Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Dan and Judy 614]

Take a very close look at your 're' girlfriend. If she agreed to this she's mad.

Mad is such a vulgar word. We prefer BPD.....................................Oh you mean our ex ex girlfriend

She is not mad, she was happy to do it.

After a few days cooling her heels in that hotel she will be much more pliable, then we will sit

down and have a resonable conversation and discuss her options.

We are hoping we can remain friends.

[cdneh 3,112]

Mad is such a vulgar word. We prefer BPD.....................................Oh you mean our ex ex girlfriend

She is not mad, she was happy to do it.

After a few days cooling her heels in that hotel she will be much more pliable, then we will sit

down and have a resonable conversation and discuss her options.

We are hoping we can remain friends.

Where I come from mad does not mean angry. Mad as a march hare, Crazy as.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Where I come from mad does not mean angry. Mad as a march hare, Crazy as.

Where we come from we call them bunnies not hares.

[cdneh 3,112]

Where we come from we call them bunnies not hares.

Tomato potatoe

[Phil N 4]

Phil, I really hope you listen to some of the advice in this thread with regard to your future. I'm so happy that you did finally get her out of your life, but really, you need to back off the serious relationships for a while. Please don't rush into anything at all with this ex/re-girlfriend, or anyone else for that matter. You said it yourself, she wasn't good enough for you before and had to be fixed before you would date her again, and even though you said she's done a lot of work towards fixing herself, it says a lot that you continually are attracted to women that need some kind of fixing.

You need to examine if you are now settling for what you before considered damaged goods. When you have been in a bad relationship, a previous not great one will seem a lot better in comparison. Don't drop your standards, and while I feel they're pretty high, if you accept now what you wouldn't accept before, you'll find yourself unhappy once the relief wears off and you no longer need the comfort of an exgirlfriend. They're good for a rebound, but not for long term.

Also, stay away from women from other countries, at least for a good long while. You may find yourself once again making excuses for them based on being from a different culture, when they really just aren't a good match.

I appreciate the advice, and certainly, this has been a very educational experience for me.

I knew I was rolling the dice with this woman.

Let me tell you a not-so-secret... by the time almost any woman gets near 40, there are issues and baggage and such, some women having in greater quantities than others, of course. So then it becomes a matter of "compatible" baggage, life views, etc. As if we men were all perfect and issue-free ourselves...

There were three things that kept me from committing to an exclusive relationship with this woman (the re-girlfriend) before. I told her exactly what those things were. I frankly didn't expect her to do anything to change those, since I'd been seeing her off and on for 2 years, with minimal progress. When she realized what was happening, that I would be totally out of her life, she stopped with her excuses and got started working on those things. For the sake of discussion, one of those three things was having goals of her own and a history of effort in the area of personal development. I can tell you now that she has an incredible set of goals, realistic, clear, challenging, with all kinds of emotions and reasons attached. Hell, now hers are better than mine. My issue was that she wasn't using and developing her amazing, incredible talents. She's a singer who got too depressed to get out and sing for years. I kicked her butt and got her out singing again, and performing is something she loves to do. Two nights ago, she won the second round of a local/regional singing competition and is off to the finals in another month. Keep in mind that part of the problem is "I" needed to think more clearly and properly about my "checklist", and realize a woman can *support* me in doing my thing, being a better version of me with her than without her. For example, she doesn't have to renegotiate the mortgages on my other house with the banks like a savvy businessman; all she has to do is help organize me and remind me and schedule me and take care of enough other things so I have the ambition and will to go do what needs to be done. There are a lot of ways to be a very successful, high-functioning team as a couple. And I wasn't giving this woman enough credit. The problem was primarily in my thinking and in what I wasn't seeing. Am I going to marry this woman tomorrow? No, no such plans. She still has a bit more proving to do, that she can keep following through. But my ex-fiancee helped me realize how good things really were. Things I took for granted. The truth is that when I looked at my checklist, I realized that I could answer "Yes" to almost all the items on my 50-item yes/no list. Things like "My Gracie, not my Delilah." Things like, "would I want to go on a week-long road trip with just her." Anyway, I'll be busy with her for a while, so I don't think I'll be dealing with any foreign women for a while.

A friend of mine relayed some advice from his wise uncle about women to me, something I hadn't heard before. It was to "be with the woman who loves YOU the most." Not necessarily the same as the sexiest siren you might lust for, but the one who loves YOU the most. So this was pretty clear... be with a dangerous woman who didn't love me, or a woman who loves me like no woman I've ever met before, even after the heartbreak I put her through?

[TBoneTX 45,361]

Good previous post, si man.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Tomato potatoe

Are you trying to confuse us? Did you mean Tomato, Tomatoe. Or are you making a list of what bunnies like to eat. Where some of us come from they call 'em rabbits.

If you are trying to make a list then we should include carrots.

P^S^ ( PS means Im done talking about that and want to talk about something else)

Also this is a caret ^. This is NOT what bunnies like to eat.

A carrot is orange and looks like a stick but where we come from we pronounce carrot and caret the same. Isn't that crazy.

P^S^S

I told you she enjoyed it, Nothing makes a woman hotter than having her rival banging on the bedroom door while youre inside banging her.

We must confess we enjoyed it too, boy did we enjoy it. I hope all this dosn't make you mad because we realy can't help ourselves.

We will now commit ourselves to helping our ex ex girlfriend with her singing career.

Wait...where some us come from "Commit" means to put someone into a mental institution.

that is NOT the kind of commit we mean, we mean it more like focus on. We have a 26 step program worked out and we will take it one step at a time.

That would be crazy to commit ourselves. It's not like we are nuts or something

Edited August 13, 2011 by Dan and Judy

[DeeDee&Sam 68]

I appreciate the advice, and certainly, this has been a very educational experience for me.

I knew I was rolling the dice with this woman.

Let me tell you a not-so-secret... by the time almost any woman gets near 40, there are issues and baggage and such, some women having in greater quantities than others, of course. So then it becomes a matter of "compatible" baggage, life views, etc. As if we men were all perfect and issue-free ourselves...

There were three things that kept me from committing to an exclusive relationship with this woman (the re-girlfriend) before. I told her exactly what those things were. I frankly didn't expect her to do anything to change those, since I'd been seeing her off and on for 2 years, with minimal progress. When she realized what was happening, that I would be totally out of her life, she stopped with her excuses and got started working on those things. For the sake of discussion, one of those three things was having goals of her own and a history of effort in the area of personal development. I can tell you now that she has an incredible set of goals, realistic, clear, challenging, with all kinds of emotions and reasons attached. Hell, now hers are better than mine. My issue was that she wasn't using and developing her amazing, incredible talents. She's a singer who got too depressed to get out and sing for years. I kicked her butt and got her out singing again, and performing is something she loves to do. Two nights ago, she won the second round of a local/regional singing competition and is off to the finals in another month. Keep in mind that part of the problem is "I" needed to think more clearly and properly about my "checklist", and realize a woman can *support* me in doing my thing, being a better version of me with her than without her. For example, she doesn't have to renegotiate the mortgages on my other house with the banks like a savvy businessman; all she has to do is help organize me and remind me and schedule me and take care of enough other things so I have the ambition and will to go do what needs to be done. There are a lot of ways to be a very successful, high-functioning team as a couple. And I wasn't giving this woman enough credit. The problem was primarily in my thinking and in what I wasn't seeing. Am I going to marry this woman tomorrow? No, no such plans. She still has a bit more proving to do, that she can keep following through. But my ex-fiancee helped me realize how good things really were. Things I took for granted. The truth is that when I looked at my checklist, I realized that I could answer "Yes" to almost all the items on my 50-item yes/no list. Things like "My Gracie, not my Delilah." Things like, "would I want to go on a week-long road trip with just her." Anyway, I'll be busy with her for a while, so I don't think I'll be dealing with any foreign women for a while.

A friend of mine relayed some advice from his wise uncle about women to me, something I hadn't heard before. It was to "be with the woman who loves YOU the most." Not necessarily the same as the sexiest siren you might lust for, but the one who loves YOU the most. So this was pretty clear... be with a dangerous woman who didn't love me, or a woman who loves me like no woman I've ever met before, even after the heartbreak I put her through?

excelent post!! definately, this failed relationship, if we can call it a relationship, helped you to have a more mature and healthy thinking. this is the nr1 step to a better and happier life

[Phil N 4]

The power of sharing stories. Here are excerpts from a similar thread on another board, from about a year ago. The difference is that this poor guy married his fiance quickly. He is going through the process trying to divorce her. In the meantime, he has been hit with $2500 per month support payments to her. He believes his girl is a high-functioning BPD also. His amateur diagnosis, not mine!

It appears there is a PLAYBOOK in operation here. It could be called, "How to get your fiancee to marry you quickly, and then kick him/her to the curb while he/she pays through the nose, and you get everything you want." It's probably not gender-specific, but the data so far suggests that this playbook is especially popular among Russian-speaking women looking to use it on American men. When my fiancee started running plays from this playbook, I was in utter shock and disbelief.

I didn't share all the details here, but my fiancee made a big production of giving me "marry me right away or else" ultimatums at least 3 different times, generally involving withholding affection, intimacy, sex, and sharing the same bed. Thankfully, my immediate internal reaction was that this pushed me AWAY from her, rather than making me feel I needed to marry her. If she had just rocked my world from day 1, and kept on doing that, and only gently requested quick marriage, with no ultimatums, and adjusted her schedule to match mine, and generally simply acted like a normal loving wife and partner would, easily I would have married her within three weeks. I didn't feel she could fake such things for more than a few days at most.

Quick similarities between his story and mine:

- My (ex) fiancee complained about the bed being garbage as well (an excuse to not have to sleep in it with me) Same exact words my fiancee used!

- My fiancee pressured me to marry her quickly

- My fiancee would only let me kiss her on the cheek, no kisses on the lips, except during intimate times when drunk

- My fiancee routinely stayed up until 4am when sleeping in her daughter's room, which was most of the time

- My fiancee also hit me and I also told her this was UNACCEPTABLE, and she continued to hit me

- I made the mistake of bringing her here after some warning signs that I wanted to believe were just cultural differences and emotional stress.

- We wrote many hundred emails

- We talked on the phone almost daily

- She would tell me that I make her crazy, she was absolutely normal until coming here

- The episodes of "toddler rage" displayed by his wife seem essentially identical to my fiancee's toddler rage episodes.

Differences

- There were sexual relations about a handful of times in the first 3 weeks, usually after my fiancee had consumed several Black Russians/shots of vodka

- There were a few times my fiancee was affectionate with me in public, but it was hit and miss

- My fiancee seemed to truly enjoy receiving hugs from me, especially as recognition for her deeds, like cooking

HIS STORY -- Excerpts:

==================================================================================

"My fiancee arrived here in September. We married quickly to allow her to have privileges of driving, working, etc., and especially to have her and her children on my medical insurance. The way she acted in Ukraine was so different from how she acted here, that I swear it was a different girl. She does not want me to touch her, she won't kiss me, and she openly treats me disrespectfully. She says Americans are stupid. Then she said I should expect to find her with other men. I feel so used, this feels so fraudulent. There's no way I'm going to adjust status or do anything to enable this fraud. I just want a quickie divorce and a plane ride home for her. Why was I so hasty to marry her?? I bet she will do everything she can to stay here now, file VAWA, stay illegally, whatever she can do. Her young son and teenage daughter speak very little English so things are difficult for them here too.

I visited her twice in Ukraine and spent over 3 weeks with her there. I swear she was a different person. I spoke with on the phone several times a day for over a year. It seemed like we were perfect for each other and destined to be together. Her son has medical issues so I thought it was the right thing to do to marry her quickly when she arrived, so he would have medical coverage. I felt we had an intense love affair, but I guess I was so wrong... Her behavior here in the US is the absolute opposite of how she behaved towards me in Ukraine. I don't know, if I had waited longer to marry her, maybe she would have just continued her scam longer. I believed in and trusted this lying scammer.

If I try to kiss her, she turns away, even in private where nobody is watching. There wasn't really a fight or anything, she just decided she didn't want to be affectionate with me. We used to walk hand in hand, and now, she will move away if I try to get close to her.

She stays up until 4am communicating on some Russian-language facebook with her Ukrainian friends. I asked her to come to bed with me, but she won't just stays up. I should have learned more about her past... she has kept a lot of secrets from me. When she did sleep in my bed, she would wake me up in the middle of my sleep to tell me the bed was garbage. Sometimes in moments of sanity, she will apologize and beg for forgiveness, but next thing I know, it's back to the same old thing. She tells me that I make her crazy, that she was absolutely normal until she started being around me.

Several times, she has lost her temper and started to hit me. It's normal for her to lose her temper suddenly and start saying that all men are stupid and that she hates me, hates my country, hates my house, hates my family, hates everything. I have bruises from where she has hit me and kicked me. I told her this was unacceptable here, but of course this did not stop her. It happened again this week, and again I tried to tell her again that it was NOT ACCEPTABLE TO HIT ME and she went even deeper into a fit of rage. I decided to leave the house, and she chased me all the way out, trying to hit and kick me as I left. She told me I was a stupid little boy who needed to be hit and punished for all his stupid deeds. My situation is that if I even get a domestic violence charge, never mind conviction, I will probably lose my job.

Wow, did I ever ignore warning signs, thinking they were language or cultural differences. She refused my offer of plane tickets back to Ukraine and now it's an incredible mess for me here. At first she agreed... then a few hours lated, she changed her mind, because she didn't want to tell her children they would be going back. I finally left my house and went on a two-week camping trip, just to get away and not get suckered into false domestic violence charges. I don't know what to do now...

[RICARDO4EVA2 194]

Shouldn't have gone this far to stop these women. .. Just too sad because I find it a easy fix.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

It appears there is a PLAYBOOK in operation here. It could be called, "How to get your fiancee to marry you quickly, and then kick him/her to the curb while he/she pays through the nose, and you get everything you want." It's probably not gender-specific, but the data so far suggests that this playbook is especially popular among Russian-speaking women looking to use it on American men. When my fiancee started running plays from this playbook, I was in utter shock and disbelief.

There are several "playbooks", just be glad your's wasn't reading from the how to get married and adjust using VAWA Playbook...

[Darnell 8,478]

yup, the VAWA playbook is abysmal.

We do hear about the 'gone wrong' attempts, sometimes.

Be thankful yer not a wishy-washy fella, like our buddy madcat with elena in nyc - that was a freakin nightmare times 11.

[rlogan 2,036]

- My (ex) fiancee complained about the bed being garbage as well (an excuse to not have to sleep in it with me) Same exact words my fiancee used!

Oh how funny! I had a US Citizen wife that said the bed squeaked. OK, you tell me how to do this without the bed squeaking.

It's better to marry the one that will do it in the car or in the woods or maybe even a store elevator if you can get it stopped between floors for a quickie.

I haven't checked in to this thread in a while but I guess it's delivering. The "marry me quickly or else" business is talked about in all of these personality disorder discussions. I remember some youtube videos you can google where they highlight that specifically. What kind of person do you have to be in order to set out in the beginning to do a VAWA fraud entry into the USA? A person without conscience. A predator. Some kind of antisocial personality disorder. These people exist and you have to be on your guard for them.

Edited August 18, 2011 by rlogan

[DeeDee&Sam 68]

Oh how funny! I had a US Citizen wife that said the bed squeaked. OK, you tell me how to do this without the bed squeaking.

It's better to marry the one that will do it in the car or in the woods or maybe even a store elevator if you can get it stopped between floors for a quickie.

I haven't checked in to this thread in a while but I guess it's delivering. The "marry me quickly or else" business is talked about in all of these personality disorder discussions. I remember some youtube videos you can google where they highlight that specifically. What kind of person do you have to be in order to set out in the beginning to do a VAWA fraud entry into the USA? A person without conscience. A predator. Some kind of antisocial personality disorder. These people exist and you have to be on your guard for them.

LMAOOOOOO!!!!! you can do it without the squeking problem. stick it in, dont move, and wait for a miracle

[Phil N 4]

Oh how funny! I had a US Citizen wife that said the bed squeaked. OK, you tell me how to do this without the bed squeaking.

It's better to marry the one that will do it in the car or in the woods or maybe even a store elevator if you can get it stopped between floors for a quickie.

I haven't checked in to this thread in a while but I guess it's delivering. The "marry me quickly or else" business is talked about in all of these personality disorder discussions. I remember some youtube videos you can google where they highlight that specifically. What kind of person do you have to be in order to set out in the beginning to do a VAWA fraud entry into the USA? A person without conscience. A predator. Some kind of antisocial personality disorder. These people exist and you have to be on your guard for them.

Actually her favorite places include the bathroom and the kitchen. I only experienced the bathroom, and that was in the apartment I rented in her country. The kitchen was something she hinted at as a benefit of marriage. The irony of her calling my bed garbage... in her room in her mother's apartment, her bed is a hide-a-bed couch, with books propping up part of the bed because the hide-a-bed leg was broken. She made a point of showing me this and trying to elicit sympathy when I was there. So it seems even stranger, in hindsight, for her to criticize my bed. I had a memory foam mattress topper on it; she didn't like that, so I took that off.

Earlier in the thread, when people here were calling me sex-obsessed, saying I was pressuring her, etc., all I was doing was testing what she had said, things she said directly, or dropped as hints. Towards the end of my second visit in her country, she said all I had to do was "TAKE what you want" and "so much wasted time..." over times when I didn't initiate because of her consistent nonverbal cues that suggested unreceptiveness. Also, in our phone conversations in the few weeks prior to her flying over here, she made a BIG deal out of asking me about availability of birth control pills here, and letting me know she would get a full month supply of birth control pills in her country and bring with her. This was her way of leading me on to think that there would be a lot of intimate activity in the month before I could get her on my health plan, after marriage. I consciously decided I would test her statements, because they didn't match what I had felt from her. That was specifically what I was doing on that second morning. So when I got shut down and shot down, that suggested that her words had not been sincere, and the take-what-you-want speech and hint-dropping about birth control pills had been more about leading me on. Then she created a conflict out of thin air later that day, which, coincidentally, created an excuse to avoid intimacy. So apparently the playbook says to get the man so horny and frustrated that I would think with the small head, give in to this manipulation, and marry her quickly. Apparently this tease-and-then-withhold ploy has worked on enough men in the past for her to adopt it as a tried and true way of getting what she wants. Was all this part of a grand premeditated plan? I ran across this article that I thought was excellent, and the comments below the article were quite interesting too. The article is by Dr Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD.

http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/is-a-borderline-or-narcissist-womans-emotionally-abusive-behavior-premeditated/

Some excerpts:

"1) A borderline or narcissistic woman’s behavior isn’t what I’d call “premeditated” in the traditional sense. These women basically run on a mixture of primitive, unconscious instincts, conflicts and operant conditioning." (Operant conditioning here means a reward-and-punishment for doing or not doing what she wants her man to do)

"What does this mean? Basically, she doesn’t have a James Bond evil villain-esque plan for world domination; everyday is a battle to protect herself from being assaulted by the truth of what a damaged, flawed being she is. These women create a distorted bubble of un-reality in which they are wonderful, misunderstood creatures who have to put up with lesser beings like you, me and everyone else on the planet."

"These women see the world in terms of rewards and punishments—much like a 5-year old. Calling a NPD/BPD’s behavior “premeditated” gives her credit for a level of self-awareness I just don’t think she possesses. Also like a 5-year old, these women are totally egocentric. They believe the world revolves around them, that everyone else is like them, and motivated by the same desires and fears."

So was my ex-fiancee's behavior a premeditated evil scheme, or just how BPD woman would normally act? I tend to think it was a mix, that she was familiar with numerous "stories" of other Russian-speaking brides who had come to the USA, from Russian-language message boards, websites, and acquaintances, and she naturally paid attention to the elements of those stories that she intuitively felt would help her gain emotional control over a man, more specifically, ME. So in that sense, I think it is a playbook, from other women sharing their "it worked for me" tips, sort of like a Cosmo magazine article, and her picking out those parts that naturally appealed to her.

Of course, she executed the playbook a little incompetently, and got things out of sequence. For example, on the third day, saying she would go to the police and demand her rights was a little out-of-sequence. The playbook actually calls for this ploy AFTER marriage, sweetie. This was an especially bad fit with her statement a couple days later about how she had learned she has no rights in this country until after we are married. Then top it off a day later with her giving me a "reminder sample" of intimate relations, quickly followed by the ultimatum of not sleeping in the same bed with me and no more sex until AFTER we are married. Mix in another episode or two of her mentioning "police" and "demanding her rights", after hitting ME, of course, even I was confused. After all, I thought I was getting a smart, highly capable woman, and here she was botching the playbook badly. So I started thinking, "can I really build an empire with a woman this incompetent by my side? She can't even seem to execute a scam competently." And since she never adjusted her schedule to normal USA waking and sleeping hours, that didn't help much either in her showing me she could function competently here.

Why am I still beating this dead horse? Because I want to write up my story, and the other man's story, and similar ones, and post them on enough Russian-bride-related sites and lists where men will see them, and recognize patterns. My friend whose story I summarized a few posts ago has much of his story already written up. Of course, some of the patterns that need to be recognized here are MINE, things I did to make excuses for her and overlook issues with her behavior, hoping that just this once, the universe would make an exception to me. It's much easier to see these things in hindsight. For example, the website where I met her, her profile says: "Smoking: No" and "Drinking: No". Well, I learned that she is a chain-smoker and essentially an alcoholic as well. Did I give her a free pass for these outright lies? Yeah. And then as I had more and more invested in her, I made more and more excuses for her, so I wouldn't have to walk away from that investment and start over. Part of it was me being confident I would win her over once I got her here, and everything would wind up as a "happily ever after" story. So much better it would have been for everyone involved if I had just walked away. On my second visit to her country, towards the end of my visit, I seriously considered checking into a different apartment for the last 2 days, and just disappearing on her. I can't really even give a good answer on why I went all the way to bringing her here. Somehow I felt I was supposed to, that there was some spiritual destiny involved, that for some unknown reason I was supposed to bring her over here, against all rules of logic and sense. I'll even confess that there were "signs" that she saw, that clearly told her she was supposed to come over here with me, I was THE ONE, and even though I thought those signs were just BS superstitions, I could see that SHE believed in them, and I allowed that to influence me. I will say that this has certainly been an extremely educational (and expensive) process.

I do think that having things work with me (having me under her control) was her "Plan A", and VAWA was "Plan B", in case I got out of line after marriage.

RLogan, do you have links to those videos you mentioned? I'd like to check them out.