Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Fandango 1,439]

I don't think you should self-diagnose. Get thee to a shrink.

[Phil N 4]

I have gotten what I need here.

It was quite the thread...

The BPD issues I will pursue further in the land of Oz. (Welcome to Oz forums and other related).

However, if anyone has more helpful suggestions for resources, or their own relevant experiences to share, please do post here or PM me.

I agree in general with the "go see a qualified psych" advice I am getting. Fiscal reality is such that I wouldn't really be able to do that until after marriage with her on my insurance plan. So I need to take my best shot at it in the meantime. I am finding some BPD materials to be very negative and gloomy, and others to be more optimistic. I'm choosing for now to go with the ones that say BPD can be managed, and improve over time, and to see where that path leads, possibly even to still marrying her. She does have many good qualities.

90% of the diagnostic material has been spot-on, and I am already seeing a difference in our interactions by using the suggestions from the Stop Walking On Eggshells book. I am sure some of the improvement is in my sincerity in interacting with her, as now I no longer feel controlled by her outbursts, and simply conduct myself in a relaxed way, accepting that the issues are about HER momentary emotional experience, and I can simply acknowledge her emotions, and validate some aspect of her subjective personal experience. And I can do this without being obligated to any course of action, and without accepting the burden or blame for her emotions onto myself. And I continue to learn...

[Fandango 1,439]

I have gotten what I need here.

It was quite the thread...

The BPD issues I will pursue further in the land of Oz. (Welcome to Oz forums and other related).

However, if anyone has more helpful suggestions for resources, or their own relevant experiences to share, please do post here or PM me.

I agree in general with the "go see a qualified psych" advice I am getting. Fiscal reality is such that I wouldn't really be able to do that until after marriage with her on my insurance plan. So I need to take my best shot at it in the meantime. I am finding some BPD materials to be very negative and gloomy, and others to be more optimistic. I'm choosing for now to go with the ones that say BPD can be managed, and improve over time, and to see where that path leads, possibly even to still marrying her. She does have many good qualities.

90% of the diagnostic material has been spot-on, and I am already seeing a difference in our interactions by using the suggestions from the Stop Walking On Eggshells book. I am sure some of the improvement is in my sincerity in interacting with her, as now I no longer feel controlled by her outbursts, and simply conduct myself in a relaxed way, accepting that the issues are about HER momentary emotional experience, and I can simply acknowledge her emotions, and validate some aspect of her subjective personal experience. And I can do this without being obligated to any course of action, and without accepting the burden or blame for her emotions onto myself. And I continue to learn...

The $200 you'd spend to see a shrink could save you tens of thousands in the long run. Don't be penny wise and dollar foolish, this is your life we're talking about.

[Phil N 4]

The $200 you'd spend to see a shrink could save you tens of thousands in the long run. Don't be penny wise and dollar foolish, this is your life we're talking about.

You know, you're probably right. Part of my reluctance is based on the low quality of the mental health "professionals" I interacted with during my family court hell and the bias and preconceived agendas. Two absolute incompetent idiots, one half-competent spineless enabler, one competent, and one highly competent. The two PhD's were at both ends of the scale, idiot, and highly competent.

At least one person trained by Dr. Marsha Linehan, a world-recognized expert in BPD, is in my city, and Dr. Linehan's operation at the University of Washington is also feasible for us to get to on a regular basis. So I will at least contact the one in my city.

Certainly you're correct that $200 to look further into this would be money well spent. And if she refuses to even check this out with me, I suppose I would have my answer right there about the future of a marital relationship.

[Phil N 4]

At this point, I haven't married her, and I am losing optimism that any kind of normal relationship would be possible with her. So, marriage is looking *very* unlikely at this point. I am pretty darn close to ready to send her home.

A couple days ago, I went out to have a few drinks with friends, against her wishes. It's important to me to keep contact with friends, lest I get sucked into her BPD "alternate reality" and lose touch with my own sense of reality. Anyway, when I came home later that evening, she had dumped garbage in my bed under the covers, and dumped a bowl of borscht (Russian soup, red in color, made with tomatoes and beets) in my bed on my pillow.

She will not even have a conversation with me the last two days, just says angry things in Russian. And of course she stays in the room with her daughter.

Based on other things she has said, I do not believe she will go home, even if I changed her ticket. The return date of her round trip tickets is early October. I believe she will choose to stay in the USA as an illegal. And, absent her willingness to have an English discussion with me, it is not possible to determine for sure what her plans are or would be. So I don't see any point in changing tickets just now. I will attempt to have conversations with her, to sort out plans. Wish me luck.

I was 5 days away from marrying this woman. Then she pulled one of those BPD "countermoves" to reverse an agreement we had made, and try to put herself back in control. Thank God she did. I didn't accept her countermove and postponed the wedding.

What are some of my options for getting her out of my house? Shelters? Possibly I could pay a friend with an extra room to take them in for a while. I don't want to leave her in a bad situation, but my mental health and safety are important too.

She doesn't seem to have any friends that feel strongly enough about her to take her; I would pay for tickets for her to go stay with Olga in Miami or Marina in Los Angeles, but apparently they are more acquaintances than truly friends. (This is consistent with BPD) Also, her teenage daughter is here with her. So I have a genuine mess on my hands.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Well, you need to check the tenancy laws where you live. Call the local sheriff's office and ask them what you need to do to legally get her out of your residence. You can offer to put her up in a hotel for a while but unless she willingly leaves your house you might have to formally evict her.

If you offer to put her up someplace and move her ticket back home up to an earlier date and she refuses then I don't see it ending pleasantly (not that it has been pleasant thus far).

[Golden Gate 530]

To be sure, there have been some wonderful times mixed in with the difficulties. I just haven't written about the wonderful times because they're not a difficulty I need help with. Maybe a few more weeks of helping her adjust and being sensitive will help put things into balance and result in happier ongoing relations, and a plan for coping with BPD issues.

Wish me luck and pray for me as I do my best to work through this.

I think it is best to be cautious or not to rationalize about being able to cope with BPD issues. It is hard to treat even by the psychological community. People with BPD may not be able to comprehend boundaries and therefore it can be hard to trust them. They seek attention in different forms, kind of like keeping you on a leash. This is something they have a hard time understanding that they are doing, because there are deep-seated issues they can not address because it is too painful. I believe this is a problem that you might find in someone who was sexually abused or who was somehow horribly treated as a child. My brother was married to one for 16 years and suddenly found himself cheated on via the internet, led on for a year that she wasn't seeing this other guy anymore, divorced, losing his house to this other guy who basically moved into his family's life, even coaching his son's football team and acting like my brother was some sort of second fiddle to his own sons, and he totally went pretty much bankrupt as she demanded a large sum for child support. Now, her attitude is like - I don't think I can be with any one guy all my life, including her current one - she actually told me this. She is extremely smart, is a pharmacist and has her Master's Degree. She knows how to get what she wants and before she did this to my brother, I loved her a lot. I thought she was such a good-hearted, generous person. But, she is screwed up. She even invited my brother to go to the Caribbean with her, instead of her fiance (who she was supposed to marry on that trip, but she chickened out, even though she still lives with the man.) Just trying to give you some idea what BPD can do to others.

Ok,just read your later post. Not sure how to advise you on that.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Golden Gate

[Phil N 4]

I think it is best to be cautious or not to rationalize about being able to cope with BPD issues. It is hard to treat even by the psychological community. People with BPD may not be able to comprehend boundaries and therefore it can be hard to trust them. They seek attention in different forms, kind of like keeping you on a leash. This is something they have a hard time understanding that they are doing, because there are deep-seated issues they can not address because it is too painful. I believe this is a problem that you might find in someone who was sexually abused or who was somehow horribly treated as a child. My brother was married to one for 16 years and suddenly found himself cheated on via the internet, led on for a year that she wasn't seeing this other guy anymore, divorced, losing his house to this other guy who basically moved into his family's life, even coaching his son's football team and acting like my brother was some sort of second fiddle to his own sons, and he totally went pretty much bankrupt as she demanded a large sum for child support. Now, her attitude is like - I don't think I can be with any one guy all my life, including her current one - she actually told me this. She is extremely smart, is a pharmacist and has her Master's Degree. She knows how to get what she wants and before she did this to my brother, I loved her a lot. I thought she was such a good-hearted, generous person. But, she is screwed up. She even invited my brother to go to the Caribbean with her, instead of her fiance (who she was supposed to marry on that trip, but she chickened out, even though she still lives with the man.) Just trying to give you some idea what BPD can do to others.

Ok,just read your later post. Not sure how to advise you on that.

Wow, that is *quite* a BPD story. Yes, I have felt my girl was trying to keep me on a leash, using affection and sex as the controlling mechanism. I have seen some of her dark side, and I am worried about what she might be capable of. Now I am questioning her role in past relationships, and not seeing her as sympathetically. It also happens I have a close friend who was involved with a BPD woman for 7 years and it made hamburger of his life, while he tried in vain to please her every whim. I didn't know his ex was BPD, I just told him to reclaim his balls from her, and get back on his own path instead of orbiting around her, and to take responsibility for his own choices instead of blaming his sick ex-partner. He gives me all kinds of credit for helping him pull his head out, but all I did was point out things that were obvious to an outsider. Which shows the power that BPD's have at sucking partners into their version of reality. So I'm going to make sure I don't get sucked into my BPD girl's warped version of reality. After all, my own reality is warped enough as it is, and I like it just fine. I have never claimed to be pure and innocent and blameless; I have plenty of issues of my own, and it takes nearly all my time and attention to project *my* facade of normalcy ;-)

[Phil N 4]

OK, so I have confronted my girl with my belief that she is dealing with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

Since she has been refusing to speak to me in English the last 2 days, I had to do it via email.

I told her that even though I know she hates labels, sometimes they can be useful because they point out a course of action to us.

Then I told her that the one I believe applies is BPD, and mentioned that there is now a therapy that is considered helpful, Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and copied in a summary of what DBT training covers, since DBT seems to me like a group therapy "training class", and since she is an excellent student, this class might be useful. Then I included some links to a NYT article on Dr. Marsha Linehan, the originator of DBT, who only a month ago "came out" as a BPD sufferer herself. Which totally explains the professional and academic energy Linehan put into developing treatment for BPD. And also I included a couple links to articles of female BPD sufferers telling their stories. I also included some detailed articles about traits and behaviors, as experienced by others around the BPD.

I felt like I had nothing to lose by doing this, so I went ahead, trying to balance matter-of-fact information with sensitivity. Whether the right or wrong thing to do, it is done, and I will see where it goes. BPD literature generally says don't confront the BPD, with your amateur diagnosis, but makes a couple of exceptions for special circumstances. I felt this was one of those circumstances.

FYI, at this point, my feelings towards my girl are more concern for her and her daughter's well being, and my romantic and sexual interest in her has waned. I don't feel good when I'm around her, and mostly what I feel around her are feelings of missing past great girlfriends I routinely had great times with. My girl is a good woman in many, many ways and I do not want to demonize her in any way.

[san diego 407]

OK, so I have confronted my girl with my belief that she is dealing with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

Since she has been refusing to speak to me in English the last 2 days, I had to do it via email.

I told her that even though I know she hates labels, sometimes they can be useful because they point out a course of action to us.

Then I told her that the one I believe applies is BPD, and mentioned that there is now a therapy that is considered helpful, Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and copied in a summary of what DBT training covers, since DBT seems to me like a group therapy "training class", and since she is an excellent student, this class might be useful. Then I included some links to a NYT article on Dr. Marsha Linehan, the originator of DBT, who only a month ago "came out" as a BPD sufferer herself. Which totally explains the professional and academic energy Linehan put into developing treatment for BPD. And also I included a couple links to articles of female BPD sufferers telling their stories. I also included some detailed articles about traits and behaviors, as experienced by others around the BPD.

I felt like I had nothing to lose by doing this, so I went ahead, trying to balance matter-of-fact information with sensitivity. Whether the right or wrong thing to do, it is done, and I will see where it goes. BPD literature generally says don't confront the BPD, with your amateur diagnosis, but makes a couple of exceptions for special circumstances. I felt this was one of those circumstances.

FYI, at this point, my feelings towards my girl are more concern for her and her daughter's well being, and my romantic and sexual interest in her has waned. I don't feel good when I'm around her, and mostly what I feel around her are feelings of missing past great girlfriends I routinely had great times with. My girl is a good woman in many, many ways and I do not want to demonize her in any way.

Best of luck to you!

[Phil N 4]

Last night she got more verbally abusive, threatening, and physically violent.

Verbal abuse was the usual F--- You, with body language, PLUS, threats that she will do bad things to me, I will not survive, tonight will be my last, I have no idea what she is capable of, etc.

As I was standing near her *attempting* to have a discussion with her, asking what groceries she would like me to pick up at the store, she picked up and brandished a wine bottle, over her head, as if she was going to hit me with it. She looked a little too serious waving that around, so after about 5 seconds, I moved out of range, as I truly do NOT know what she is capable of. I went into the dining room and sat at the table there. She continued cursing loudly in Russian at me.

I turned on the video camera on my smart phone, as I sat there, and laid it on the table. She walked by, and attempted to grab my phone. I managed to grab it at the same time. FYI, she is a large woman, approximately 6 feet tall and maybe 180 lbs. I'm 5'10 and 185. But, I lift weights and am about 5 times stronger, so I wound up winning that 1-second tug of war over my phone. She walked away to the back porch to smoke.

Later that night, after I had gone to bed, around 1 am, she was staying in her daughters room, as she had been. I had locked my door, as I did not feel safe. I had given her the key weeks ago, as it was to be OUR room. I heard the doorknob being tested, and discovery that it was locked. I also had placed some boxes in front of my door so there would be noise and I would be alerted if she entered, waking me up if sleeping.

I heard my door being unlocked, and then she pushed it open, hitting the boxes. I jumped up and went to the door and asked her what she wanted, if there was something I could get for her, or if she was available to talk. She gave me an evil look, and had something in one hand, like a green squeeze tube or bag. Maybe she just wanted her toothbrush from the bathroom. But, I don't know why she didn't simply knock. A friend of mine told me it was a power/defiance need on her part. Anyway, she said it was a small thing, briefly walked into my room, then turned around and walked out. I followed, and she asked if I was recording. I told her no, it was not necessary, and she punched me in the shoulder. It was not painful, more like amusing. It was her just trying to assert her "right" to strike me physically.

A few minutes later, I knocked on her door, to see if perhaps we could talk, since there is a lot to talk about. She opened the door, brandishing a small table lamp as if she was going to hit me with it. I asked her when she would be available to talk calmly, perhaps tomorrow. She spat a few more F--- You's, and assorted cursing in Russian for the benefit of her daughter. She stepped out of the room, stepped towards me quickly, and struck me in the crotch with an underhand blow with her right hand. The blow to my crotch got my attention, and was on target, and not something I'd care to have done a lot, but as she was not able to strike with leverage and force, it didn't leave me doubled over in pain or anything like that. But, it escalated the physical violence on her part to a whole new level. Then she made motions as if she had a ####### and was masturbating, apparently trying to convey that's what I could go do.

In the interest of full disclosure, I had resumed spending time with an old girlfriend a couple days before, and she knew about this, since I did not go to great lengths to hide it. So yes, I am guilty of giving her something to be angry about. A pure and innocent man I am not. If she withholds affection and intimacy there are other places I can get that. One would logically think that if she withholds herself from me, why would she care if I seek that elsewhere? Of course, I know that is not how the female mind thinks, and that this woman thinks she owns me, even if there is no intimacy in our relationship.

Of course, she behaved in similar ways over other things that were contrived issues created by her to control the situation, so this latest issue is only different in that there was actual bad behavior on my part.

Also, I noticed that a week ago, my fiance had again been active on the Russian women dating site where we met. So, she's looking again.

I'm ready to send her back already, send her anywhere, AWAY from me and my house, but absent her willingness to have an actual discussion, I can't make any plans.

I do have enough to go get a domestic violence restraining order, but I am trying to find her a place to stay until a return flight home can be arranged (sooner than the early October return flight) or until the visa expires and she decides to stay illegally and is no longer my problem. Also, the daughter is a good kid, just caught in the middle of a mess. Of course, marriage is pretty much out of the question.

The part that was disappointing is that she made sure her daughter was right by her side for all her raging and blowups, and she constantly says things in Russian to her daughter, in my presence, which are disparaging comments about me, and how awful I am, trying to mock me and insult me. It has to be a warping experience for the daughter.

So, would SafePlace or some other shelter take her? Should I get a restraining order to get her out of my house?

My past girlfriend has also offered to move in (I miss her and expect to get back together with her when this mess is done) and make sure this woman minds her P's and Q's at my house. This sounds appealing, to have her move in, but I am also worried this might make things much, much worse and more dangerous.

Which daytime trash talk show would this be best for? We're a little high end for Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, and nobody's pregnant.

I am sharing this train-wreck as a cautionary tale for all who might experience similar things. It is, of course, 100% my fault for ignoring signs and bringing this woman here in the first place. I had the good fortune of never being in a relationship with a BPD, NPD, etc. before, so I just assumed my girl was just much more emotional than the average woman. Now I am getting a crash course in BPD.

[Tanya and Barry 59]

Phil N, I'm a Russian guy (it's Victor writing) and I can tell - it's nothing in your situation about cultural differences. It's no any national traditions in Russia/Ukraine to sleep separately till marriage. I also would tell that girl sleeping with her teenage girl also pretty unusual in Russia/Ukraine (it's ok for a little child, but for teenage...). It's all seems personal behaviour, so my advice - don't try to figure if it's normal for Ukrainian girl, think only about personality of your fiancee and your relationship. I would tell from your story that her behaviour seems very strange for me as for a Russian guy.

Yep, definately not normal. Men are to quick to ascribe things to cultural differences. I fear you are in a bit of trouble, Phil. And odds are it will only get worse...

[Tanya and Barry 59]

Well, I just read your last post. Things are definatley worse... How close are you from your 90 days being up?

[Phil N 4]

The 90 days ends the first week of October. It has been just over 3 weeks so far.

[Nina~ 431]

You should by no means stay in the house alone with her. She clearly seems deranged. If your fiance claims abuse, the police will most likely believe her and her daughter, not you. Ask your gf if you can crash at her place for a little while till you can get your fiancee out of the house. If you have grounds to get a restraining order against her, do it to protect yourself.

In the meantime, check your local tenancy laws and talk to your local police department on how to remove her from your house. The police can assist her in getting to a shelter. At this point, you need to concentrate on your well-being more than your fiance or her daughter.