Does this passage discredit the bible?

[BishopM 114]

^^^^ It is seriously hard to read this with a straight face*!

*as in not bursting out into laughter at various parts

Awwwww man...give a guy some slack

[slim 1,530]

So Christians believe in dragons?

[_Simpson_ 250]

One bit of advice, if you're sincerely trying to understand Christianity, please don't start with the book of Revelation.

He's not, this is a ongoing thing with him. I'm not a believer either but I dont see the point of trying to make ones religion look stupid. Especially Christianity which has done a lot of good around the world.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Just an honest thought...and different viewpoint from the vantage point of 'High Christology'. But what do I know...

Blessings...Bi

I like the idea of personal revelation, which was also popular at the time after Christ died, and didn't return a second time. In that sense, all we have is what we know as individuals, and what has been revealed directly to us. So, if you find that revelation in the works describing the life and teaching of a man that lived 2000 years ago, then perhaps you have found all you need to know, and the atheists that seek no revelation from anything have found all they need to know as well.

[BishopM 114]

+1 well said.

[SMR 368]

The poll is close minded in many ways, the third question in particular. It implies that either the passage is nonsense or that it has a higher meaning that the reader does not understand. What if I believe there is a meaning and I, at least to some degree, understand that meaning? Which option should I choose?

[웃 910]

The poll is close minded in many ways, the third question in particular. It implies that either the passage is nonsense or that it has a higher meaning that the reader does not understand. What if I believe there is a meaning and I, at least to some degree, understand that meaning? Which option should I choose?

That it has a deeper meaning...Now, please break it down for us

[HeatDeath 430]

It's poetry and metaphor.

There is no need to be worried by facetious people who try to make the Christian hope of ‘Heaven’ ridiculous by saying they do not want ‘to spend eternity playing harps’. The answer to such people is that if they cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them. All the scriptural imagery (harps, crowns, gold, etc.) is, of course, a merely symbolical attempt to express the inexpressible... People who take these symbols literally might as well think that when Christ told us to be like doves, He meant that we were to lay eggs.” - C.S. Lewis

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Sorry to do this. This really opened my eyes about the coherency of the literature. Kinda caused me to realize it was truly fictional. One time after church many years ago I tried to briefly talk to a pastor about this. He was really busy and said that I should buy his book!!!

Passage in question:

Revelation 12:3-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Red Dragon, Satan

³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. ⁴And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

The Male Child, Christ

⁵ And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to ^[a]rule all the ^[b]nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. ⁶ Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there ^[c]she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The Angel, Michael

⁷ And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, ⁸ and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

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Why is this silly?

Total stars in universe = 300 sextillion (300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000)

1/3rd = 100 sextillion stars

Size of dragons tail = large enough to whip 100 sextillion stars

100 sextillion = Going out on a mission to pick up each individual grain of sand on earth. Scouring every beach. Then repeating the process 10 times over (give or take 100s and 100s of trillions).

Smallest star = 20% larger than Jupiter

1 Jupiter = 1321 earths (there is not 1 star in the universe that is even remotely close to this small)

So a dragon in the sky will take his tail and whip 1/3rd of the stars out of the sky!!!! I believe that back then they thought a star was maybe the size of a car. And they probably thought there were a couple hundred stars in the sky. So it makes sense why the author would write this because he thought that a dragon could whip a couple hundred stars onto the earth. The closest star is about 4.2 light years away from us (give our take a few months traveling at 186,000 miles per second). The furthest star is more than 13 billion light years away (give or take 100s of millions of years traveling at 186k miles per second)!

Here's one for ya LI. If Superman were to leave the Legion of Super Heroes, would Batman be next in line to take over ? And if so, would he along with Aqua Man, and Wonder Woman be able to defeat Superman?

[BishopM 114]

It's poetry and metaphor.

Great quote from CS Lewis...he has some very good thoughts and seems to have a real talent for being able to verbalize them in a very concise manner...hence, alot of great 'snippets' from him!

Thanks for adding something constructive to the discussion!

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Thanks for adding something constructive to the discussion!

It's still better than being fed to the lions, or used as a human torch during Roman orgies. When your faith could cost you your life, does it make it easier, or harder to believe? How strong is your faith, if your life ends with a desperate act? Is it better to be a voice crying in the wilderness, or douse yourself with gasoline in the town square? Why do some feel the need to take the non-believers with them, rather than just drink the grape punch in solitude?

[luckytxn 2,265]

Sorry to do this. This really opened my eyes about the coherency of the literature. Kinda caused me to realize it was truly fictional. One time after church many years ago I tried to briefly talk to a pastor about this. He was really busy and said that I should buy his book!!!

Passage in question:

Revelation 12:3-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Red Dragon, Satan

³ Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. ⁴And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

The Male Child, Christ

⁵ And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to ^[a]rule all the ^[b]nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. ⁶ Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there ^[c]she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The Angel, Michael

⁷ And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, ⁸ and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is this silly?

Total stars in universe = 300 sextillion (300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000)

1/3rd = 100 sextillion stars

Size of dragons tail = large enough to whip 100 sextillion stars

100 sextillion = Going out on a mission to pick up each individual grain of sand on earth. Scouring every beach. Then repeating the process 10 times over (give or take 100s and 100s of trillions).

Smallest star = 20% larger than Jupiter

1 Jupiter = 1321 earths (there is not 1 star in the universe that is even remotely close to this small)

So a dragon in the sky will take his tail and whip 1/3rd of the stars out of the sky!!!! I believe that back then they thought a star was maybe the size of a car. And they probably thought there were a couple hundred stars in the sky. So it makes sense why the author would write this because he thought that a dragon could whip a couple hundred stars onto the earth. The closest star is about 4.2 light years away from us (give our take a few months traveling at 186,000 miles per second). The furthest star is more than 13 billion light years away (give or take 100s of millions of years traveling at 186k miles per second)!

Out of the whole revelations you choose this? Is it because you can google and then paste? The revelations say a lot more than a dragon that swept its tail and displaced a third of the stars and brought them down to earth. I have read revelations several times and each time I go, "Wow," "huh," "that is some good stuff he was smoking." He had visions. He told others of the visions and they were handed down. Because of this we will have always some that will keep telling us the time is nigh.

As noted before the Apocalypse seemed like it was coming and their home in heaven was secured. When one is continuously hounded and persecuted than it seems apocalyptic even if it is on a more personal level.

I even wondered why they left that part in the bible and removed others but I wasn't the one that was trying to start a church. As brother Bishop said I tend to reread Jesus teachings and remember why I have chosen to follow him. I do know that even the disciples often asked Christ many times questions and the meanings. I wish I had his patience.

Of course we are used to you coming here to question our faith. I don't mind as it is my faith and not yours. You do seem to think of our faith often though. It was not long ago you told us how you laid awake at night and thought of this. It is OK. Heaven is big enough for us all and you included.

[SMR 368]

That it has a deeper meaning...Now, please break it down for us

The passage is referring to a war in heaven that occurred before the creation of the world. In essence, there were two competing plans presented by Christ and Satan. Christ's plan entailed giving everyone agency and letting them choose good or evil on the earth while the plan of Satan was to force everyone to be 'good.' Good is relative because if you have no choice it can't be good or evil, it just is. The dragon, as it says, is Satan. The stars of heaven are souls who participated in this war which includes everyone who lived on the earth as well as others. A third of those souls fought for Satan. At Satan's defeat at the hands of Michael (who is Adam the first man to walk the earth), Satan and that third who followed him were banished from heaven and denied the opportunity to obtain bodies and come to earth.

The male child is Christ, as it says. The rod of iron is the word of God which rules the world. The woman is his mother but also represents the church which falls into obscurity for a time but is nonetheless protected by God. This bares some more explanation obviously, if you're really interested. But it's complicated and you really don't seem to be that interested.

[slim 1,530]

This bares some more explanation obviously, if you're really interested. But it's complicated and you really don't seem to be that interested.

That's my favorite part of Bible stuff. "It's complicated and you really can't understand it until you're educated on it." We need an education on events that happened in a place that's not scientifically proven to exist by beings that also can't be scientifically proven to exist at a time that's not scientifically proven to have happened in the first place

Yet, we're supposed to believe it. I find it ironic we're taught to "believe" in something that isn't believeable without faith. The whole concept is faith-based, which is why it's hard for me to believe people take it so seriously that they're more than willing to kill one another over difference of opinion.