Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[rlogan 2,036]

You asked, so I am responding. But it was a rhetorical question.

The point of this thread, for me anyway, is to share the story, for the collective good, and get helpful ideas from others who have relevant information and perspective. So you've made your point that you think I have codependent tendencies. That's great, except that it doesn't really point that well to anything clear and specific and actionable.

Speaks for itself. There is no exception to the principle that admission of the problem is the first and by far the most important step to recovery. You do not want to recover. No problem. This is for others reading the drama.

Should I read or listen to a John Bradshaw book again? Or maybe reread everything Melodie Beattie ever wrote? Go attend ACOA meetings?

Codependency is a big, big subject, with lots of different flavors and subcategories and details and specifics.

The first part is the "I already know everything" answer, contradicting what you just wrote above. But this is logical to the codependent because it denies they have a problem, which is the most important thing to do.

The second part I just said myself in the post you are now replying to. But you used it as a form of denial/invalidation. I used it as a means of getting on the road to recovery.

I know your opinion, "aha, he's one of THOSE!!" and so does the everyone else reading the thread...

That's fine, toss me into the "Not Normal" group and call it a day...

Remember the Mel Brooks movie, Young Frankenstein? Igor goes to the brain depository, accidentally drops the glass jar containing the brain he wanted on the floor, breaking and destroying it. Then he grabs a different brain-in-a-jar off the shelf, with the label "Abnormal" on the jar, and that's the brain the monster winds up getting. So yeah, I'm sure that's me, "Abbie Normal", and everyone else is simply "Normal". Gotta go, my organ donation forms just came up on the printer, gotta sign them and send them off.

These are all called "playing the victim", and you do it in many other places: even a pre-emptive comment about people "flaming away" as if these were personal attacks. I have the same main issues you do so I guess I am flaming myself when I repeatedly call attention to my own background. I am "one of those". How hurtful and mean to say such things about myself!

The other thing you are doing is flattery for those who cooperate with your thread management, which is mainly to keep the attention on the leper-reptiles you are constantly getting mixed up with, instead of your own problem. One of the surprising things to onlookers is how manipulative codependents are. A casual glance says that they are purely victims. But some say it is no better than narcissism. In fact I think Beattie says this if I remember correctly. There's opportunity to play the victim with that statement, of course, but what she means is that the codependent is very skilled in the same kinds of manipulation that the narcissist is.

It doesn't work on me Phil. I know you are not listening of course, but there is value here for others.

I believe my primary challenges now are in areas other than codependency.

Plain as day, yes. That is what the codependent will say. Again, through your background you know this is what the alcoholic says: it is everyone else that has the problem, not the alcoholic. The bartender or any other enabler though - wow, those are wise and wonderful people.

The long lecture on how being a businessman forces you to be codependent is like looking at myself ten years ago. Yes, yes of course it is all rational and logical why the codependent assumes responsibility for other people's problems. My God, one of the definitions of codependency is this exact thing: The codependent convinces himself they are his problems and it is impossible to dissuade him. I did it in the workplace too and learned how to stop doing it. I'm a businessman, humble as it may be in semi-retirement, and I see how important it is to fix my codependency issues instead of convincing myself that codependency the most profitable thing for me to do.

If I get blown up playing with dynamite, at least I can say while I was alive, I LIVED... And it was never boring.

This is called rationalization.

There are an infinity of ways to "live" with huge adrenalyn rushes that are not destructive to your welfare, or at least way less so. I know from your Alcohol background they will have discussed this very thing. This is lost on you, but valuable to others in seeing this. For all the noise about studying everyone else's problems in minute clinical detail - there is a fanatical devotion to avoiding your own.

The codependency literature says the codependent will be saying he/she is "guilty" of "caring too much", "giving too much", etc. The martyr complex. I did not mention before when you were describing the ideal girl that you wanted - it was right out of the codependency checklist where the codependent expects others to martyr themselves to him, and is resentful when that does not happen.

As the quote goes, "If you don't piss off an occasional person, you're playing it much too safe." By their very nature, international relationships and marriage are risky business. Of course, family court being what it is, almost ANY marriage is risky business for a man these days.

This is called diversion, coupled with minimization. Life is risky, so just ignore me here lighting this fuse on the nuclear bomb.

"Normal" is a very subjective concept. And I disagree with your false dichotomy of Normal/Not Normal.

This is called "invalidation", but you are not doing a very good job of it. We're just going down the checklist of all the things codependents do.

One of the defense mechanisms manipulators also use when I take them on is to say I accuse everyone and everything of being manipulative. Well, no, I am most attracted to discussions where there is manipulation or some other personality disorder issue. I don't get involved in things that do not interest me. Sort of like accusing the emergency room doctor of seeing medical problems in everyone. Well, duh - he's in the emergency room. That is where he decided to work.

Everyone has issues and challenges. That's normal.

Minimization and invalidation again, via a logical fallacy: Everyone has problems. So I am normal. Therefore I do not have a problem with codependency.

Beautiful! I realize this is perfectly rational to you because the codependent's brain works backwards: I do not have a problem. So no matter how irrational my argument is, it is "correct" so long as the "conclusion" is that I do not have codependency issues.

For me, it is very easy to admit codependency issues, and I view it as a source of strength and not weakness. Authors differ on this point: some say that the codependent has self-esteem issues, but I am not so sure. All of them agree we are "people pleasers", destroying ourselves to make up for real or perceived deficiencies in others.

[nane1104 146]

This question has been asked a couple times in different ways, so I'll respond here.

It's difficult to tell if the K-1 process will be successful. When we were on opposite sides of the ocean, my ex-fiancee did not prove herself as a woman worth totally stopping my local dating life for. A woman can "disappear" into thin air at any moment. On my second visit, she again failed to show me that she was worth giving up my local dating life. And how do I KNOW what she was or wasn't doing herself? She seemed to be a woman with many secrets.

I love women, and enjoy their company. It has been normal for me the last two years to have a dating rotation of 1-5 women at any given time. When the number was more than 1, the women knew I was not exclusive with them. When the number was 1, and it was exclusive, I kept to that. I lost a great woman last summer because I was honest with her about my situation of being engaged. All I ever told her was let's have fun and see where it leads. She wanted more serious and sooner. In another 2-3 months, possibly I would have broken off the engagement and chosen to be with her.

My ex-fiance kept playing games with me instead of showing me that I was her man and she was my woman. I would notice that she was active on the dating site where we met. Each time I saw that, I felt it gave me permission to continue my local dating life. She was not as reliable as I would have liked with her communication, and not as energetic and motivated to make regular Skype chats happen. After giving her a start time "range" of 30 minutes, If I was even a few minutes late for the earliest start time, she would have a hissy fit. (Another BPD trait, BTW) After my second visit to see her, she dropped off the grid and did not communicate with me for 11 days. I should have broken it off right then. I didn't because I felt I had too much invested. Besides, the K-1 petition approval had already been received, and, as I understood it, that used up one of my two lifetime "bullets" right there, so I may as well go ahead and roll the dice and give her a chance to be the woman she promises she'll be once she comes to my country.

I gave my ex-fiancee every opportunity to show that she was my woman, and that she was here because she loved me and wanted to build a life together. Instead she played games of withholding herself and acting like hers was made of gold and lined with diamonds, and creating arguments out of thin air as an excuse to not move into my bedroom (and make it ours) and to not sleep in the same bed with me. She drove me away. She proved that I was right to keep options open. I told her repeatedly, in person, and in email, do not play games in the area of intimacy with a man with options, and I am a man with options. She repeatedly chose to ignore this. Having abundance in my life in the area of dating helped me have the strength to not get sucked into her games out of emotional and sexual neediness and desperation. You can call it my defense mechanism, or you can call me a #######, or whatever you want. My ex-fiancee tried to manipulate the wrong man. Her games also showed that she neither loved me nor respected me. She thought I was a desperate American man, without options, an easy mark for her games.

Primarily, I am guilty of ignoring the huge red flags with my ex-fiancee and bringing her over anyway. I should have saved my resources for a much higher quality woman. I gave her credit and value for qualities she did not possess. Having other options helped keep me from doing something even more stupid and marrying her.

A couple lessons, in hindsight:

1) If, especially after becoming engaged, she doesn't make me feel like being exclusive with her and devoting all attention to her, and that she is doing the same for ME, then STOP immediately! Do not file K-1! Do not buy airline tickets! Do not pass GO! Cut losses immediately!

2) Cultural differences are never an excuse for ignoring red flags.

OK everyone, flame away on that!

Reading this makes me wonder who played whom...this is becoming the saddest soap stuff I have come across in a long time. Actually, more tragedy than soap but sad for sure...

I don't think you want any honest input or advice or whatever you claim you are looking for. Instead, whenever the situation with this woman seemed to have calmed down, you come with a new post about more and more intimate details about your relationships and your life.

rlogan...I know you mean well, I have followed your story a little bit too but I honestly think you are wasting a lot of time and energy here...

[psychasthenia 9]

Don't you think RLogan and I should at least LIVE together first before he diagnoses me?

Oh, and sure I *like* it.

RLogan, can you come over for a couple months so you we can share some quality time mutually diagnosing each other?

PhilN, you don't need to live with someone in order to diagnose them . But I do think that you do need to interact with the person over a period of time before making a diagnosis.

Rlogan, PhilN is not ready to hear everything you write. The more you try to convince him of his problems, the more he will disagree. Also, sometimes insight is not even necessary for change.

[DeeDee&Sam 68]

PhilN, you don't need to live with someone in order to diagnose them . But I do think that you do need to interact with the person over a period of time before making a diagnosis.

Rlogan, PhilN is not ready to hear everything you write. The more you try to convince him of his problems, the more he will disagree. Also, sometimes insight is not even necessary for change.

amen

[rlogan 2,036]

Rlogan, PhilN is not ready to hear everything you write. The more you try to convince him of his problems, the more he will disagree. Also, sometimes insight is not even necessary for change.

That is why I wrote this:

You do not want to recover. No problem. This is for others reading the drama.

and this:

I know you are not listening of course, but there is value here for others.

This is not the only place I have said so - at least three times then. So I have a question for you: If I say something at least three times, what is it that you are trying to do by saying the same thing back to me as if I had never said it?

[psychasthenia 9]

This is not the only place I have said so - at least three times then. So I have a question for you: If I say something at least three times, what is it that you are trying to do by saying the same thing back to me as if I had never said it?

Honestly, I did not read your posts entirely, so I missed those statements However, although you said that he was not ready to change, you insisted on showing him that he may have co-dependency issues. I don't think that helps him much.

I am guilty of this myself in my personal and professional life. I see the problems and I think I can help. But it's premature and it backfires. I'm still learning how to use my knowledge in such a way that it's actually helpful.

Edited August 26, 2011 by psychasthenia

[Dan and Judy 614]

Well Phil, When she found out that other guy would help her with the legal stuff she dumped us like cold greasy fries.

one night we were guzzling vodka and sharing our innermost thoughts and cuddling. In the morning when we woke we was alone nuzzling the empty bottle of vodka. She was no where to

be found. Just an empty vodka bottle and three large bags of chips with nothing but the crumbs. Thats all we have to remember em by. We are crushed but it was worth every minute

of it.

So Phil, Our work is done here, time to go our separate ways. Good luck

If we was a little more musically inclined we could write a country hit.

"Just an empty vodka bottle and three large bags of chips with nothin but the crumbs"

I think it has a ring to it.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Dan and Judy

[Dan and Judy 614]

Ha you psychiatry guys. You've been so busy with the co dependency stuff you didn't even realize we have a split personality. Don't feel bad we pass for normal all the time. Some of us

are Co dependent some of us aint. Some of our fathers were alcoholics and some of em wernt. We have rescuers and complainers. One is just a ######. yeah really a girl. We like to abuse ourselves

sometimes. We have twins, the older one is a frotteurist and the younger one has IBS, boy does that make for some embarrasing moments. While you may not have been barking up the

wrong tree, I don't think you realized how many trees we are in. :dance:

[rlogan 2,036]

Honestly, I did not read your posts entirely, so I missed those statements

No sense in apologizing, eh? I just proved you couldn't possibly be reading what I've written.

So as a "professional" you give people "advice" without even listening to what they are saying? This isn't the first time either. I already pointed out where you have done this before. As I stated then, you have some issue with me that has nothing to do with what I write because you aren't even reading it.

But talk about hilarious - after being proven wrong with at least three instances of saying this is not for Phil, but instead for others looking on, you go right back to insisting the same thing:

However, although you said that he was not ready to change, you insisted on showing him that he may have co-dependency issues. I don't think that helps him much.

Repeating something just proven to be wrong does not make it right. What part of this is not for Phil do you fail to understand?

I am guilty of this myself in my personal and professional life. I see the problems and I think I can help. But it's premature and it backfires. I'm still learning how to use my knowledge in such a way that it's actually helpful.

Unlike with Phil, interacting with you does not have value to others looking on. It is just an annoyance to deal with people who do not read what you write and pretend you said things you didn't or did not say things that you did. Then repeats the false claim as if it magically became true!

So therefore you are on ignore. You can go ahead now and do replies to me, repeating what I say as if it had not been said, and I'm not going to be responding. No animosity here. It's just the best thing to do when someone has proven themselves as you have: you have some issue with me, and it doesn't have anything at all to do with what I write.

[Darnell 8,478]

Checking in at post #339. Where's the beer? Maybe it's time to get out for a nice foot massage, relieve some of this tension I feel from reading this stuff.

Phil - I gotta admire you for the backbone - our buddy mcat had none.

[Phil N 4]

Well Phil, When she found out that other guy would help her with the legal stuff she dumped us like cold greasy fries.

one night we were guzzling vodka and sharing our innermost thoughts and cuddling. In the morning when we woke we was alone nuzzling the empty bottle of vodka. She was no where to be found. Just an empty vodka bottle and three large bags of chips with nothing but the crumbs. Thats all we have to remember em by. We are crushed but it was worth every minute of it.

So Phil, Our work is done here, time to go our separate ways. Good luck

If we was a little more musically inclined we could write a country hit. "Just an empty vodka bottle and three large bags of chips with nothin but the crumbs"

I think it has a ring to it.

Darnit, while you're working on the country song, could you at least get the storyline correct? If you read my posts, she was removed from my residence by sheriff's deputies, via a domestic violence protection order. Do you not actually read these things?

I do think the line about "dumped like cold greasy fries" has definite potential for a country song, though. Also, there was next to zero cuddling the whole time she was here. There was a fair amount of guzzling vodka and sharing innermost thoughts, though. So you are at least partly correct. Now, it was really scary earlier when you were making up future storylines that almost sounded plausible, and were based on correct sequence of events. You are slipping, man. Can you raise your game a notch here? I mean, I understand there is such a thing as artistic license, but we gotta have standards somewhere, right?

[Phil N 4]

Honestly, I did not read your posts entirely, so I missed those statements However, although you said that he was not ready to change, you insisted on showing him that he may have co-dependency issues. I don't think that helps him much.

I am guilty of this myself in my personal and professional life. I see the problems and I think I can help. But it's premature and it backfires. I'm still learning how to use my knowledge in such a way that it's actually helpful.

RLogan's hysteria over my perceived codependency issues stopped being useful after the first post. (I suppose I'm labeling and invalidating or whatever there, but that's how I see it.) I can totally relate to your last paragraph about seeing others' problems and feeling like we have knowledge that can help, and jumping in prematurely and having it backfire. Often the real truth about what is happening is several levels deep, and the information people share publicly, or in the first stages of getting to know them is incomplete. Then they start telling us the whole, uncensored story over time. There's a lot that simply can't be shared effectively in this forum. Normally I won't expend the effort to tell someone what I think their problems are and what they need to do about it, unless they show me in some way that they are ready and open to hear this. Otherwise, it's a waste of my time and attention as well as theirs, and annoys them. That old saying about trying to teach algebra to a pig comes to mind. Obviously my ex-fiancee was not ready to have the BPD discussion with me. I chose to attempt to have it anyway because I felt her BPD-like behaviors would have to be acknowledged and diagnosed and therapy underway for me to even consider continuing the relationship. You've read my less-than-stellar results on that here...

But, under the circumstances, I felt I had no real alternative but to press ahead. Of course, she then "agreed" to do a BPD assessment "after we are married". This agreement alternated with "I'll go if you go in for one at the same time too". The version she told in court was the "I'll go if you go in at the same time and get one too", because apparently she felt the "after we are married" version would sound manipulative if she told it in court.

[Phil N 4]

Checking in at post #339. Where's the beer? Maybe it's time to get out for a nice foot massage, relieve some of this tension I feel from reading this stuff.

Phil - I gotta admire you for the backbone - our buddy mcat had none.

I appreciate the kind words. My goal was to NOT wind up being a victim.

Basically, my standard was that until she made me feel that she was truly my woman, and I was her man, there was no way I was going to marry her. So the marry-me-or-I-won't-even-sleep-in-same-bed-as-you tactic pushed me way a lot further away.

I read several stories on here and elsewhere from men who were in a very, very unfortunate position.

The one thing I did glean from all this was to NOT marry the woman until you are absolutely certain, because once you marry her, she will then have the legal ability to make your life a living hell, courtesy of the delightful and lovely USA family court system and domestic violence industry.

And it was hard to find any story where the woman *pressured* the man for a quick marriage and things turned out well. I still don't think I've read any.

Actually, the same is true for a man on a K-1 Visa pressuring his female fiancee to marry him quickly. There were plenty of horror stories on that side too.

So I think the rule would be, if a fiance/ee pressures you for a quick marriage, RUN, don't walk, in the opposite direction. Marrying quickly by mutual desire, based on a solid relationship, is a different thing.

My ex-fiancee telegraphed large parts of her agenda by things she said in heated moments, and by the overall way she treated me. I do think plan A was to marry me and stay with me for a while, but to have me "under her heel", and she believed I would give in to her withholding tactics. I think the DV/VAWA/family court assault was plan B, if I wasn't minding my P's and Q's as a husband and got out of line. There was an article I posted a link to earlier about whether BPD/NPD tactics are premeditated. The short answer was that BPD's dont really have a step-by-step global domination plan, and largely make things up as they go along, but have a lot of skill at improvising.

Once she realized I probably wasn't going to marry her, she quickly became "all about the money". That was very interesting. I may post a couple brief accounts of that here in the future.

It seems a lot of the so-called "protections" for women have the effect of keeping American men from marrying foreign women, by creating risks that are too high for the man. I suppose you could say this about marriage in general these days; the risks are just even higher when marrying a foreign woman. When the other guy, whose story I posted, told me he had been ordered to pay $2500 per month spousal support to a woman he was married to for only 6 months, that was extremely scary. His story was so parallel to mine, with the primary difference being that I didn't marry the woman. He is pretty sure his gal is either BPD or NPD also.

I wish, on a K-1 visa:

The marry-or-go-back-home period was much longer, at least 6 months;

The K-1 beneficiary could immediately get drivers license, permission to work, etc., without requiring marriage first, for the duration of the K-1.

I'm sure there are pros and cons to these ideas.

I plan to periodically post updates here. Occasionally I may also post snippets of past events that are part of the story, which have not been shared here. At this point, my objective is to share my story, for others to see a complete start-to-finish picture, and decide if any elements of their evolving story have things in common with mine.

[Phil N 4]

INTERESTING NUMBERS:

Days at my house: About 35

Times she slept in my bed with me: 8-10

Times we cuddled and talked in bed together: 0

Intimate relations times: about 5

Times we watched movies/TV together in bed: 0

Times we watched movies together in Theater room: 1

Times we talked into the wee hours of the morning over drinks, outside on the deck: about 6 or 7

Times we ate meals together: About half the time

Times she prepared meals for me: Most of the time

Times she did my laundry for me: 1

Russian language lessons she gave me: 0 (She gave me 1 in her country)

Times she allowed her teenage daughter out to meet new friends: 1

Times she allowed her teenage daughter out to sports camp or workshop activities: 1 (She/they bailed on 2nd day of a sports camp)

Edited August 29, 2011 by Phil N

[Dan and Judy 614]

Darnit, while you're working on the country song, could you at least get the storyline correct? If you read my posts, she was removed from my residence by sheriff's deputies, via a domestic violence protection order. Do you not actually read these things?

I do think the line about "dumped like cold greasy fries" has definite potential for a country song, though. Also, there was next to zero cuddling the whole time she was here. There was a fair amount of guzzling vodka and sharing innermost thoughts, though. So you are at least partly correct. Now, it was really scary earlier when you were making up future storylines that almost sounded plausible, and were based on correct sequence of events. You are slipping, man. Can you raise your game a notch here? I mean, I understand there is such a thing as artistic license, but we gotta have standards somewhere, right?

a

Sorry Phil, that was us.

we could not stand the thought of letting her go, the fantasy of being bribed by sex was too much for us. Ha!!! we even let her drive. We gave the daughter 2 big bags of chips and a big gulp.

We was willing to share her with you but she says you are yesterdays news. She says Adios. dont you think thats cute of her to say Adios Ha its not like she is mexican or something.

She did say she might consider doing a little hanky panky again If you are ready to get serious about this wedding thing. It is not too late, you can drop the protective order and post on this

thread that you have come to your senses. and we will bring her back only slightly worse for the wear and tear. (we are huge)

She has made it clear that she will not tolerate any more of your #######. She has decided that you are sumacepshe and she wants you to get treated for it. I dont know what it is or how to spell it but we love it when she speaks russian to us. We do hope that whatever it is we don't catch it.

Just remember Phil until you are married she will only speak russian to us

a