Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Phil N 4]

Ditto to the bolded line above.

I think people here would try a lot more to understand you and maybe have sympathy for you if you left out all the fancy psychological terminology. I get you mean well and you are trying hard to "get" your fiancee. The thing is- you admit yourself this is only your own assessment. Some of the behaviour she shows might be BPD, some might be bi-polar, some is some "normal", yet over the top defense mechanism.

Please do yourself and her the favor and have her professionally checked (if you haven't cut the cord already and have definitley decided to send her back home).

I don't know how you talk to her and how often you mention BPD to her, but to refer to her as "the BP" on here, like she is some kind of labrat, is a huge turn off.

Plus, if you DO talk to her about BPD, she might just turn it around on you and excuse all her tantrums and craziness on BPD or whatever else you told her she might suffer from, when in reality, she might just be a crazy, spoiled, never happy and satisfied brat.

It's hard to talk about this stuff without it becoming verbally awkward in a hurry.

I'm using some conventions from the "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (SWOE) book.

BP = Person with Borderline Personality Disorder. (suspected, in this case)

It does feel disrespectful and marginalizing to me, to refer to someone as "the BPD" or "the BP", because that's just one part of who they are. I agree in spirit with your lab rat comment, I just don't have a better way at the moment.

The SWOE book has a few paragraphs on the names and the rationale. The book "One Way Ticket to Kansas" also has some clever Wizard-of-Oz based terminology, like an "Ozzie" is a non-BP, i.e., person without BPD. "Oz" is the BP's version of reality, and "Kansas" is the "normal" reality that many non-BPs live in, or at least like to think we do.

Bipolar is pretty much "out" from my point of view. The cycles are much too rapid. I don't know if bipolar people "split" the way BPDs do; I just remember that after reading the DSM IV bipolar criteria, it didn't really fit.

I am going to try again to get her in for an assessment with a qualified professional. Haven't spoken to her since she did the 60mph steering wheel grab and yank that endangered three lives. I think after that extreme behavior on her part, endangering her *daughter's* life, not just mine, perhaps she got her own attention, and she might now realize this is a problem she needs to deal with. Or, yes, she might just blame it on me, that I *made* her so agitated that I *made* her do that crazy horrible thing.

[Phil N 4]

Perfect! Thanks. You are right on script. Inviting me to get defensive about being mentally ill, and I'm not accepting the invitation.

I participate in conversations about manipulation. I am attracted to your responses because of their manipulative content. For example, accusing someone who points out your manipulative tactics of being mentally ill. This is classic manipulative shaming and deserves the spotlight. That's why I am here instead of a thread on the sputum test.

I noticed the evasion you practice too in acknowledging anything, while staying on the attack. It bears a striking resemblance to manipulative tactics too.

*yawn* Inviting me to prove this is not true, and good madam this relentless game of staying on the attack and demanding I defend is one I am not playing with you. You are not that good.

I am not instructing you in BPD. Not sure where you got that idea. But wow are you defensive about it.

Thou hast a rather inflated opinion of one's self.

God has spoken? These symptoms here continue to bear striking resemblance to something...

Yes, your lordship.

How many times can you make the same elementary point? I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. It's the strawman again.

Hey, I acknowledge this point. You are saying that some people benefit from treatment, right? Other people don't. Is this concession to her highness sufficient? I mean, that's what is important, right? Making sure we defer to you?

My goodness, please find a mirror. You seen impervious to your own hypocrisy.

First of all, someone does the responsible thing in studying the problem and all you have is contempt with "you're no psychologist". Invalidate him, baby - yeah I get it.

I have had very warm correspondence with Dr. Simon including his compliments reviewing something I published myself. He has no disdain for people like you do. He has a website, and if you look at how he interacts with people, this is someone who gives a great deal of deference to common people who have read enough to get the thrust of a study area. He's not sneering at them about how they have no psychology Phd, and tut-tutting everybody with "every case is different" tautologies as if we were children.

Haha - hey Phil N - here is a little test, buddy. See any red flags?

I see lots of red flags here, but have no interest in attempting any diagnoses here. I just know when psychasthenia writes, I usually feel scolded, like I'm being attacked by someone with some sort of superiority complex, who is sure they have the answers, or know better where to find them, and the rest of us mere mortals are clueless idiots. I know this could be one feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), but it could just as easily be an overinflated ego that would be considered well within "normal".

I find your comments pointing out her rhetorical strategies (what some would consider "manipulation tactics") to be pretty much on point. I don't feel much give-and-take in what she writes; I feel primarily attack, criticism, and shaming, and "shoulding", or as one speaker said, "then they 'should' all over you".

Everything she said in her attempt at being helpful involved things I learned within a couple weeks of study, most of it within the first few days.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

It's hard to talk about this stuff without it becoming verbally awkward in a hurry.

I'm using some conventions from the "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (SWOE) book.

BP = Person with Borderline Personality Disorder. (suspected, in this case)

It does feel disrespectful and marginalizing to me, to refer to someone as "the BPD" or "the BP", because that's just one part of who they are. I agree in spirit with your lab rat comment, I just don't have a better way at the moment.

The SWOE book has a few paragraphs on the names and the rationale. The book "One Way Ticket to Kansas" also has some clever Wizard-of-Oz based terminology, like an "Ozzie" is a non-BP, i.e., person without BPD. "Oz" is the BP's version of reality, and "Kansas" is the "normal" reality that many non-BPs live in, or at least like to think we do.

Bipolar is pretty much "out" from my point of view. The cycles are much too rapid. I don't know if bipolar people "split" the way BPDs do; I just remember that after reading the DSM IV bipolar criteria, it didn't really fit.

I am going to try again to get her in for an assessment with a qualified professional. Haven't spoken to her since she did the 60mph steering wheel grab and yank that endangered three lives. I think after that extreme behavior on her part, endangering her *daughter's* life, not just mine, perhaps she got her own attention, and she might now realize this is a problem she needs to deal with. Or, yes, she might just blame it on me, that I *made* her so agitated that I *made* her do that crazy horrible thing.

you said the "cycles" are too rapid... my ex has rapid-cyclic bipolar disorder. Diagnosed. He's on medication for it. A psychologist friend suspects he might also have a bit of borderline personality but I only know for sure about the bipolar. So while I appreciate that you're trying to understand her, you simply aren't a professional and all the googling in the world won't do anything for her (she needs to make the decision herself) and won't do anything for you because you don't know "for sure" and it's just guesses.

As someone who lived with that... DON'T! Don't even try. It is soul-destroying and I hate him with a firey passion (granted he wasn't diagnosed until after we broke up but even with that, he's an a**hole who emotionally abused me for over a year before I was in a position to "escape"). If I wasn't worried about karma and drama I would email his current GF and tell her that she doesn't deserve the abuse (assuming he's doing to her what he did to me) but I'm sure his parents/family members are telling her the same things they were telling me so I think she's at least getting some support.

[nane1104 146]

It's hard to talk about this stuff without it becoming verbally awkward in a hurry.

I'm using some conventions from the "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (SWOE) book.

BP = Person with Borderline Personality Disorder. (suspected, in this case)

It does feel disrespectful and marginalizing to me, to refer to someone as "the BPD" or "the BP", because that's just one part of who they are. I agree in spirit with your lab rat comment, I just don't have a better way at the moment.

The SWOE book has a few paragraphs on the names and the rationale. The book "One Way Ticket to Kansas" also has some clever Wizard-of-Oz based terminology, like an "Ozzie" is a non-BP, i.e., person without BPD. "Oz" is the BP's version of reality, and "Kansas" is the "normal" reality that many non-BPs live in, or at least like to think we do.

Bipolar is pretty much "out" from my point of view. The cycles are much too rapid. I don't know if bipolar people "split" the way BPDs do; I just remember that after reading the DSM IV bipolar criteria, it didn't really fit.

You are doing it again! Those books might be great for someone dealing with a DIAGNOSED BPD person, but not to DIAGNOSE and TREAT your fiancee!!! Are you not aware of thedamage you can do if you continue going down this path???

I am going to try again to get her in for an assessment with a qualified professional. Haven't spoken to her since she did the 60mph steering wheel grab and yank that endangered three lives. I think after that extreme behavior on her part, endangering her *daughter's* life, not just mine, perhaps she got her own attention, and she might now realize this is a problem she needs to deal with. Or, yes, she might just blame it on me, that I *made* her so agitated that I *made* her do that crazy horrible thing.

What happened to "time to send her home"??? What has to happen before you get it? How is her daughter dealing with this, who takes responsibility to NOT have her live in this toxic environment!??

[Phil N 4]

What happened to "time to send her home"??? What has to happen before you get it? How is her daughter dealing with this, who takes responsibility to NOT have her live in this toxic environment!??

The MOTHER is responsible for the toxicity in her daughter's environment. She uses her daughter as a tool for (attempting) to manipulate me and others, whenever it's convenient for her. She will scold me for having even a minor argument with her, with her daughter present. However, she thinks nothing of screaming at me, cursing at me in her daughter's presence, and making fun of me in Russian to her daughter. So we have here a true double standard.

So DON'T EVEN go there; the MOTHER is creating the circumstances for her daughter and using her as a pawn for sympathy and manipulation purposes. The daughter is a great kid, and I looked at her as I would be gaining another daughter, who I would treat as my own. She also taught me a few things about dealing with her mother. Mostly, the mother has created circumstances that limit my time and involvement with the daughter, and has basically clung to the daughter and used her like a security blanket. Total role reversal; the mother should be the one comforting the child, not the child always having the responsibility to comfort the mother. So I think that situation might be creating a mess down the road for this girl.

I haven't seen or spoken with my fiancee since the night of the steering wheel grab, by now, 2 nights ago. I expect I will see her tonight...

[Dan and Judy 614]

Absolutely, the daughter is an innocent pawn here. We can't send them home now. The daughter would blame herself for the potato chip incident. She would spend the rest of her life blaming herself for getting both of them shipped back. That would probably screw up her ability to have a normal relationship with a man. Hey we have a responsibility here.

If they stay here I can at least help the daughter

Nature abhors a single man with two houses. Even if we told her she had to go back she wouldn't listen to us.

Ok so I let them stay in one house and I stay in the other.

If mom would just act normal and realize what a nice guy we are and I only want the best for her.

Ok so they are staying but that 90 day clock is ticking. I don't want to put her in the situation of living here illegally but at least that way

I wouldn't risk loosing half of everything I got. On the other hand this woman is just crazy enough to burn both our houses down. I'm just going to bite the bullet. Ok wait

I could give the houses to my adult children along with misc. other assets. I'm pretty sure I can trust them.

Then we can get married and I can devote my life to Mom and daughter worst case scenario, we would get divorced after she got her green card and I could let her stay in her house.

In a few years daughter can go out on her own with our help of course, then at least she can lead a normal life.

[nane1104 146]

The MOTHER is responsible for the toxicity in her daughter's environment. She uses her daughter as a tool for (attempting) to manipulate me and others, whenever it's convenient for her. She will scold me for having even a minor argument with her, with her daughter present. However, she thinks nothing of screaming at me, cursing at me in her daughter's presence, and making fun of me in Russian to her daughter. So we have here a true double standard.

So DON'T EVEN go there; the MOTHER is creating the circumstances for her daughter and using her as a pawn for sympathy and manipulation purposes. The daughter is a great kid, and I looked at her as I would be gaining another daughter, who I would treat as my own. She also taught me a few things about dealing with her mother. Mostly, the mother has created circumstances that limit my time and involvement with the daughter, and has basically clung to the daughter and used her like a security blanket. Total role reversal; the mother should be the one comforting the child, not the child always having the responsibility to comfort the mother. So I think that situation might be creating a mess down the road for this girl.

I haven't seen or spoken with my fiancee since the night of the steering wheel grab, by now, 2 nights ago. I expect I will see her tonight...

I'm giving up.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

I'm giving up.

Just now?? I keep reading because I am waiting for the news of the wedding...

[awkwardsoul 20]

IMO, Dan savage http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=9325437 would say "DTMFA". I'd shoot him an email or a call, lol.

I work in the mental health field. First off, it does suck when you think a person has a mental disorder as you think "Hey, this person can maybe get better and change". As before the mental health issue was discovered, it was just the person being horrible to deal with and one would of sent them packing. Now one can see it could be a fixable issue.

However, for that to change takes a lot of work, time, therapy, maybe drugs (that takes a long time to get the right drug and dosage) and money. If you don't want to go on that ride, ditch her and let her move on and find someone else who wants to take that ride. You should take care of your own mental well-being first. There's plenty of people out there that love the drama or built strong to take care of those types.

[Phil N 4]

IMO, Dan savage http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=9325437 would say "DTMFA". I'd shoot him an email or a call, lol.

I work in the mental health field. First off, it does suck when you think a person has a mental disorder as you think "Hey, this person can maybe get better and change". As before the mental health issue was discovered, it was just the person being horrible to deal with and one would of sent them packing. Now one can see it could be a fixable issue.

However, for that to change takes a lot of work, time, therapy, maybe drugs (that takes a long time to get the right drug and dosage) and money. If you don't want to go on that ride, ditch her and let her move on and find someone else who wants to take that ride. You should take care of your own mental well-being first. There's plenty of people out there that love the drama or built strong to take care of those types.

Every now and then, somebody posts something truly helpful. Thank you!

Yes, I can see it could be a fixable issue, MAYBE, with LOTS of work, and her DESIRE to acknowledge that part of the problem as hers and to do the work. I don't think I want to go on that ride. I think there are some serious underlying beliefs and habits and issues of hers that will never be workable for me, and will suck too much happiness out of life for me, without commensurate good things to make it worthwhile.

It's so easy to get sucked in by this woman. She has that talent, and at first, I tried to please and accommodate. I've been looking back through my notes from the visits to her country, emails we exchanged, notes I clipped from other men () who have been in relationships with BPD women, and I'm seeing the pattern more and more. I am seeing the chaos and expense and pulling me off my path that this has put into my life. Wow, I have put up with SO MUCH already, trying to make this work. I'm sure if I married her, it would just be more of same.

The risks are so high... here is one excerpt from a VJ man involved with a BPD woman. I really don't want this type of scene to be part of my future...

(puntaalta Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:01 AM)

I live in America 14 years applied for a Life act on 2002; my brother is a citizen. But lost all track of how is my case.

I had twin girls with my girlfriend she is a legal resident in february will turn citizen.

All this relations was with this up side downs I couldn't understand. Finally 2 years ago I got married and we where living togetther. She goes crazy again and evicted me from our residence with a Protection Order.i field fordivorse and custody. She has file PFAs before ALL DISMISSED, one of them she try to introduce 4 doctored picture showing a big brouse in her face, but the court found they were fraudulent.

I try to get my family together, but again could do it. Find my way with a therapist to learn she is an undisclosed Borderline Personality Disoorder (BPD)

While homeless, she took our children I have not seen our children seens 08/20/2010, stole all my personal property and can not get in my own apartment even the lease is in my name and she has it vacated cruely keeping me homeless.

I have so many court cases i can even look for a job, stress out and broke.

Some ideas please... what can I do?

[Dan and Judy 614]

IMO, Dan savage http://www.thestrang...ove?oid=9325437 would say "DTMFA". I'd shoot him an email or a call, lol.

I

However, for that to change takes a lot of work, time, therapy, maybe drugs (that takes a long time to get the right drug and dosage) and money. If you don't want to go on that ride, ditch her and let her move on and find someone else who wants to take that ride.

We have time and money and are not afraid of work, we will get her into therapy. We cannot dispose of her like a bag of garbage. She promised not to grab the steering wheel again. She completes us.

[Phil N 4]

Advice please...

I'm thinking about having my previous American girlfriend move in with me until this woman is gone. To help me maintain my sanity and close the door on anything involving my fiance. Good idea, bad idea, expect the house to be burned down?

It looks like, in about one week, my fiancee will be able to go stay with her best friend and her husband, long enough for me to arrange tickets back, etc.

I don't want to incur the expense to change the return tickets (now set for early October) until I have confidence in what this woman will do.

[san diego 407]

Advice please...

I'm thinking about having my previous American girlfriend move in with me until this woman is gone. To help me maintain my sanity and close the door on anything involving my fiance. Good idea, bad idea, expect the house to be burned down?

It looks like, in about one week, my fiancee will be able to go stay with her best friend and her husband, long enough for me to arrange tickets back, etc.

I don't want to incur the expense to change the return tickets (now set for early October) until I have confidence in what this woman will do.

I would think this is a bad idea. This is like a spit in person's face. Better choices would be:

1) Change tickets now despite the cost

2) Move to your girlfriends place

[Phil N 4]

I would think this is a bad idea. This is like a spit in person's face. Better choices would be:

1) Change tickets now despite the cost

2) Move to your girlfriends place

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel, that it would be too "in your face" to my fiancee, and might create unanticipated and dangerous problems.

Keep in mind that I'm in "Oz", that magical BPD-land I've been sucked into. I feel mentally and emotionally battered dealing with all this and it seems I don't even know which way is up. I'm just trying to get back to my normal life, normal routines, etc.

Here are some of what my options would appear to be for getting this woman (and unfortunately, her daughter too) out of my life:

An option that is not on the short list yet:

0) I currently have no confidence that if I changed the return tickets to a sooner date that she would use them. I honestly don't trust anything she says on this, unless I also hear it from her friend's husband, that this is what she wants to do, and she will actually use the tickets and leave. I wouldn't be surprised if she decided to stay in the USA illegally.

What I think are my actual options:

1) Go to court and get a temporary DV restraining order getting the fiancee out. I have enough "dirt" on her to do this. The fiancee and daughter would probably wind up in a women's shelter. I do feel this woman could do almost anything and that I should be concerned about my safety.

2) Ask the fiancee to live at my other house for a week, until her friends return, and she can go live with them.

3) Grin and bear it like it is for another week, until her friends return, and she can go live with them.

4) Have the girlfriend move into my house in the meantime, to drive home the point with the fiancee that there is no possibility of marriage, and to keep tabs on my house while the fiancee still lives there. And to help me maintain my sanity.

5) Go live in my other house for a week, and/or my girlfriend's house, until I can get my fiancee to move out.

6) I have another friend, in a larger city one hour away, who could put them up for a while. I would pay this friend to house them for a while.

In any case, I also need to discuss with my fiancee and clarify her plans for staying in USA, how long she plans to stay with her friends, and what I should change the tickets to. If I subsequently hear the same story from her friend's husband, then I'll go with it. She does not normally display her BPD side to him.

[Phil N 4]

I spoke with my fiancee at lunchtime today.

Paraphrasing her, yanking the steering wheel at 60mph was no big deal to her, and in fact was somehow justified.

In fact, she said, I refused to buy the large bag of chips for her daughter because I "hated" her drunken friend at the party earlier in the evening.

And, according to her, all that justified her yanking the steering wheel while I was driving 60mph down the freeway.

It is interesting to me that she connects these things in her head; feelings projected onto me were my reason for refusing to buy the large bag of chips and instead pointing to the smaller bags.

The alternate reality this woman creates just keeps getting scarier and scarier.

She would make me crazy (and already is).

She did say that her return tickets should be for about 2 weeks from now, because her daughter's school will start the first week of September. So that part is progress. She appeared to be sincere.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Phil N