Fraudulent Marriage vs. Legitimate Divorce (Part II)

[knowledge 0]

No statistics, I just have this bizarre idea that USCIS works on the premiss that most of the cases they see are legitimate, the fraud cases are the exception not the rule.

It's very easy to get into this 'consiperacy theory' about life and it does make many people feel better about themselves.

Life's reality is generally less exciting and more a case of people bumbling along, particularly when it comes to relationships.

As for the 'it's easier to pretend to be in love' thing than asking someone to go along with a fraud upfront. Do you honestly believe that? Are you kidding me? I must be missing something here but that kind of devious behavior strikes me as not only pathelogical but also stupid.

Yes, if you are particularly stupid, you might leave some kind of paper evidence if you went the rather easier 'pay for a card' route but if you are as desperate as you seem to think these people are, well a smaller price to pay than trying to pretend for years that you are in love with someone who, not only they aren't in love with but actually despise...because let's face it, to go through with this kind of deception with someone you actually like even a little bit...it's so complicated it's making my head spin just trying to work it out.

Oh and just think you are this cold, calculating, clever person with this great plan but oh look, if you were a little bit smarter, you would insist your bogus 'love' goes the CR1 route. That way, you can spend less time actually living with the bogus husband and just proceed from home to greeen card and pass go as well.

I guess I can't decide which annoys me most, the idea that people outside the US are so desperate to get to the US that they will do anything to make that 'dream' come true, or the fact that people are so willing to believe the least likely scenario over the more prosaic realities of life.

Do I believe you are just trying to do the right thing? Well, the first post in this thread states:

"But aside from that, I am interested in any feedback, especially from those who truly DID suspect fraudulent intent, and how they went about reporting that to the USCIS and what the ultimate result of their report was..."

Why do you care? What does it matter if your only intention is to 'keep yourself right' in the eyes of USCIS?

The simplest conclusion that I can come to is that it matters because you want to know how likely it is that your ex will get deported if you take action, and if you are lucky someone might post a story that is similar to yours and they post some cast iron way of making this happen.

Of course, I could be wrong and you just want to know how it turned out because you are worried that you might somehow be in trouble with USCIS after providing them with all the necessary information and that these people will ensure that you don't make the same mistakes. After all, this is your duty and you don't want to end up in jail having perjured yourself by mistake.

I guess that's what annoys me most is that you are trying so hard to make me believe that everything you are doing is not for malicious reasons but just 'doing your duty' when the fact is, if this was the case, I wouldn't know anything about you or your ex wife.

The reality is, If this person just wanted to get facts and do 'the right thing' I wouldn't know any of the details of this case and he wouldn't try so hard to make me believe his side of the story.

It may well be that his ex isn't a particularly nice person, but why torture himself with thoughts that she is so evil/pathological/mixed up/crazy/cruel she would go through this sham of a marriage just to get a green card. By doing so, he makes himself a victim rather than a simple divorcee. What good is that doing to either himself, or anyone else? Does anyone feel better in the knowledge that a marriage was fraudulant for whatever reason? I can't imagine what purpose this serves, please enlighted me.

What "conspiracy, bizarre idea" etc..???? the facts are she manipulated the law: the police that she called, the insurance/mail stuff that was not true: what is bizarre is that you do not "touch" in your posts what she did...which is not right! and not answering my question? who lied and trangressed, distorded facts? Of course then, the USC as responsible as sponsor, is towards the gvt and HAS to correct the situation by presenting only the facts...the proofs...as the lawyer said also...are also against the law?...

And ultimately, it seems to me that what she did might be very similar of what people do in her country back there, especially if she has been "briefed" by her so-called friend (that's also in my opinion of how some jealous russian woman did to others, just to break the relationship). There is very much of corruption there...so in her mind, she is not, yet, here, in the western world where those tactics are analyzed...she is still there in her mind...hm!...maybe 1 day she'll get it...But for now, i still do not understand why you do not!....strange!...

[Peikko 1,575]

Take a trip outside of the Western world.

You'll see how many people would like the opportunity to come to the United States. Some of those people would go to extremes in order to come to the United States. Why do you think they wouldn't? Have you ever traveled to a poor country?

This probably isn't worth it but anyway...

...the great third world argument. If you know anything about this you would know that most people don't wish to come to America or be American, hellllll no, they would much rather live in their own country, amongst their friends, relatives, culture, climate ad infinitum.

What they would like however, is all the wonderful trappings of modern western consumerism in their own country and why not? Of course there are any number of reasons why this is a sad indictment of our modern world.

Leaving that aside, I didn't say there weren't economic migrants, I simply questioned the efficacy of this particular method of fraudulant immigragion, and quite frankly, no one has persuaded me that going through a sham marriage is something that most economic migrants would consider if there is an alternative, which clearly there is.

As for the possibilty that in this instance the immigrants original intention wasn't pure love, but might have been tainted with some thoughts of economic improvement. Heck, I have no idea, but that's a long way from fraud. Is it nice? Maybe not, but then how many women/men marry for economic advancement within the US?

I could go on...

As for what I choose to get annoyed about, I think that's my perogative.

Nice post Knowledge, not in the least bit tainted with any racism.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Take a trip outside of the Western world.

You'll see how many people would like the opportunity to come to the United States. Some of those people would go to extremes in order to come to the United States. Why do you think they wouldn't? Have you ever traveled to a poor country?

This probably isn't worth it but anyway...

...the great third world argument. If you know anything about this you would know that most people don't wish to come to America or be American, hellllll no, they would much rather live in their own country, amongst their friends, relatives, culture, climate ad infinitum.

What they would like however, is all the wonderful trappings of modern western consumerism in their own country and why not? Of course there are any number of reasons why this is a sad indictment of our modern world.

Leaving that aside, I didn't say there weren't economic migrants, I simply questioned the efficacy of this particular method of fraudulant immigragion, and quite frankly, no one has persuaded me that going through a sham marriage is something that most economic migrants would consider if there is an alternative, which clearly there is.

As for the possibilty that in this instance the immigrants original intention wasn't pure love, but might have been tainted with some thoughts of economic improvement. Heck, I have no idea, but that's a long way from fraud. Is it nice? Maybe not, but then how many women/men marry for economic advancement within the US?

I could go on...

As for what I choose to get annoyed about, I think that's my perogative.

Nice post Knowledge, not in the least bit tainted with any racism.

Let's see, if an alien were in an economically depressed nation, devoid of all of the trappings and economic advantages that the USA has to offer, where would they get the $20,000 - $40,000 that it costs to do things the more 'viable' way, according to you, that is?

[Peikko 1,575]

Is that the going rate for a green card? I had no idea. Of course this inside knowledge you are privvy to have makes my case much less viable doesn't it? After all, it's so easy to live a double life...of course, it's even easier to believe this was love flawed with a bit of economic climbing, but that isn't so tasty as out and out fraud...

Edited September 17, 2006 by Purple_Hibiscus

[PurrSuede 0]

Leaving that aside, I didn't say there weren't economic migrants, I simply questioned the efficacy of this particular method of fraudulant immigragion, and quite frankly, no one has persuaded me that going through a sham marriage is something that most economic migrants would consider if there is an alternative, which clearly there is.

Great, then we can totally dissolve the entire USCIS process including the "anti-Fraud" investigative unit, since it's apparent in your view of things, this is just a complete waste of tax dollars as NO ONE (in your view) would possibly ~ever~ consider this.

Also that means that the DIRE warnings at the bottom of every USCIS piece of paperwork, such as:

PENALTIES: You may by law be imprisoned for not more than five years, or fined $250,000, or both, for entering into a marriage contract for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws, and you may be fined up to $10,000 or imprisoned up to five years, or both, for knowingly and willfully falsifying or concealing a material fact or using any false document in submitting this petition.

Obviously, this is purely a fairy tale, since in your eyes, it can never happen.

As for the possibilty that in this instance the immigrants original intention wasn't pure love, but might have been tainted with some thoughts of economic improvement. Heck, I have no idea, but that's a long way from fraud. Is it nice? Maybe not, but then how many women/men marry for economic advancement within the US?

Well you know if nothing else, Purple, it is CERTAINLY Fraudulent to insure a vehicle at one address where you don't even reside. If you don't believe me, consult with your insurance agent. And the "other" address on file with the insurance company (just in case this was just a "mistake") I was also told "she hasn't lived there for some time". Mind you, these are FRAUDULENT actions. So she has TWO fraudulent addresses, not just one, on file with the insurance company.

Perhaps she's given this "address" where she hasn't lived for a long time to the USCIS. That would likely be construed as another fraudulent act, don't you think??

Perhaps the fact I caught her in several bare-faced lies, looking right into my eyes and lieing to me, perhaps THAT might begin one to suspect that there might be "fraud" inherent in a situation... usually "honest" people don't lie to their spouse's face, Hibiscus... after all, "fraud" is basically a "lie" isn't it??

Perhaps the fact she looked into my eyes and SUGGESTED to me POINT BLANK that we could commit fraud " by knowingly and willfully falsifying.. or using a false document in submitting a petition... " do you think she just made this up on the spur of the moment?? Or does it perhaps begin to indicate a "pattern"...

After a while a pattern begins to emerge. At least one that's reasonably clear to me, even if it would be less "torturous" for me to simply believe otherwise...

There's also a saying:

If it looks like a horse and walks like a horse and sounds like a horse and smells like a horse and has alllll the characteristics of a horse... then it's probably a horse, not a zebra...

I could go on...

As for what I choose to get annoyed about, I think that's my perogative.

I could go on too, but I think it's my perogative to get annoyed about "being used", and in whatever manner you want to spell it out, lieing and cheating and "using" someone for a gain of benefits is FRAUDULENT, anyway you slice it...

fraudulent:

characterized by, involving, or proceeding from fraud, as actions, enterprise, methods, or gains

given to or using fraud, as a person; cheating; dishonest

Engaging in fraud; deceitful

Characterized by, constituting, or gained by fraud

say what you will, her actions REPEATEDLY have been proven to be fraudulent....

-- Dan

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Is that the going rate for a green card? I had no idea. Of course this inside knowledge you are privvy to have makes my case much less viable doesn't it? After all, it's so easy to live a double life...of course, it's even easier to believe this was love flawed with a bit of economic climbing, but that isn't so tasty as out and out fraud...

That and more, I suspect. If one is so motivated, how difficult is it to keep up a facade? Millions of folks do it everyday, when they carry on an affair whilst slipping back into bed with their spouse. What's so different? Both are deceiving an unwitting spouse. Both are achieving their own personal goals, and both are pretending all is fine in the marriage. They live a double life too, and yet it doesn't seem to be so complicated. In the case of immigration fraud through marriage, it's not even a double life, it's merely a means to an end!

By the way, have you been a victim of immigration fraud, Purple Hibiscus? If not, I'd keep your suppositions to yourself!

[zauberblume 0]

Purple Hibiscus:

Of course most third world countries would like to have the economic success of a modern Western society and perhaps they would have had such success if the Western world hadn't colonized mostly all of the countries that we call "developing." Currently, the possibility of reproducing the economic success, or even excess of the Western world, in a developing country is a rather ambitious process. How long do you estimate it would take for such economic success to trickle down to those citizens in a developing nation?

Please list the alternatives for an "economic migrant." Does the "economic migrant" also see these alternatives?

An intending immigrant who chooses to marry solely to come to the United States for economic improvement without the knowledge of the spouse is most certainly an immoral and fraudulent person. Read the immigration laws on fraud, please.

Your annoyance is just silly. That's all.

--Z

Take a trip outside of the Western world.

You'll see how many people would like the opportunity to come to the United States. Some of those people would go to extremes in order to come to the United States. Why do you think they wouldn't? Have you ever traveled to a poor country?

This probably isn't worth it but anyway...

...the great third world argument. If you know anything about this you would know that most people don't wish to come to America or be American, hellllll no, they would much rather live in their own country, amongst their friends, relatives, culture, climate ad infinitum.

What they would like however, is all the wonderful trappings of modern western consumerism in their own country and why not? Of course there are any number of reasons why this is a sad indictment of our modern world.

Leaving that aside, I didn't say there weren't economic migrants, I simply questioned the efficacy of this particular method of fraudulant immigragion, and quite frankly, no one has persuaded me that going through a sham marriage is something that most economic migrants would consider if there is an alternative, which clearly there is.

As for the possibilty that in this instance the immigrants original intention wasn't pure love, but might have been tainted with some thoughts of economic improvement. Heck, I have no idea, but that's a long way from fraud. Is it nice? Maybe not, but then how many women/men marry for economic advancement within the US?

I could go on...

As for what I choose to get annoyed about, I think that's my perogative.

Nice post Knowledge, not in the least bit tainted with any racism.

[PurrSuede 0]

of course, it's even easier to believe this was love flawed with a bit of economic climbing, but that isn't so tasty as out and out fraud...

Kindly explain to me just -exactly- what is so tasty about your K-1 married spouse sitting across the table from you, discussing your divorce, looking you squarely in the eyes and telling you that "we could leave car insurance in my name at the house, for a small amount of money and then use this when it's necessary to file paperwork, that's what other Russian girls have done..."

Frankly it did not leave a very good taste in my mouth at all, P_H....

Kindly explain to me what is NOT "out and out fraud" about her statement, please.

Thank you.

-- Dan

[knowledge 0]

Take a trip outside of the Western world.

I was and living in WW, Third World and Eastern Europe and Europe world and, my statements are based on long years of analysis of those worlds, including facts and theories based on facts, NOT based from ideas OUT OF CONTEXT.

You'll see how many people would like the opportunity to come to the United States. Some of those people would go to extremes in order to come to the United States. Why do you think they wouldn't? Have you ever traveled to a poor country?

Yes, not only traveled but lived there: corruption exists at every corner of a street. Obviously what you ask me you did not live there or have witnessed it, for some very "strange" reason to me.

This probably isn't worth it but anyway...

Anyway? there is no anyway, this word stucks the accusations you are hemorragizing this thread here without any factual recognition of what was repeating to you here, that you do not get, not only by me, but obviously now by all posters here.

...the great third world argument. If you know anything about this you would know that most people don't wish to come to America or be American, hellllll no, they would much rather live in their own country, amongst their friends, relatives, culture, climate ad infinitum.

What are you talking about? his ex is in the US not the 3rd world. Obviously again, you are running far away of the context here...we were NOT talking about the 3rd world....anyway

What they would like however, is all the wonderful trappings of modern western consumerism in their own country and why not? Of course there are any number of reasons why this is a sad indictment of our modern world.

His Ex was trapped in the western consummerism with the delusionnal thought that she can do here as it pleases her to take advantage of ALL the services and opportunities that US offers, including to NOT RESPECT the MARRIAGE COMMITMENT. and that's in my opinion a borderline delusion of what for HER means the western world where, you did not get it either in this thread: not all people in ww are lacking of the knowledge of what is right or wrong...geez!

Leaving that aside, I didn't say there weren't economic migrants, I simply

you leave it aside, but you come back to the same confusing statement...hm!...where are you going with your post in here?....do you think of what you write here?...

questioned the efficacy of this particular method of fraudulant immigragion, and quite frankly, no one has persuaded me that going through a sham marriage is something that most economic migrants would consider if there is an alternative, which clearly there is.

As for the possibilty that in this instance the immigrants original intention wasn't pure love, but might have been tainted with some thoughts of economic improvement. Heck, I have no idea,

Denial, denial, again, heck, you do not get the facts told here to you...: there was no "possibility" because she falsfied infos, it was NOT tainted, because the facts show CLEARLY she does not live at that adress...and so on...Again, you are not recognizing her LIES....hahahaha...actually that's sooo funny...

but that's a long way from fraud.

If those lies, misinformation, manipulations of people, papers, institutions (the USCIS, the USC, her LOCATION (her landlord), specifically in the begining her spouse AND her commitment to him, the basis on which she came here in the 1st, ) as a repetition, then the law has to conclude if it's fraud or not, and nobody else.

Is it nice? Maybe not, but then how many women/men marry for economic advancement within the US?

I could go on...

This is simply simplistic: there is opportunism and opportunism, and you are not differentiate them. In this case, when the harm has been so deep on many levels as explained to you here by many and on many forms, I, can "go on" and repeating you you are not getting it...

As for what I choose to get annoyed about, I think that's my perogative.

It's not yours anymore, because we "choosed" to tell you your prerogative is WRONG.

And my prerogative is to tell you, you choose here NOT to THINK and recognize that that person, his ex did harm. Not only to his ex, but first to herself, because she risks consequences to her actions, and you can not indefinetly say she is not responsible ultimately.

Nice post Knowledge, not in the least bit tainted with any racism.

Well throwing as last resort that interesting word to me without any argumentation, shows you are out of words; I have no problem to make self-critique, what you call racism, does not apply to me case, again, you are not adequate and in the context, confusing concepts, and so on...In addition, by not recognizing what is right or wrong, in any type of world we can live, or at least recgonizing that there are some limits to take advantage of the precious opportunities that US still has to offer (after all, it's the most ancient democracy, even if everything is not perfect) and get back to reality, especially to look around what's going on, getting informed of how things go in the states, and not, wasting the time as his ex did to manipulate stuff, with her so knowledgeable russian friend (yeah, that's soooo intelligent), to put the right WORD in the context, this is called: deliquincy...and i do not see any racism in here....(btw, your projections here of what you do not want to see, tells me a lot of your issues..)....and makes me think you approve of such things: that are not right, and that continue...on the part of his ex, which is the initial intention to expose ..: she still did not stop doing it....and, I think it's sane to think here of something that is appropriate to make stop such border-line behaviours...

geez, sorry to all if this is too harsh...but i do not think that if we are in the virtual world here...there should not be some limits to insane stuff....that harm our lives...seriously!

[Peikko 1,575]

You have one thing right, I don't have a burning ambition to route out immigration fraud.

Do I think Purrsuede's ex acted honestly at all times? I have no idea, I have never claimed to know.

Has she acted foolishly with regard to the motor insurance? Sure, I have already said this makes no sense to my mind and serves more to demonstrates her lack of knowledge of the immigration system as apposed to some clever plot. Was this a form of fraud? Can't see anywhere where I claimed this particular part wasn't anything else.

Should this be reported to USCIS? I can't find a post where I suggested this wasn't the proper course of action.

Does any of what we have been told prove that when his ex embarked on marriage it was purely to get a green card? Erm, no. All her recent actions prove is that for whatever reason, she wants to remain in the US and is that so wrong?

For whatever reason, most of you firmly believe that it is. I have taken a different view.

As it happnes it's not my choice, your choice, or PurrSuede's choice as to whether she is allowed to remain or not.

"it seems to me that what she did might be very similar of what people do in her country back there, especially if she has been "briefed" by her so-called friend (that's also in my opinion of how some jealous russian woman did to others, just to break the relationship). There is very much of corruption there...so in her mind, she is not, yet, here, in the western world where those tactics are analyzed...she is still there in her mind..."

Making derogatory remarks about a whole nation is normally classed as racism. Did you not actually mean that you believe that all Russians are corrupt and therefore are unable to understand what is and isn't a fraudulant action? This whole train of thought is pretty wierd actually, because if you do believe that, then you can't believe that her original intention was knowingly fraudulant which is just too bizarre.

What we do not know, nor can we know, is the context of this marriage, the expectations of both individuals when the marriage was embarked on.

Is it sensible to continue to worry at this when you really will never know the answer? I think not, but then as has been pointed out, it's not my problem.

Have your arguments persuaded me that this is a common practice? No

While it is true that people do embark on affairs every day and live double lives (actually, something I heartily disapprove, silly I know), do they embark on this behaviour in a premeditated fashion? I can't remember the last time someone said to me, oh, I think I'll have an affair. Is it an easy thing to maintain? Again, for me, this would be a hard thing to do but maybe I am in the minority on this.

This is the nub of the matter, the premeditatation. Possibly your definition of fraud is narrower than mine. I do not believe that a woman in say for instance Russia, who sets out to find a, say for instance American husband, is necessarily embarking on a course of fraudulant behaviour. Why? Because in the majority of cases, I believe they genuinley want a husband as well as the American life style. Is this a good basis for marriage? Whole other can of worms.

How many American males embark on marriage with foriegn spouses because they can get a better looking, younger, more maleable wife that way and is that fraud too? Not for me to judge. My only comment is that these are rather facile reasons for getting married but and this is the important bit, it's not up to me to tell you how to go about finding a mate.

As for the tasty question, I was referring, as I am sure you realise, to the voyeuristic nature of public forums. This whole topic runs on because people are totally hooked on dissecting possible fraud scenarios, while the more likely, and equally unfortunate divorce for reasons of incompatability, do not.

PurrSuede chose to write more than bare facts on this forum. Not something I would do, but again, that's his choice. However, having done so, it is rather naive to assume that every view on this will be a mirror image of his own.

[Peikko 1,575]

Oh, and Ms Mermaid, I am not a victim. Could I have been? Sure, I could have but I chose to get on with my life and let the past stay where it should be. I have no interest in festering on thoughts of revenge, it is a very destructive behaviour.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Oh, and Ms Mermaid, I am not a victim. Could I have been? Sure, I could have but I chose to get on with my life and let the past stay where it should be. I have no interest in festering on thoughts of revenge, it is a very destructive behaviour.

One is a victim, or one is not...not half way between, and rarely does one have a choice. Certainly not in these situations.

Anyone that would couple the words 'victim' and 'festering on thoughts of revenge' in the same sentence, clearly has neither been a real victim nor chooses not to open his or her eyes to what is really being discussed here. In fact, I'd be inclined to say that the natural reaction, and course of action of most victims of fraud is not to imitate Shylock, and want his/her pound of flesh. The wounds are so deep that the principle focus is on healing and restoring, if that can ever be completely possible.

Edited September 17, 2006 by diadromous mermaid

[Peikko 1,575]

Two sentences, and you know nothing about me, my life and what I have or haven't been through.

Your words are designed to convey that my opinions are less worthy becuase I have experienced less suffering. Rather a cheap shot.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Two sentences, and you know nothing about me, my life and what I have or haven't been through.

Your words are designed to convey that my opinions are less worthy becuase I have experienced less suffering. Rather a cheap shot.

Not a cheap shot at all, and I don't deny you the opportunity to have and share your opinion. I don't need to know more about you. You words speak volumes. Had you been victimised, then you'd not associate certain terms automatically. How come for you a victim is someone that is focused on festering thoughts of revenge? Can't you fathom that a person that has been be vicitmised is not necessarily and automatically motivated to get some form of retribution?

[PurrSuede 0]

Oh, and Ms Mermaid, I am not a victim. Could I have been? Sure, I could have but I chose to get on with my life and let the past stay where it should be. I have no interest in festering on thoughts of revenge, it is a very destructive behaviour.

I also chose to get on with my life, as I indicated in a previous post.

And my ex- chose to stick herself back INTO my life with her silly, or ignorant, or malicious, or fraudulent or whatever you choose to call it financial documentation "mistakes"...

I have no interest in festering on thoughts of revenge, if I wanted revenge there are a lot easier and nastier and much more immediate ways to get this than approaching a government officer with the scenarios I've gone through...

If I was interested in "revenge" I might be doing something more assanine like posting her cell phone number (obtained through the insurance snafu) on Adult Friend Finder or some such website.

I don't feel a sit-down with the USCIS is festering thoughts of revenge, nor destructive behavior. If you care to characterize it as such, that's your problem, not mine...

As I said, I can think of much MORE destructive behavior I could certainly engage in, should I have chosen to take the "low road" in these activities.

-- Dan