is intended to give the impression to people that have not viewed the video that president bush is condoning and advocating it, a typical tactic of the left. i notice that you have not taken the opportunity to say that you don't believe president bush advocates the torture of small children, even sexually. the OP stated it as a quote from the video, you gave it a thumbs up. chopf##k, this word is so old already, my opinion

You are a chopf##k because you've taken the narrator's statements as meaning that for one they are the OP's statements - Marc thought it was a worthwhile video he wanted to share here and posted the link. Does that mean he stands behind everything stated as his own word? I don't know, how about asking him instead of accusing him. How about asking me if I think the President condones sexually torturing children? You're a chopf##k because you're not concerned about the truth, just your perception of it. It is an important video and it sounded to me very point of fact. As to the allegation that White House counsel John Yoo's memo's and what those memos say, you'll have to find them and read them yourself. But aside from that, you're dicing up the statements made by the narrator into sound bites and ignoring the larger point being made - which is that the White House condoned torture. But keep reaching...I'm sure this is entertaining for all here who read this thread.

Edited September 15, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Ban Hammer 13,633]

i didn't know that somebody died and made you the arbiter of what is outrageously stupid

The report of my death was an exaggeration.

now this is what i'd call a neat name