Fraudulent Marriage vs. Legitimate Divorce (Part II)

[Caladan 19]

Purr_Suede,

Best of luck with a difficult situation. It seems that you've taken the necessary steps to protect your own identity and reputation, and politely (and not vindictively) bringing up the matter with USCIS.

You seem to recognize that it's their decision, not yours, and that none of your own 'closure' depends upon her getting her 'comeuppance.' Sounds like you've got your head on straight.

[Peikko 1,575]

You don't deny me the opportunity, but at the same time you continue to try to convey the idea that my opinions are somehow faulty because I don't conform to your idea of how a person should behave/percieve the world had I undergone a particular experience.

As a result you are jumping to some rather peculiar conclusions about what you think I said, why I said it, and what I really meant by it. Neat.

[PurrSuede 0]

Making derogatory remarks about a whole nation is normally classed as racism.

And if you've never been to Russia and don't understand the culture or society, making a derogatory remark such as yours is normally just classified as "ignorant".

I do not believe that a woman in say for instance Russia, who sets out to find a, say for instance American husband, is necessarily embarking on a course of fraudulant behaviour. Why? Because in the majority of cases, I believe they genuinley want a husband as well as the American life style. Is this a good basis for marriage? Whole other can of worms.

How many American males embark on marriage with foriegn spouses because they can get a better looking, younger, more maleable wife that way and is that fraud too? Not for me to judge.

Uh huh, but you can make these remarks (without racism or "prejudice") because....???

While it is true that people do embark on affairs every day and live double lives (actually, something I heartily disapprove, silly I know), do they embark on this behaviour in a premeditated fashion?

Do you think this just HAPPENS by accident? Again, I can't believe someone can truly be so ignorant of people's pre-meditated behaviors... That might be an interesting defense in a divorce case for adultery... "oh I can assure you this happened totally by accident without premeditation..."

wow....

This is the nub of the matter, the premeditatation. Possibly your definition of fraud is narrower than mine.

I believe I defined FRAUDULENT for you in a previous posting. Nothing, per se, in the definition included PREMEDITATION.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fraud

However, it amazes me that you could conceive of someone being "fraudulent" aka "intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right" without "premeditation"... frankly I can't imagine how one can commit FRAUD (lies, perjury, deceit or any other similar definition) nor Adultery for that matter, ACCIDENTALLY...

As for the tasty question, I was referring, as I am sure you realise, to the voyeuristic nature of public forums. This whole topic runs on because people are totally hooked on dissecting possible fraud scenarios, while the more likely, and equally unfortunate divorce for reasons of incompatability, do not.

Well excuse me, but I found your characterization of even the possibility of fraud (whether "premediated" or "accidental") being perpetrated against me, as "TASTY" being in extremely poor taste, and very ignorant as well. And no, I certainly didn't realize this the way it was written...

But hey, that's just me.

-- Dan

Purr_Suede,

Best of luck with a difficult situation. It seems that you've taken the necessary steps to protect your own identity and reputation, and politely (and not vindictively) bringing up the matter with USCIS.

You seem to recognize that it's their decision, not yours, and that none of your own 'closure' depends upon her getting her 'comeuppance.' Sounds like you've got your head on straight.

Thank you for your kind thoughts... They are appreciated, Caladan

This wasn't an easy decision to come to, and took a lot of soul-searching before I reached this point, including talking to friends offlist that I've made through these discussions in VJ, on this and other matters.

Thanks again!

-- Dan

[Peikko 1,575]

Quote me out of context and make up your own version of what you think I said, makes for interesting reading. Thanks

[Peikko 1,575]

Just for fun I'll take one example

"How many American males embark on marriage with foriegn spouses because they can get a better looking, younger, more maleable wife that way and is that fraud too? Not for me to judge. "

Uh huh, but you can make these remarks (without racism or "prejudice") because....???

Thus you attempt to make my illustration of how everyone has a different view of what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to searching for a spouse into some kind of accuasation against American males per se. It's quite clever in a way, but it gets rather boring after a while.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Caladan 19]

What? Come on, discussions of whether his marriage was entered into with a fully open heart and perfect knowledge and secure everlasting love are really neither here nor there when discussing fraudulent intentions.

In fact, one of the reasons the whole thing is complicated is that infatuation could be mistaken for love on both sides of it. Dan could (not saying you did, this is just hypothetical) have fallen in love with the idea of a gorgeous Russian girl instead of his ex; she could have fallen in love with a nice guy who also happened to be a ticket to a nice country. (It's not like love sees the person's soul perfectly. Things like money, status, class, education, etc., matter.)

Or it could be that they were in love, but it didn't last, and now she just desperately wants to stay in the U.S. because she likes it here. None of that is really relevant.

It's not fraud unless she never intended to get married. Dan has some evidence of that, so he says. Whether it's true or provable isn't his concern; his concern is making sure his bank account doesn't suddenly start going to a new address and making sure there's a clear and distinct paper trail of potential problems.

[PurrSuede 0]

Just for fun I'll take one example

I'm glad this entire thread is some sort of exercise in "fun" for you, but that basically says it all...

"How many American males embark on marriage with foriegn spouses because they can get a better looking, younger, more maleable wife that way and is that fraud too? Not for me to judge. "

Uh huh, but you can make these remarks (without racism or "prejudice") because....???

Thus you attempt to make my illustration of how everyone has a different view of what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to searching for a spouse into some kind of accuasation against American males per se. It's quite clever in a way, but it gets rather boring after a while.

Just as you attempted to characterize knowledge's inside experience of the Russian society and culture as racist as well. He never tried to label ALL Russians this way, but if you had any experience you'd know there is a HUGE tendency in Russia to think you can buy your way out of anything, corruption is rampant and a huge societal problem. This is fact, not racism but truth.

You make the same kind of "generalities", in this case about American males seeking foreign spouses, but that isn't "racism" because it come from your lips??? You're not an American male, but somehow you feel qualified to make this view (as I said, without racism or prejudice?) because....??? I never said you made an accusation. I simply wanted to know how come you are qualified to make such a generality, while you characterize Knowledge's generality as "racism"? To me it seems like the "pot calling the kettle" but again, that's just my view...

And if you're so bored, might I suggest that you seek your entertainment (such as characterizing other's interest in my situation as "tasty") in another topic where it might actually be welcomed? Seems to me that YOU are the only one who finds it tasty and that speaks VOLUMES to me exactly what you find entertaining, or not as the case may be...

-- Dan

[diadromous mermaid 36]

You don't deny me the opportunity, but at the same time you continue to try to convey the idea that my opinions are somehow faulty because I don't conform to your idea of how a person should behave/percieve the world had I undergone a particular experience.

As a result you are jumping to some rather peculiar conclusions about what you think I said, why I said it, and what I really meant by it. Neat.

Actually, I'm a pretty easy-going individual, and would rather prefer not to challenge anyone, however, I do object to your condescending manner. Neat? I haven't jumped to any peculiar conclusions. As a matter of fact, I have on several occasions asked you a question. I note you've avoided answering. Perhaps you don't have an answer.

And to address your claim that I think that "because you may not have suffered as deeply as others, then your opinion is less worthy or faulty" ~ that's utterly untrue. Let's just explore the hypothetical. You claim you have not been a victim. Alright, accepted. Then if you'll just indulge me for one moment, let's say you had been victimised. Yes, the unthinkable happened. Now as a victim, are you going to say now that your 'opinions' (that, incidentally you claim I believe are faulty) would change? Or would you resort to being vengeful? Because, up until this point in this discourse, you've practically guaranteed that all victims are 'focused on festering revenge'.

[knowledge 0]

You have one thing right, I don't have a burning ambition to route out immigration fraud.

Do I think Purrsuede's ex acted honestly at all times? I have no idea, I have never claimed to know.

Has she acted foolishly with regard to the motor insurance? Sure, I have already said this makes no sense to my mind and serves more to demonstrates her lack of knowledge of the immigration system as apposed to some clever plot. Was this a form of fraud? Can't see anywhere where I claimed this particular part wasn't anything else.

Should this be reported to USCIS? I can't find a post where I suggested this wasn't the proper course of action.

Does any of what we have been told prove that when his ex embarked on marriage it was purely to get a green card? Erm, no. All her recent actions prove is that for whatever reason, she wants to remain in the US and is that so wrong?

For whatever reason, most of you firmly believe that it is. I have taken a different view.

As it happnes it's not my choice, your choice, or PurrSuede's choice as to whether she is allowed to remain or not.

"it seems to me that what she did might be very similar of what people do in her country back there, especially if she has been "briefed" by her so-called friend (that's also in my opinion of how some jealous russian woman did to others, just to break the relationship). There is very much of corruption there...so in her mind, she is not, yet, here, in the western world where those tactics are analyzed...she is still there in her mind..."

Making derogatory remarks about a whole nation is normally classed as racism. Did you not actually mean that you believe that all Russians are corrupt and therefore are unable to understand what is and isn't a fraudulant action? This whole train of thought is pretty wierd actually, because if you do believe that, then you can't believe that her original intention was knowingly fraudulant which is just too bizarre.

What we do not know, nor can we know, is the context of this marriage, the expectations of both individuals when the marriage was embarked on.

Is it sensible to continue to worry at this when you really will never know the answer? I think not, but then as has been pointed out, it's not my problem.

Have your arguments persuaded me that this is a common practice? No

While it is true that people do embark on affairs every day and live double lives (actually, something I heartily disapprove, silly I know), do they embark on this behaviour in a premeditated fashion? I can't remember the last time someone said to me, oh, I think I'll have an affair. Is it an easy thing to maintain? Again, for me, this would be a hard thing to do but maybe I am in the minority on this.

This is the nub of the matter, the premeditatation. Possibly your definition of fraud is narrower than mine. I do not believe that a woman in say for instance Russia, who sets out to find a, say for instance American husband, is necessarily embarking on a course of fraudulant behaviour. Why? Because in the majority of cases, I believe they genuinley want a husband as well as the American life style. Is this a good basis for marriage? Whole other can of worms.

How many American males embark on marriage with foriegn spouses because they can get a better looking, younger, more maleable wife that way and is that fraud too? Not for me to judge. My only comment is that these are rather facile reasons for getting married but and this is the important bit, it's not up to me to tell you how to go about finding a mate.

As for the tasty question, I was referring, as I am sure you realise, to the voyeuristic nature of public forums. This whole topic runs on because people are totally hooked on dissecting possible fraud scenarios, while the more likely, and equally unfortunate divorce for reasons of incompatability, do not.

PurrSuede chose to write more than bare facts on this forum. Not something I would do, but again, that's his choice. However, having done so, it is rather naive to assume that every view on this will be a mirror image of his own.

I don't think you are interested to understand and hear what people tell you in here. I did not even bother to read your hemorragy of unjustified and out of context stuff!...

[Aussielad 37]

only now need "wog boy" in this and the WHOLE chapter is complete

[knowledge 0]

Just for fun I'll take one example

I'm glad this entire thread is some sort of exercise in "fun" for you, but that basically says it all...

"How many American males embark on marriage with foriegn spouses because they can get a better looking, younger, more maleable wife that way and is that fraud too? Not for me to judge. "

Uh huh, but you can make these remarks (without racism or "prejudice") because....???

Thus you attempt to make my illustration of how everyone has a different view of what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to searching for a spouse into some kind of accuasation against American males per se. It's quite clever in a way, but it gets rather boring after a while.

Just as you attempted to characterize knowledge's inside experience of the Russian society and culture as racist as well. He never tried to label ALL Russians this way, but if you had any experience you'd know there is a HUGE tendency in Russia to think you can buy your way out of anything, corruption is rampant and a huge societal problem. This is fact, not racism but truth.

You make the same kind of "generalities", in this case about American males seeking foreign spouses, but that isn't "racism" because it come from your lips??? You're not an American male, but somehow you feel qualified to make this view (as I said, without racism or prejudice?) because....??? I never said you made an accusation. I simply wanted to know how come you are qualified to make such a generality, while you characterize Knowledge's generality as "racism"? To me it seems like the "pot calling the kettle" but again, that's just my view...

And if you're so bored, might I suggest that you seek your entertainment (such as characterizing other's interest in my situation as "tasty") in another topic where it might actually be welcomed? Seems to me that YOU are the only one who finds it tasty and that speaks VOLUMES to me exactly what you find entertaining, or not as the case may be...

-- Dan

Thanks Purr! btw I am a she, and the least I can say, feel ashamed as a woman when another woman like your ex and her friend or others do harm men. They clearly are hateful persons despising the law and men and US. I have no problem to think that.

You don't deny me the opportunity, but at the same time you continue to try to convey the idea that my opinions are somehow faulty because I don't conform to your idea of how a person should behave/percieve the world had I undergone a particular experience.

As a result you are jumping to some rather peculiar conclusions about what you think I said, why I said it, and what I really meant by it. Neat.

Actually, I'm a pretty easy-going individual, and would rather prefer not to challenge anyone, however, I do object to your condescending manner. Neat? I haven't jumped to any peculiar conclusions. As a matter of fact, I have on several occasions asked you a question. I note you've avoided answering. Perhaps you don't have an answer.

And to address your claim that I think that "because you may not have suffered as deeply as others, then your opinion is less worthy or faulty" ~ that's utterly untrue. Let's just explore the hypothetical. You claim you have not been a victim. Alright, accepted. Then if you'll just indulge me for one moment, let's say you had been victimised. Yes, the unthinkable happened. Now as a victim, are you going to say now that your 'opinions' (that, incidentally you claim I believe are faulty) would change? Or would you resort to being vengeful? Because, up until this point in this discourse, you've practically guaranteed that all victims are 'focused on festering revenge'.

I do appreciate your posts!

[PurrSuede 0]

Thanks Purr! btw I am a she, and the least I can say, feel ashamed as a woman when another woman like your ex and her friend or others do harm men. They clearly are hateful persons despising the law and men and US. I have no problem to think that.

Then I apologize to you, I should have known or seen that from your earlier postings...

-- Dan

[knowledge 0]

Thanks Purr! btw I am a she, and the least I can say, feel ashamed as a woman when another woman like your ex and her friend or others do harm men. They clearly are hateful persons despising the law and men and US. I have no problem to think that.

Then I apologize to you, I should have known or seen that from your earlier postings...

-- Dan

Not at all a problem and I wish you good luck tomorrow with your appt.

[Peikko 1,575]

It is a little wearing to have one’s words so grotesquely distorted.

I did not make a generalization about American men, nor did I make any judgment on any particular practice as regards international dating. What I did do was make a comparison between two stereotypical behaviors. I was using them to illustrate my opinion that making a list of desirable features in a mate does not equate to fraud even if one item on the list is, for example, that the mate is from a particular country.

Why isn’t it fraud? It’s not fraud because the objective is to find a mate, a partner, a husband/wife. The acquisition of a different lifestyle etc is one of the consequences of that action. In other words, regardless of how the partner is found, however silly or frivolous the search that is undertaken may seem to someone else, if the consequence is a marriage which is undertaking in good faith, it cannot be fraudulent.

What would be fraudulent would be if someone made a conscious (premeditated) decision to gain access to another country by manipulating a citizen into marrying him or her.

I realize that what I believe to be in good faith and what someone else believes to be in good faith isn’t easily quantifiable. However, I would attest that good faith would be along the lines that both parties, to the best of their ability, are marrying because they believe the other to be their life partner.

I will ask one final question, why didn’t the OP explain to his ex wife that she could file to remove conditions on her own behalf? Surely this would have ensured more completely that the divorce signaled the end of any further reminder of this situation.

He was generous enough to provide her with necessary documentation so why not make certain that she understood that they were obliged to notify USCIS of the divorce and that she should go ahead and file as a divorcee if she intended to remain in the US.

Was he obligated to do that? No of course not. However, let’s just suppose that not only does he not make her aware of her options/obligations, which he is well aware of, but knowing her lack of knowledge of immigration laws he also encourages her to believe that she cannot file to remove conditions unless they have an ongoing marriage? Her reaction would perhaps be to seek to provide fraudulent proof of the relationship, perhaps offering to ‘buy’ the proofs from the OP and when that failed, attempting to obtain say, motor insurance using his name and address. The OP could then, having delayed declaring the divorce to USCIS until such time as she jumped into the waiting noose, go along and declare it with the expectation that the ex will now have a harder time proving her case.

Of course, I am not saying this is what happened, nor does such a scenario prove that his ex didn’t engage in this relationship purely to gain a green card all along. What it does do is illustrate that it is very easy to present the same facts in different lights and produce startlingly different conclusions.

Mermaid, you are correct, I have not answered you because I do not know what to say. I don’t know what to say, because I don’t understand your questions. I am at a total loss to understand how you conclude from what I wrote that I automatically equate being a victim with a desire for revenge. How/why for example would a victim of famine exact revenge?

What I will say is, that in certain circumstances there is a predisposition by certain people to exact revenge and that by indulging in this, these people become victims of a very nasty and self-destructive behavior pattern.

Personally, I have never had the tendency to go down the revenge route and cannot foresee a circumstance that would lead me there, but life can throw some strange and horrible situations at everyone so who really knows?

[Heracles 417]

So basically what steps have you taken to resolve this??