Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[rlogan 2,036]

I just brushed up on some codependency articles. Google them, Phil. It's pretty clearly the right place to be looking instead of fixating on her problems. That is exactly what the codependent does.

codependents are people who let the feelings and actions of another person affect them to the point that they lose control of their own lives.

Codependency affects people in a variety of ways, but common characteristics include:

· Excessive care-taking. Codependents feel responsible for others' actions, feelings, choices and emotional well-being. They try to anticipate loved one's needs and often wonder why others don't do the same for them.

· Low self-esteem. Codependents are people who need to be needed. They only feel important and valuable when they're helping others, and blame themselves for anything that goes wrong.

· Denial. Codependents typically ignore, minimize or rationalize problems in the relationship, believing "things will get better when" They stay busy to avoid thinking about their feelings.

· Fear of anger Codependents are afraid of both their own and their loved one's anger, because they fear it will destroy the relationship.

· Health Problems. The stress of codependency can lead to headaches, ulcers, asthma and high blood pressure.

· Addictive behavior. Codependents may themselves develop addictions in an attempt to deal with their pain and frustration.

I remember one article talking about half-a-dozen subcategories of codependents. They are definately not all the same, and focus on specialties, eg. the "rescuer" vs. the "complainer".

That stuff was from here:

http://www.drshirin.com/codepend.htm

This is a broad area and there are definitely differences amongst them, but in the three articles I just looked at some of the themse are like bright neon signs with you.

Edited August 25, 2011 by rlogan

[Phil N 4]

While it's moderately interesting and amusing to be on the receiving end of your attempted diagnosis and analysis, you are operating on very limited information. It's mostly barking up the wrong tree. Yes, I am an ACOA, and I did a ton of work in my young adulthood on ACOA-related issues. You're certainly not going to "fix" me here.

One thing I learned from a friend who spent 7 years in a relationship with a BPD, is the power that BPDs (and NPDs) have to pull people, especially partners, into their "alternate reality". When I first met him, I kicked his butt HARD for all the poor choices he made, adjusting his life to orbit around this woman, and losing his own way. Well, at that point I had never been in any kind of relationship with a BPD. Now I understand firsthand the intensity and pull that BPDs can have on their intimate partners. Now I'm not so critical of him any more. But I made different choices and did not get ensnared so deeply into the relationship with the BPD.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Phil N

[Phil N 4]

UPDATE: The court hearing on the DV restraining order was held this morning. My ex-fiancee showed up to contest it. Along with her were her two friends who live 1.5 hours away. Her male friend sandbagged me this week, pretending he didn't know where she was. She showed up coached by him and well prepared to fight the order. He's been through his own family court wars, so he had a decent idea of how to coach her. In the end, the DV part of it upheld. The resulting order was watered down a little, basically allowing contact for arranging her return to her country, and limited in time to 3 months. So I don't know if she/they really accomplished anything. Possibly it was about emotional venting more than anything else. The particular female judge who conducted the hearing has a reputation for being extremely biased against men, and certainly that was on display in the cases before us. Me and my two support people shook our heads in disbelief as this judge coached and supported women through their efforts to get DV restraining orders against men, and scolded and stonewalled the men who were confused by the process. I was the only male on the "Petitioner" side.

Mostly, the process made me very glad that I wasn't dealing with her in any kind of post-marriage proceeding. Her friend was willing to lie and distort where necessary, but that's the environment that family court/DV court creates. So I don't particularly hold any grudges against him, or her for that matter. He can't or won't see her BPD, possibly because she's not shown it to him because that's not their relationship. I also don't think she's been honest with him about a number of things. But, that's how it goes.

My ex-fiancee, like many of the men on the "respondent" side of a DV order, misunderstood the process. She was asking during the process if she could get a restraining order against me during the hearing, sort like a #######-for-tat thing. She was also constantly talking about money and what she felt my support obligations towards her should be and thinking the judge could somehow force me to give her more money. Maybe that's how things would work where she comes from...

Anyway, I'm still processing all this. I'll probably post some more updates later. I'm just glad it wasn't a "spousal maintenance" hearing like the other guy whose story I posted.

[psychasthenia 9]

Anyway, I'm still processing all this. I'll probably post some more updates later. I'm just glad it wasn't a "spousal maintenance" hearing like the other guy whose story I posted.

Hey, PhilN, I am glad to read that you are trying to process the whole situation now. I hope you are talking about emotionally processing it. In order to move on and learn from what happened, it might help you to actually grieve your loss. Only you know what dreams and hopes you had about this woman. Only you know what you went through. You are the arbiter of this and you know best, but it seems that your focus on BPD prevents you from dealing with the emotional sequalae of your loss.

[DeeDee&Sam 68]

Phil im kinda confused by one thing. knowing your story here, few days ago i found a new topic posted by a new member who was complaining about coming to USA to her fiance, who tried to force her into having sex with him. also she came with her daughter. i saw a pattern here. anyway reading further into her story i found out her "ex fiance" got a restraining order against her based on "lies" and he got other woman into the house when she was still living there. i looked at the country to see if by any chance she was from ukraine. there were no details. so i replied to the topic saying her story seems kinda familiar and included the link to your topic. now whats even weirder, a little after that the topic dissapeared from my content list, and i cant see the member anywhere. either she deleted her account or blocked me without a reason. so...yeah...confusing....

[Phil N 4]

Phil im kinda confused by one thing. knowing your story here, few days ago i found a new topic posted by a new member who was complaining about coming to USA to her fiance, who tried to force her into having sex with him. also she came with her daughter. i saw a pattern here. anyway reading further into her story i found out her "ex fiance" got a restraining order against her based on "lies" and he got other woman into the house when she was still living there. i looked at the country to see if by any chance she was from ukraine. there were no details. so i replied to the topic saying her story seems kinda familiar and included the link to your topic. now whats even weirder, a little after that the topic dissapeared from my content list, and i cant see the member anywhere. either she deleted her account or blocked me without a reason. so...yeah...confusing....

I'm sure it would have been interesting to hear her side of the story. It does sound like there are similarities...

I'm telling my story from the point of view of the American man involved. It would be great to hear how it sounds from her point of view.

Let's see...

"I wanted to find a stupid American man, where I could pretend that I wanted to be his wife, long enough to trick him into marrying me and having him support me and my daughter for a couple years, until we can get a green card and leave his stupid a$s. And if he gets really annoying, I can always use VAWA and do an I-360 petition. Oh yeah, and one more thing, since I don't really love him and I'm just faking caring about him, and using him for economic reasons for me and my daughter, I don't want to act like a normal wife and sleep in the same bed with him. And after I give him a little bit of sex to lead him on and confuse him, I'll make up some argument or excuse and cut him off, and then go sleep in another room instead of with him. After all, and in my mind I'm a hot 25 year old, and really I deserve Vin Diesel or Antonio Banderas, not some ordinary man. He should feel grateful I ever shared my angelic self with him at all. And God forbid I should ever do his laundry or things like that for him. It's hard enough getting up at 2pm and smoking a couple packs and drinking a bottle of vodka and/or a bottle of wine. After all, I was up on Skype until 4am talking with my Russian-speaking friends. Never mind that i should be adjusting my body clock to the USA and making it possible for my teenage daughter to get out and experience life here. Anyway, since he called me on my BS and didn't marry me, how can I still stay in the USA and get him to pay for me, and still get a green card? He's just not cooperating. I read about other Ukrainian women who have done this successfully, so where did I go wrong? How can I get him to do what I want? He's evil. He had the nerve to take up with another woman, just because I wasn't acting like a wife, and was sleeping in another room. I thought American men were supposed to be stupid suckers, an easy mark for a sophisticated Russian woman like me. Aren't there some laws I can use against him? Can't I just go to the police and demand my rights?"

Yes, let's hear her side.

[Phil N 4]

Hey, PhilN, I am glad to read that you are trying to process the whole situation now. I hope you are talking about emotionally processing it. In order to move on and learn from what happened, it might help you to actually grieve your loss. Only you know what dreams and hopes you had about this woman. Only you know what you went through. You are the arbiter of this and you know best, but it seems that your focus on BPD prevents you from dealing with the emotional sequalae of your loss.

It's always nice to get a compassionate and sensible post... and this time you are mostly on the mark.

You are right. I did have a lot of hopes and dreams with this woman. So, so many. And her daughter too. And perhaps more children as well. That was part of my dream for sure. This woman fit so much of my list... or so I thought. Yes, there is definitely some grieving going on, grieving the amazing and fun and romantic life I wanted to have with her that I believed was possible.

A bunch of it got dashed on that day at the ocean, where what should have been a fun romantic time got turned into a mess, over what seemed like a silly and coincidental misunderstanding. Then I started seeing the pattern. The rest of the hopes and dreams got gradually dashed on the rocks too over the next few days and weeks. It does suck to let go of that dream life I was going to create with her. But VJ isn't my first choice for grieving, and I have a pretty good support network of family and friends for that. So I probably won't talk about that much here. In fact, my objective here is more to document the story, for others to learn from, when elements of their evolving story seem similar to mine. I suppose that is part of my grieving process. The other fellow, whose story I summarized, was a big help in knowing to NOT go forward with marriage. If I had married her, my story might have ended a lot like his, where within a few months of marriage, he left his home and went on an extended "camping" trip to get away from his wife, and soon wound up being ordered by family court to pay her several thou$and dollars per month spousal maintenance. So I'm celebrating at the same time I'm grieving. And part of my grieving is turning my mind to creating the next chapters of my life, adjusting the story so it doesn't have her in it, but is just as exciting and successful, if not more so, than the life I envisioned with her.

[britty9 0]

So....B!tches to the airplane?

[Phil N 4]

Wow, this thread is quite a doozy too. His ex-wife is from Moldova, and things really unraveled for him. I suppose I'll read it when I have a few spare hours...

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/189857-my-wife-threw-her-marriage-and-life-here-away/page__st__420

[Phil N 4]

So....B!tches to the airplane?

LOL!!

Good memory you have, to pull the "beaches" tidbit from way back earlier in the thread!

Yes, it should have been "beaches -- airplane" but said while approaching the beach in Hawaii with me and pointing to an airplane overhead. But that's her loss.

[rlogan 2,036]

While it's moderately interesting and amusing to be on the receiving end of your attempted diagnosis and analysis,

You are the one who came asking for input, so belittling those that do is even more "interesting and amusing". One of the other things about codependency is that they too are manipulative, and this tactic is straight out of the book. You have an invalidator in here along with the derision - but this stuff doesn't work on me.

you are operating on very limited information. It's mostly barking up the wrong tree. Yes, I am an ACOA, and I did a ton of work in my young adulthood on ACOA-related issues.

Mostly barking up the wrong tree except for so many things I am dead right about, and here is an extremely important one: Adult child of alcoholic. Me too. In part, that is what gives me such insight into you. Look at the critical things I have said that are true. The only thing I see you disagreeing about is your codependency, which is precisely what a codependent will do.

If you are an adult child of alcoholic then you ought to be aware of how prevelant codependency is in them, and in spouses of the alcoholic. This is actually where the term "codependency" arose: in the people most immediate to the alcoholic or drug addict. Now of course the science has been extended to all manner of codependents associating themselves with people who have serious problems.

You're certainly not going to "fix" me here.

I couldn't agree more. Fixating on trying to do so is classic co-dependency. The main benefit is the insight this gives other people. Denial is extremely powerful in codependency. People need to see this: "I don't have a problem..." Apart from starting off in an alcoholic family, choosing all these leper-people to associate with, obsessing over them, losing control of your life because of this association...

The classic codependent will have his fiance nearly killing him in one way or another, while the ex-girlfriend is moving back into the same house with both of them - something bordering on insane behavior to normal people - and saying the whole time how in control of everything he is. It is all so perfectly rational, logical, normal...

One thing I learned from a friend who spent 7 years in a relationship with a BPD, is the power that BPDs (and NPDs) have to pull people, especially partners, into their "alternate reality". When I first met him, I kicked his butt HARD for all the poor choices he made, adjusting his life to orbit around this woman, and losing his own way.

Exactly. That is what a codependent does. Look how you took on this guys problems, just like the last fiance' and how it is such an important part of your self-identity to be the one taking charge of someone else's problems. As you said, I am not going to fix you. You do not want to be fixed. It is "fun" to be playing with dynamite. Others though can learn from this.

Take care. I think my work is done.

Edited August 25, 2011 by rlogan

[Phil N 4]

You are the one who came asking for input, so belittling those that do is even more "interesting and amusing". One of the other things about codependency is that they too are manipulative, and this tactic is straight out of the book. You have an invalidator in here along with the derision - but this stuff doesn't work on me.

Mostly barking up the wrong tree except for so many things I am dead right about, and here is an extremely important one: Adult child of alcoholic. Me too. In part, that is what gives me such insight into you. Look at the critical things I have said that are true. The only thing I see you disagreeing about is your codependency, which is precisely what a codependent will do.

If you are an adult child of alcoholic then you ought to be aware of how prevelant codependency is in them, and in spouses of the alcoholic. This is actually where the term "codependency" arose: in the people most immediate to the alcoholic or drug addict. Now of course the science has been extended to all manner of codependents associating themselves with people who have serious problems.

I couldn't agree more. Fixating on trying to do so is classic co-dependency. The main benefit is the insight this gives other people. Denial is extremely powerful in codependency. People need to see this: "I don't have a problem..." Apart from starting off in an alcoholic family, choosing all these leper-people to associate with, obsessing over them, losing control of your life because of this association...

The classic codependent will have his fiance nearly killing him in one way or another, while the ex-girlfriend is moving back into the same house with both of them - something bordering on insane behavior to normal people - and saying the whole time how in control of everything he is. It is all so perfectly rational, logical, normal...

Exactly. That is what a codependent does. Look how you took on this guys problems, just like the last fiance' and how it is such an important part of your self-identity to be the one taking charge of someone else's problems. As you said, I am not going to fix you. You do not want to be fixed. It is "fun" to be playing with dynamite. Others though can learn from this.

Take care. I think my work is done.

The point of this thread, for me anyway, is to share the story, for the collective good, and get helpful ideas from others who have relevant information and perspective. So you've made your point that you think I have codependent tendencies. That's great, except that it doesn't really point that well to anything clear and specific and actionable. Should I read or listen to a John Bradshaw book again? Or maybe reread everything Melodie Beattie ever wrote? Go attend ACOA meetings? Codependency is a big, big subject, with lots of different flavors and subcategories and details and specifics. I know your opinion, "aha, he's one of THOSE!!" and so does the everyone else reading the thread. Your work here is indeed done. I believe my primary challenges now are in areas other than codependency. I hope we can agree to disagree.

As far as taking on this guy's problems, first and foremost I'm a businessman. Our relationship started out as business and we became good friends along the way. When his situation went south a little bit, I made a business decision to help this guy out, based on facts and data, and a read on him that he was truly ready to take responsibility and make changes. He was and he has been. Do I mix my head and my heart in such decisions, YES. Right now this guy is doing great things for me on the business side. Improving my bottom line by about $1K per month. I recently lost another such business bet on a person, and although it could still turn around, right now that one is a net loss of about $1500.

If I get blown up playing with dynamite, at least I can say while I was alive, I LIVED. And it was never boring. As the quote goes, "If you don't piss off an occasional person, you're playing it much too safe." By their very nature, international relationships and marriage are risky business. Of course, family court being what it is, almost ANY marriage is risky business for a man these days.

"Normal" is a very subjective concept. And I disagree with your false dichotomy of Normal/Not Normal. Everyone has issues and challenges. That's normal. That's fine, toss me into the "Not Normal" group and call it a day. Remember the Mel Brooks movie, Young Frankenstein? Igor goes to the brain depository, accidentally drops the glass jar containing the brain he wanted on the floor, breaking and destroying it. Then he grabs a different brain-in-a-jar off the shelf, with the label "Abnormal" on the jar, and that's the brain the monster winds up getting. So yeah, I'm sure that's me, "Abbie Normal", and everyone else is simply "Normal". Gotta go, my organ donation forms just came up on the printer, gotta sign them and send them off.

[Phil N 4]

I have never understood the need for a Tarzan-swinging-through-the-jungle mentality when it comes to love....not truly letting go of one before firmly grabbing hold of another. Get it together, man.

This question has been asked a couple times in different ways, so I'll respond here.

It's difficult to tell if the K-1 process will be successful. When we were on opposite sides of the ocean, my ex-fiancee did not prove herself as a woman worth totally stopping my local dating life for. A woman can "disappear" into thin air at any moment. On my second visit, she again failed to show me that she was worth giving up my local dating life. And how do I KNOW what she was or wasn't doing herself? She seemed to be a woman with many secrets.

I love women, and enjoy their company. It has been normal for me the last two years to have a dating rotation of 1-5 women at any given time. When the number was more than 1, the women knew I was not exclusive with them. When the number was 1, and it was exclusive, I kept to that. I lost a great woman last summer because I was honest with her about my situation of being engaged. All I ever told her was let's have fun and see where it leads. She wanted more serious and sooner. In another 2-3 months, possibly I would have broken off the engagement and chosen to be with her.

My ex-fiance kept playing games with me instead of showing me that I was her man and she was my woman. I would notice that she was active on the dating site where we met. Each time I saw that, I felt it gave me permission to continue my local dating life. She was not as reliable as I would have liked with her communication, and not as energetic and motivated to make regular Skype chats happen. After giving her a start time "range" of 30 minutes, If I was even a few minutes late for the earliest start time, she would have a hissy fit. (Another BPD trait, BTW) After my second visit to see her, she dropped off the grid and did not communicate with me for 11 days. I should have broken it off right then. I didn't because I felt I had too much invested. Besides, the K-1 petition approval had already been received, and, as I understood it, that used up one of my two lifetime "bullets" right there, so I may as well go ahead and roll the dice and give her a chance to be the woman she promises she'll be once she comes to my country.

I gave my ex-fiancee every opportunity to show that she was my woman, and that she was here because she loved me and wanted to build a life together. Instead she played games of withholding herself and acting like hers was made of gold and lined with diamonds, and creating arguments out of thin air as an excuse to not move into my bedroom (and make it ours) and to not sleep in the same bed with me. She drove me away. She proved that I was right to keep options open. I told her repeatedly, in person, and in email, do not play games in the area of intimacy with a man with options, and I am a man with options. She repeatedly chose to ignore this. Having abundance in my life in the area of dating helped me have the strength to not get sucked into her games out of emotional and sexual neediness and desperation. You can call it my defense mechanism, or you can call me a #######, or whatever you want. My ex-fiancee tried to manipulate the wrong man. Her games also showed that she neither loved me nor respected me. She thought I was a desperate American man, without options, an easy mark for her games.

Primarily, I am guilty of ignoring the huge red flags with my ex-fiancee and bringing her over anyway. I should have saved my resources for a much higher quality woman. I gave her credit and value for qualities she did not possess. Having other options helped keep me from doing something even more stupid and marrying her.

A couple lessons, in hindsight:

1) If, especially after becoming engaged, she doesn't make me feel like being exclusive with her and devoting all attention to her, and that she is doing the same for ME, then STOP immediately! Do not file K-1! Do not buy airline tickets! Do not pass GO! Cut losses immediately!

2) Cultural differences are never an excuse for ignoring red flags.

OK everyone, flame away on that!

[Fandango 1,440]

It's funny, you don't like him diagnosing you, yet you did so to your ex with such ease....

[Phil N 4]

It's funny, you don't like him diagnosing you, yet you did so to your ex with such ease....

Don't you think RLogan and I should at least LIVE together first before he diagnoses me?

Oh, and sure I *like* it.

RLogan, can you come over for a couple months so you we can share some quality time mutually diagnosing each other?

I think you said you were ACOA too, so I'm sure we'd have fun.

How do you feel about beaches and ladies rooms? And pina coladas and getting caught in the rain?