Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Tanya and Barry 59]

The 90 days ends the first week of October. It has been just over 3 weeks so far.

None of this is normal. Forget the amatuer psychoanalysis. She has no respect for you. If a Russian woman has no respect for you--you are toast. She sees you as a mark. There is a Russian expression for this that escapes me now. You are being set up for VAWA. She is fluent in English and has worked as interpreter for Russian/American couples, yes? She knows all of the ins and outs and has connections already here. You are being set up for VAWA. As someone has already said, if you marry this woman you are going to lose your life as you know it and your mind as well.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Tanya and Barry

[Tanya and Barry 59]

Holly molly!!! You made a "BOOM" by your story here!!! I'm sorry but you are so wrong! The problem is as it was mentioned before...K1 is not a TRY! K1 is "ticket" for those who can't live and breathe without each other...you must understand that. She is grown up women and she totally understood that she is going to leave her country , family and friends...so don't make exuses for this. I'm 25 (I'm Russian beneficiary)...I have amazing life in Russia, supper carrier, I make good money and have great family..and so and so BUT I CAN"T imagine MY life without my Justin anymore! Please, don't wait any changes...im sorry I think it won't work out even if marry her. I put on that she was looking for better life for her and her kid by leaving to USA and having her "American dream" to come true...I bet that ALL VJ members know what is the TRUE LOVE is by waiting months for their beloved...omg there's so wrong situation in your case.

Just feel sorry for all 3 of you...

Wish you luck...AND you are NOT ready to have international relationship it's a lot of "work"...better for you to have american girl I think

"Pravda" from a Russian woman. Stay with the American ex. She seems to like you.

[psychasthenia 9]

Which daytime trash talk show would this be best for? We're a little high end for Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, and nobody's pregnant.

I am sharing this train-wreck as a cautionary tale for all who might experience similar things. It is, of course, 100% my fault for ignoring signs and bringing this woman here in the first place. I had the good fortune of never being in a relationship with a BPD, NPD, etc. before, so I just assumed my girl was just much more emotional than the average woman. Now I am getting a crash course in BPD.

Phil N, I am having some difficulty believing some of the things you write here. I find it quite interesting this need of yours to pathologize your former fiancee. Why are you trying to diagnose her? This is actually showing control issues on your side as well. By "diagnosing" her, you are creating a power differential in your relationship and identifying her as the "problematic" one. It's also interesting to see how much you externalize the responsibility for this situation. If this person meets criteria for borderline personality disorder, then there would have been signs about her relational issues throughout your relationship. You chose to ignore them for whatever reason. I would suggest you look into that. You seem to be provoking this woman as well, which suggests you have your own issues that you cannot address in an adaptive way.

I would think that if you genuinely suspected a personality disorder, you would have encouraged her to meet with a bona fide professional who could help her. It seems like you live in the Seattle area. In that case, you may know that there are several training clinics that provide therapy at a sliding fee scale. You are in no way qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses. I hope that your diligent reading about BDP highlighted that while this is a serious condition, there are several highly effective treatments for it. Linehan's program is only one of them.

[Phil N 4]

Phil N, I am having some difficulty believing some of the things you write here. I find it quite interesting this need of yours to pathologize your former fiancee. Why are you trying to diagnose her? This is actually showing control issues on your side as well. By "diagnosing" her, you are creating a power differential in your relationship and identifying her as the "problematic" one. It's also interesting to see how much you externalize the responsibility for this situation. If this person meets criteria for borderline personality disorder, then there would have been signs about her relational issues throughout your relationship. You chose to ignore them for whatever reason. I would suggest you look into that. You seem to be provoking this woman as well, which suggests you have your own issues that you cannot address in an adaptive way.

I would think that if you genuinely suspected a personality disorder, you would have encouraged her to meet with a bona fide professional who could help her. It seems like you live in the Seattle area. In that case, you may know that there are several training clinics that provide therapy at a sliding fee scale. You are in no way qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses. I hope that your diligent reading about BDP highlighted that while this is a serious condition, there are several highly effective treatments for it. Linehan's program is only one of them.

I don't have a need to "pathologize". I was just hoping for a somewhat-normal woman and the ability to have a happy relationship. When I got extreme manipulation, like no other woman I'd ever experienced, I tried to make sense of it. BPD is where it led, especially when I ran back through the history of the relationship, and tried looking at events through the BPD lens. If you are professionally offended by my amateur diagnosis, I will happily live with that. The BPD part is exceedingly clear, and seems to be the dominant feature. What else is there, well that's where I acknowledge my ignorance. I feel I can also state with confidence that she is NOT Bipolar.

Externalize responsibility? Did you not read my earlier posts acknowledging 100% responsibility for ignoring signs? There were plenty, plenty of signs, and I chose to foolishly believe she would relax and behave like a normal woman in the USA. I operated from the wrong model, and I ignored advice, because I foolishly *wanted* to believe it would work. Mostly I am guilty of having no direct prior experience with personality disorders like this. Women test men ALL the time in different ways. You test us to see if we are weak and needy approval-seekers, among other things. (I am assuming you are female, and including you in the collective "You") You test us men to see if we will hand you our balls to keep in your purse. (Most women don't want such a man) Way too many men don't test women, especially "nice guys". I do. You label it as "provoking". I tested her statements of how she would be in the USA, and found out that she had previously told me what I wanted to hear, and that her actions and intentions were quite different than her words. I found that she is used to using affection and sex as a way of controlling men, and tried to do that with me, to pressure me into a quick marriage. I found that she would rage at me about any outside interests, which I suspect is partly because those limit her opportunity to influence and control me. I found that she could go from raging at me one moment, to talking in a casual and friendly way with houseguests 15 seconds later. I found that she would create arguments out of thin air to advance her agenda and try to control me. Then she would later use the *wrong* argument as the basis for her behavior punishing me. I found that not only did she present herself as an expert on Russian woman/American man relationships, but in the next breath, she also presented herself as an expert on American women in relationships. Uh, NO.

Yes, I do have plenty of my own issues, thank you very much. I've done a lot of work on them throughout my entire adult life, and I feel rather good most of the time about the results. For what it's worth, I disclosed all my (known) issues to her when I visited her in her country. She pooh-pooh'ed the existence of these issues and stated they were absolutely not a concern, and she, like many Russians, tends to think such psychological things are fluffy American Bolshevik anyway.

Linehan's DBT program seems to be the only one I could tell yields somewhat consistent results. Perhaps she's just a better Internet marketer than proponents of other programs. In my city, there is a clinic staffed with at least one person who has been personally trained by Dr. Linehan in DBT and been doing it since 2005. I spoke with her. My objective is to get my girl in there for an assessment. Of course, any such program is a moot point if the potential BPD does not wish to participate, and the woman I spoke with was somewhat hostile and suspicious towards me, and rather protective of the (potential) BPD. I take that attitude as an overall good thing. If you know of other successful BPD treatment programs, please point me to them.

Many of the BPD-related materials suggested NOT confronting suspected BPDs with the information. SWOE listed a few exceptions, and I felt this circumstance fit one of those exceptions.

If you are done scolding me, can you run with me for a bit on the BPD thing, and do you now have some more constructive advice for me, and my own safety and happiness, and for the best overall outcome of this situation? My own safety and happiness is first, of course, but I have no desire to have things be any worse than they already are for this woman and her daughter.

[Phil N 4]

None of this is normal. Forget the amatuer psychoanalysis. She has no respect for you. If a Russian woman has no respect for you--you are toast. She sees you as a mark. There is a Russian expression for this that escapes me now. You are being set up for VAWA. She is fluent in English and has worked as interpreter for Russian/American couples, yes? She knows all of the ins and outs and has connections already here. You are being set up for VAWA. As someone has already said, if you marry this woman you are going to lose your life as you know it and your mind as well.

Yes, I agree with the "respect" comment. I promised myself after wife #1 that I would never again accept disrespectful treatment from a woman, on an ongoing basis.

I think this woman believed I would be much more compliant than I turned out to be. Once she was here, I was quickly on the receiving end of behavior that felt disrespectful, I postponed wedding plans, and started to look at things much harder. But the lack of respect was the key feature that made me pause and truly pay attention. She does have many good qualities. I foolishly assumed I would see those most of the time.

Her "connections" here in the USA do not seem to help her. I think there are at least half-a-dozen women here she has served as an interpreter for. I think because of her BPD traits, she has alienated these clients/friends in the past (the women, not the men), where they are only "acquaintances", and not interested in taking her in. I don't think setting me up for VAWA was plan A; I think she was sincere in coming here, also hoping for a working marriage. But, I have no doubt that VAWA was a ready-to-go Plan B if she didn't like how things were going. And she does seem to have an awareness of the relevant USA rules and laws.

I truly appreciate your comments. There are parts of me that could get sucked into her agenda, and hearing points of view like yours reminds me to NOT do anything (more) that is stupid and hasty.

[Phil N 4]

Justin and Kate, on 16 July 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

Holly molly!!! You made a "BOOM" by your story here!!! I'm sorry but you are so wrong! The problem is as it was mentioned before...K1 is not a TRY! K1 is "ticket" for those who can't live and breathe without each other...you must understand that. She is grown up women and she totally understood that she is going to leave her country , family and friends...so don't make exuses for this. I'm 25 (I'm Russian beneficiary)...I have amazing life in Russia, supper carrier, I make good money and have great family..and so and so BUT I CAN"T imagine MY life without my Justin anymore! Please, don't wait any changes...im sorry I think it won't work out even if marry her. I put on that she was looking for better life for her and her kid by leaving to USA and having her "American dream" to come true...I bet that ALL VJ members know what is the TRUE LOVE is by waiting months for their beloved...omg there's so wrong situation in your case.

Just feel sorry for all 3 of you...

Wish you luck...AND you are NOT ready to have international relationship it's a lot of "work"...better for you to have american girl I think

"Pravda" from a Russian woman. Stay with the American ex. She seems to like you.

International relationship isn't so much the problem here... I had a delightful Kenyan girlfriend (PhD student) a few years back, and a couple awesome Pacific Islander girlfriends too. The problem is picking the wrong woman for me. This woman has made me appreciate the ex so much more...

I have a criteria of about 50 things I "hope" for in a life parter. 50 yes/no questions like "Would I enjoy going on a week-long road trip with just her?" and "Does she have goals and a history of personal development" and "If I were ill or incapacitated for an extended period, could I count on her to stick with me?" There were 3 showstoppers with this ex-girlfriend, and I told her clearly what they were. She knew my Russian gal was coming, months ahead of time, and just wanted to spend as much time with me as she could before then, and hope I would change my mind. I love with my heart, but I commit with my head. In the last 6 months, my American ex has made substantial and sincere progress on all 3 showstoppers, where now I feel they aren't showstoppers. She apologized profusely to me for being scared and not fully giving and committing earlier, because the things I wanted from her were things she wanted to do, but she was scared of failing so she wouldn't let herself try.

So maybe the true value in my Russian woman experience was helping my American ex find the determination and courage to do those things, and showing me, by contrast, how much I miss her when I'm not around her. There is no linear path to true love...

And yes, I'm proud and happy to have a written 50-item criteria, and if more men were that obsessive, perhaps they wouldn't wind up with the wrong woman. (Women certainly have their "checklists" for men too.) The truth is, though, such a list only uses the head to inform the heart, and then you must do what your heart tells you.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

And yes, I'm proud and happy to have a written 50-item criteria, and if more men were that obsessive, perhaps they wouldn't wind up with the wrong woman. (Women certainly have their "checklists" for men too.) The truth is, though, such a list only uses the head to inform the heart, and then you must do what your heart tells you.

51. No crazies.

[TBoneTX 45,330]

So what are you going to do to get rid of this Crazy?

[rlogan 2,036]

Good Golly Miss Molly!!

You get big points for all the research you did on her personality disorder. So now you know this is a lifetime curse you would be taking on. Mine had a health issue, namely these ghastly chronic migraines. But I made the decision to marry her, and we didn't actually have the correct diagnosis until after we were married. We have to deal with this about once a month I would say, and some periods it is up to three attacks in a week like when her hormones change from pregnancy or birth. It is really awful.

It is not your obligation to deal with. This is a lifetime decision. The fact she has used sex as a weapon means she is your enemy. By the way, the people saying you are obsessed with it are just taking an opportunity to put you down or make you feel shame about ordinary behavior. If you starve a man and then make fun of him because he is suffering from hunger then what you are is a sadist. Of course you are obsessed with food when you have not eaten for days. When they criticize you for being hungry they are more like the prison guards at a concentration camp taking joy in tormenting the victim. It is abnormal not to want sex. It is abnormal to be undisturbed by sexual abuse. The mental abuse of manipulation, especially sexual, can be much worse than physical. It goes right to the core of your ego, not because you want to get your rocks off, but because you want to know that you give pleasure to someone else. That's what love makes us want to do: make them happy. So that's the thing they want to really deny to you.

As always you have the voluntary PC police trying to insist "send her back" language means you think of her as an object instead of a person. You could go through their posts too and make fun of them for the same thing. It's really easy to do but not worth the time. Just ignore them.

If you had known this about her from the beginning - a clinical personality disorder that is incurable and extremely difficult to contend with - you would not have forged ahead with engagement for marriage. You know what you are in for now. If people criticize you for sending her home, let them marry her. The questions to focus on now are how to do proceed with parting paths most civilly.

Edited July 29, 2011 by rlogan

[Phil N 4]

Good Golly Miss Molly!!

You get big points for all the research you did on her personality disorder. So now you know this is a lifetime curse you would be taking on. Mine had a health issue, namely these ghastly chronic migraines. But I made the decision to marry her, and we didn't actually have the correct diagnosis until after we were married. We have to deal with this about once a month I would say, and some periods it is up to three attacks in a week like when her hormones change from pregnancy or birth. It is really awful.

It is not your obligation to deal with. This is a lifetime decision. The fact she has used sex as a weapon means she is your enemy. By the way, the people saying you are obsessed with it are just taking an opportunity to put you down or make you feel shame about ordinary behavior. If you starve a man and then make fun of him because he is suffering from hunger then what you are is a sadist. Of course you are obsessed with food when you have not eaten for days. When they criticize you for being hungry they are more like the prison guards at a concentration camp taking joy in tormenting the victim. It is abnormal not to want sex. It is abnormal to be undisturbed by sexual abuse. The mental abuse of manipulation, especially sexual, can be much worse than physical. It goes right to the core of your ego, not because you want to get your rocks off, but because you want to know that you give pleasure to someone else. That's what love makes us want to do: make them happy. So that's the thing they want to really deny to you.

As always you have the voluntary PC police trying to insist "send her back" language means you think of her as an object instead of a person. You could go through their posts too and make fun of them for the same thing. It's really easy to do but not worth the time. Just ignore them.

If you had known this about her from the beginning - a clinical personality disorder that is incurable and extremely difficult to contend with - you would not have forged ahead with engagement for marriage. You know what you are in for now. If people criticize you for sending her home, let them marry her. The questions to focus on now are how to do proceed with parting paths most civilly.

Thank you for the voice of reason and thoughtful comments. I actually might consider going forward if she did the BPD assessment and DBT treatment, and enough time passed to where I could see her efforts were sincere and not a ploy. I had no clue about the BPD, though it is obvious in hindsight. Just reading through my first day-by-day log, there were several manufactured (by her) arguments, accusing me of saying/feeling/believing things I do not (the part where we were laughing about beaches/bitshes and out of the blue she accused me of calling her and her daughter bitcshes. And changing the "intimate time" to fully clothed on the couch cuddle time was a classic BPD "countermove" to try to put things back the way they were and regain control.

The truth is that it's very hard for me to envision a life of happiness and success with this woman, with the things I want to do in life. It would just feel like being walled in all the time, suffocating. She does have a lot of good qualities, but just thinking about being with her 24/7/365 leaves me feeling mentally and emotionally exhausted.

You are right, she is not an object, she is a human being, and so is her daughter, who is a normal 15 year old girl who loves her mother and has some understanding that her mother is a bit different. I do worry that the mother is having long-term negative psychological effects on the daughter.

My plan right now is to give things a few more days, and see if it will be possible to have a sincere conversation with her about *everything*, and to try to discuss and negotiate a course of action. If her outbursts and violent behavior continue, I will go to family court and get a restraining order to have her removed. I suppose she'd wind up in a shelter, along with her daughter. I have everything I need to do that NOW if I wanted. I am choosing not to in hopes that a better solution can be found.

I have understated the degree of attempted sexual manipulation by her by quite a bit in my posts. That was simply what caused me to hit the pause key. Some things I have read/heard about women to avoid, listed two specific HUGE red flags: 1) Trying to use rationing of sex and affection to control a man; and 2) Having double standards for herself vs. others, e.g., it's OK for her to hit me when she's angry; it's OK for her to yell at me in front of her daughter; etc. (But not for me)

I think this girl had it in her head that I was a desperate American man and she was the prize, and I had no other options. The truth is that over the last 18 months, I set aside 5 different girlfriends to be with this woman. Two were especially outstanding women I would consider a long term relationship with. And not one of these women did I ever lie to. One of the outstanding ones I lost because she asked me some point blank questions and I told her the truth. That was one year ago. The other outstanding one is a woman who has been in my life off-and-on for 2-1/2 years. I encouraged her to date others, but she refused. Instead, she chose to work on the issues (I told her exactly what they were) that kept me from committing to her. I never set out to find and marry a "Russian" woman. It was simply part of my dating pool, and that happened to be an option that materialized into something I chose to pursue. I was attracted by the unique and exotic nature of the whole thing, and the new and interesting experience that come with that package.

I also felt that I could be a great father to my Russian gal's daughter, and that we could have an amazing happy family. Her daughter is the same age, 15, my oldest daughter was when my divorce occurred. My extremely vindictive ex tried to drive me out of my children's lives, and to turn them against me, with a full-fledged parental alienation effort. I missed too much of that daughter's life between 15 and 18, and became marginalized in my children's lives in general during that time. (She is 22 now and we are very close) I suppose I thought I could create a vibrant family that my children would be excited about being around, and my children would experience me more in a setting independent of my ex and her attempted poisoning influence on them, and heal that wound of mine. It wasn't really about my ex, it was about creating the kind of vibrant, exciting family I always dreamed of, including the opportunity to have another child or two with my new wife. And we would all live happily ever after. Or so I thought. I wanted this so much, I made excuses for and overlooked warning signs, rationalizing that I could fix them once she and her daughter were here. I've had so many people tell me what an amazing positive influence I've had on their lives, just by being me, and being around them, and my way of being direct and caring at the same time. I seem to have a way of helping others see their issues and want to address them and grow past them, so I thought certainly I could do that for my new wife and daughter. It's not something I go around trying to do, or bet on, and the only people I share that gift with are people who show me they are ready for it and want it.

So now people know how/why I overlooked the issues with this woman; and now I suppose I know. I was trying to create/recreate my dream family with her, to heal my own wounds from the past. Damn, I should change careers and become a counselor. Well, that's my (self) therapeutic rant for today. That probably gives everyone a good chunk of insight into how all this happened.

This woman's BPD is probably too big a challenge for me in a marriage setting. The risk is that all my energy and happiness gets sucked out dealing with that, and the result will likely be unsatisfying, and it will drain my strength and make me unable to contribute fully and experience joy in my other relationships and areas of life. While she's here, 70 more days, or 2 more days, I'll do my best to help her, to point in productive directions, when and if she becomes willing, and as long as I don't feel unsafe or threatened. This has been an issue and created terrible problems for her in her whole adult life. In any case, I'll be coming from a different place with her, because I no longer "want" her. So we'll see what happens. I only control ME. I don't know if I'll get into a LTR with the other past girlfriend, or at least I won't rebound-rush into it. Maybe people know some nice FSU gals to hook me up with. I like 'em very tall, around 6 feet, a few inches either way, not slender and with curves, highly intelligent, feminine, Myers Briggs "xxFJ" type, and, I'm learning, absolutely *without* BPD or bipolar and such.

[rika60607 215]

Dude,

I am not sure anymore about who's got bigger issues, you or the Russian lady. It does not matter. You two do not match and no, it will never work for you two. Take care of yourself and try to find a way to get both of you out of this horrific situation with the least damage possible.

[psychasthenia 9]

Here are my answers to your post:

PhilN, you do have a need to pathologize this woman. You are continually referring to her as having a personality disorder. A personality disorder is a serious condition, which only professionals should be diagnosing. I am not offended about your diagnosing her, I am surprised. But I understand that it helps you to devalue her. It helps you provide an explanation for whatever has happened between you two. You are in no way a mental health professional, so your "exceedingly clear" diagnosis is bogus.

You are right. I did not read a lot of your earlier posts. I read the original one where you described your situation; I sympathized with you because it's got to be difficult for you. When you started discussing BPD, I started wondering about your motivations. What are you trying to accomplish by writing here? I initially thought it was because you wanted to get information from others who are more experienced in immigration matters. Over time, your interest seems to have changed dramatically. You are diagnosing this woman, on an immigration forum. Are you looking for confirmation on your diagnosis here? Do you want support? Do you want somebody to reassure you in some way?

Wow, I am amazed at what you write. You go from referring to your fiancee as "my girl" (implying caring, protection, etc) to "potential BPD" (completely devaluing and belittling her). Of course the woman from the clinic was hostile and suspicious toward you. It is not typical for people to diagnose others and then to try and convince them that they have irreparable issues.

I know of several effective programs. Why would I be pointing them to you when I do not know whether this woman does have a personality disorder? I see what you are doing as abusive. If you do not believe you can have a relationship with this woman, cut your losses. How does it help you to have her in treatment? Logistically, how would she stay in the country for this treatment? I thought you were reconnecting with your American ex. How is the Russian fiancee fitting in this situation? You sure like to complicate your life. I highly doubt that you are as naive and gullible as you portray yourself to be.

PhilN, these "BPDs" are actually people who happen to have a personality disorder. Their diagnosis is one aspect of them. Lots of them are highly successful professionally and personally, but they do struggle with certain things. Just like we all struggle with things but to a smaller degree. It's incredible how much you need to distance yourself emotionally from this women. She got under your skin in some way...

Edited July 29, 2011 by psychasthenia

[psychasthenia 9]

If you had known this about her from the beginning - a clinical personality disorder that is incurable and extremely difficult to contend with - you would not have forged ahead with engagement for marriage. You know what you are in for now. If people criticize you for sending her home, let them marry her. The questions to focus on now are how to do proceed with parting paths most civilly.

Rlogan, personality disorders are by definition clinical. I know that you have read a lot of psychology/self-help books, but that does not make you a psychologist. You make sweeping statements that are completely unfounded. There are people with BPD who have outgrown it. It happens. There are people who have BDP traits, and not the whole disorder. Treatment outcomes vary. From the poster's description, you do not know much about this woman. You know only his version of events, and it's extremely biased.

I appreciate your posts. I have read several of them; however, let mental health professionals talk about psychiatric diagnoses. The few or so books you have read - do not qualify you to speak about this area.

[rlogan 2,036]

People can be co-dependents to certain kinds of abusive or manipulative people, and if this is a pattern in your life then it will be important to understand why. I didn't understand that there were people actively hunting for me, and that they already had years of practice using their tactics on others. Manipulative personalities avoid those who look at actions instead of listening to words, who are unforgiving, and inherently suspicious of the motives of others. They have nothing to work with there. A sociopath looks for a neurotic, not another sociopath.

Fifty things on the list... hmmmm. I don't know what obsessive-compulsive disorder that would be symptomatic of. Reminds me of the old joke: I was looking for the perfect woman, and when I found her she was looking for the perfect man.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Two posts have been removed at the OP's request