Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[psychasthenia 9]

I was just about to write a message totally giving on up VJ for any further useful posts, and then you write this. Wow. Sincere thanks.

Yes, I agree PTSD is a strong possibility, even likelihood. There is more stuff like the drug addict ex in her background.

Maybe I'm wrong, and the PTSD is the major feature, and it triggers a latent and minor BPD tendency and set of behaviors in her. I don't need to humor you to see that your straw man theory is as plausible as any other, particularly the PTSD part. As far as "what if", well, at least I would know what I am dealing with, and be pointed in a more productive direction. It could even turn out that the "what you do about it" part is almost the same.

I'm not getting much out of the recent flurry of cynical armchair psychiatrist posts, but every now and then a true gem comes along, like this one from you. I will look at PTSD a bit more. She claims that she has never been physically abused in a relationship. I tend to believe her claims, because she is clever and skilled at getting others to do what she wants (what some would label "manipulative"). I have no doubt that she would be successful at getting many men in her life to behave like obedient little boys for her. She is a very strong woman in her own way. So for now I believe her claim of no physical abuse. However, I have to say, there was one time, when we were playing, I pretended as if I would slap her, and her reaction was one of immediate horror, anger, and "how dare you", instead of one of playfulness. So there could be something there as well, in past physical abuse. As the Russians say, "Ve trust, but ve verify."

PhilN, will you indulge me and respond how your diagnoses are going to help this woman? If you do find out that she meets criteria for PTSD, are you going to do exposure therapy to help her overcome her symptoms? Do you understand that diagnoses, when used legitimately by professionals, are used to help people? They inform treatments, they help professionals communicate with each other. How does it help you to diagnose your fiancee? Do you plan on learning about psychological treatments?

You seem to be very confused. You yourself seem to have a very inflexible way of approaching relationships. Think about that.

Edited August 5, 2011 by psychasthenia

[Phil N 4]

Yeah, I just might be required to surrender that title to you sooner or later...

I hear what you're saying about there being positive qualities in this woman but I have to say that it really doesn't sound like they outweigh the negatives.

During my 10 years as a divorced single father I walked away from a few relationships where there were positives that drew me to the woman but the negatives meant the I knew eventually the relationship would wear me down to the point that either I would no longer be myself or worse I'd grown to resent her and the relationship. In one of these relationships the mutual feelings were very strong and it ended-up taking 3 separate break-ups before we parted ways for good (and I did a couple of things at the final one to ensure she wouldn't seek me out again as I doubted my own resolve to stay away from her).

No relationship can fix either person. What it can do is enhance them. I know I'm with the right woman now because I'm a better version of me when I'm with her but that isn't to say I'm a different version of me.

Understand that you can never fix her. If she never gets better will you still be happy married to her in 10 years?

The real truth is that I'm only now just getting to know her. Same for her about me.

So the short answer to your wise questions is, "I don't know."

I feel the wisdom and experience in your words and I appreciate it very much.

I 1000% agree with the bit about knowing you're with the right woman when you are a better version of yourself with her.

If she never gets better, will I be happy with her in 10 years? Great question! First, I think she still needs more adjustment time so I see the "real her" more. Truly, it was only Monday and Tuesday of this week, where I felt the mask started to come off, and I started to really get to know her. The bottle of vodka we finished between us helped with the opening up and sharing. But I don't want it to always take a bottle of vodka. I need it to get to where there is great understanding and communication when fully sober. I knew that she would be a challenge, a handful, when I brought her over. I thought perhaps the rewards would be worth it. The jury is still out on that one. To answer your "10 years" question, it is the same test to me. Do I feel like a better version of myself, just because she is in my life? One of the things I like about her difficulties is that they force me to try to be a better man, to cope with her up-and-down emotions in an understanding way. Twisted, masochistic, whatever. I am finding I am getting better at communicating with her in a understanding and effective way, and it is getting easier, and she is becoming more enjoyable for me to be around.

I *think* that she's mostly bark and little bite when it comes to anything that would truly harm me. You know, how people will say graphic and colorful things in the moment about what they will do to others, but in fact, the talk was just for show, for emotional release, and their values and ethics keep them from actually following through on any of the bold-sounding stuff they say. I think that's how she is. But, I don't want to take that risk, and so if I have my life protected properly, I should be OK even if I'm wrong about that one.

[Phil N 4]

PhilN, will you indulge me and respond how your diagnoses are going to help this woman? If you do find out that she meets criteria for PTSD, are you going to do exposure therapy to help her overcome her symptoms? Do you understand that diagnoses, when used legitimately by professionals, are used to help people? They inform treatments, they help professionals communicate with each other. How does it help you to diagnose your fiancee? Do you plan on learning about psychological treatments?

You seem to be very confused. You yourself seem to have a very inflexible way of approaching relationships. Think about that.

No matter what I do, I'm wrong in your eyes. Should I just summarily send her back? She's a real person, and so is her daughter. She/they bet a lot on me in coming here in the first place.

By the way, it seems there is a very high rate of co-occurrence of BPD and PTSD. So there very well could be some of both.

What I've experienced, and what scares me, is the BPD "splitting" behavior, directed towards me. That is the one thing that truly scares me. I've also seen that splitting behavior directed at others.

In practical terms, the PTSD angle would be useful in getting her to participate willingly in diagnostic steps. It seems to me there is far less stigma attached to PTSD than to BPD. I recall on the TARA website a letter asking APA to change BPD off the Axis 2, to reflect that people with BPD do improve with modern therapy, lessen the stigma, and thus improve the diagnostic efficacy, and many other positive changes in how BPD sufferers are treated by "the system". So politics and money are at work in this area, just like all other areas of life. Would you call me manipulative for using potential PTSD as another reason to get her to willingly see professionals for proper diagnosis?

It seems to me you have a very inflexible way of looking at me. You seem to assume I'm always wrong, misguided, sinister motives, etc. Constantly judging me, in a negative way.

In any case, a diagnosis is used to inform a course of action. Recommended therapies, etc. A "real" professional diagnosis would be required to have my insurance help pay for any needed treatment, if I were to marry her. My desire would be to have my woman have a better and happier experience of life. Of course, it's purely for selfish reasons, so that she would choose to act in ways that also make my life better and happier. Another selfish man--I confess!

The alternative is to not try, to not learn, and to remain ignorant. Would that be a better course of action?

[HannahP 119]

The alternative is to not try, to not learn, and to remain ignorant. Would that be a better course of action?

Except that you're not really learning. You're judging. And pretending that your experience is somehow different or unique or special.

I honestly don't know what you're trying to do. To me, it seems like you're painting a picture of the "perfect" BPD relationship and your struggles. So you're...what? the perfect victim in this relationship?

[Phil N 4]

Except that you're not really learning. You're judging. And pretending that your experience is somehow different or unique or special.

I honestly don't know what you're trying to do. To me, it seems like you're painting a picture of the "perfect" BPD relationship and your struggles. So you're...what? the perfect victim in this relationship?

Well, here you are judging me, and very harshly, while complaining about my judging. Consider that.

So to you, I'm simply repeating a pattern you've seen where non-BPs judge a person with BPD, thinking they understand the BP, when the reality is they're still clueless? And not just clueless, but badly clueless? And seeing that happen over and over again is simply maddening? Like an overused cliche... they think are new... ? In your opinion, what should I be paying attention to about her, that I'm not seeing? How am I thinking about her in the wrong way?

I am never a victim, sweetheart. That's the whole point for me, to be in charge of my own destiny, and never a victim. If bad things happen, it's because I chose the path that resulted in those things. But when good things happen, as they often do, that's very sweet as well. And yes I know you're not my sweetheart. But it sounded catchier. What am I trying to do? To find a path to a highly functional and happy relationship with this woman, if such a thing can be possible for us. I know that with my and her present understanding of each other, it could seem unlikely to some. But I am not ready to give up yet.

"It is the evening of the day

I sit and watch the children play

Doin things I used to do

They think are new

I sit and watch

As tears go by"

(m. jagger/k. richards)

[TBoneTX 45,361]

Twisted, masochistic, whatever.

I won't say a thing, except to ask why these words were included.

I *think* that she's mostly bark and little bite when it comes to anything that would truly harm me. You know, how people will say graphic and colorful things in the moment about what they will do to others

I have always used this benchmark as a sign that a relationship was immediately and permanently over, and I was very grateful to learn it early.

if I have my life protected properly, I should be OK even if I'm wrong about that one.

If you're wrong about that one, you could wake up one morning with your throat cut.

There comes a time to quit manipulating and abusing the laboratory rats and set them free.

[AmyWrites 593]

So you're diagnosing her with various psych conditions, you're talking to your ex's... and you expect her to lay every night spread eagle on your bed? You're surprised she got violent?

It sounds to me like your brought her here as for a housemaid/housewh*re. Give her some time. She's in a new country, and as a girl who moved to a Russia, it's REALLY DIFFICULT, AND DIFFERENT. It's completely selfish of you to expect her to be farting rainbows in happiness and joy while not only is she in a new country, she came here for YOU, and you don't seem to be too eager to marry her!

That being said, while RUB people are cold (hey, I'm Hispanic, so, anything short of 24/7 hugs is cold to me), they are pretty warm and affectionate to people they care about, and sleeping alone if married/in a relationship is downright absurd to them. When my Russian guy and I have argued, even if we're still angry at each other, sleeping in different rooms is still out of the question.

It seems to be like she's utterly terrified of this new situation, and you're not helping her at all. Forget shopping and sex. Talk to her, hug her. Be there for her.

You said you don't know her too well... unfortunately, you decided to file for a K-1 anyway. Imagine how she feels, being brought her on a K-1, under the idea that you loved her and would marry her, and now you're not sure? She might be manipulating you through sex, but if a man did that whole rollercoaster with me, I'd be worse. Then again her rushing into marriage sounds like she just wants a GC.

Either way, I think you're both in a bad, but mutually beneficial relationship: you get sex from someone attractive and someone who cleans, and she gets her GC, because frankly, it sounds like there neither of you particularly care much less love each other. So break up before it's too late, or accept a love less marriage. Forget blaming someone, it's just the fact that you two don't love each other, and rushed into this process.

Edited August 6, 2011 by AmyWrites

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I won't say a thing, except to ask why these words were included.I have always used this benchmark as a sign that a relationship was immediately and permanently over, and I was very grateful to learn it early.If you're wrong about that one, you could wake up one morning with your throat cut.

There comes a time to quit manipulating and abusing the laboratory rats and set them free.

I smell an MCAT

[nane1104 146]

I smell an MCAT

It was about time for a new MCAT, didn't we miss the drama?

OP, have you ever asked yourself if your fiancee was behaving the way she does if she was with another man? You are so stuck on having her at "fault" by SOME mental issue (and it seems like you don't care what it is, as long as you can diagnse her with something)!

If this is your third possible marriage, I think it is time to take a deep look at yourself and what issues you bring to the table instead of trying to fix her.

With the right guy, your fiancee might be an angel.

[106206 15]

Moderator: given this post is not about "Moving Here and your New Life in America" should it not be moved to "Off Topic"...?

That way the forum can stay focused on the topics intended.

[Amanda and Josh 12]

Who says she still wants to marry YOU after the way YOU have been behaving?

Edited August 6, 2011 by Amanda and Josh

[xocanin 0]

Wow... and I just told someone yesterday that VJ was drama-free!

[TracyTN 237]

Good, my first sentence got one! Yes, two good days in a row ought to be enough to know I can count on her love and devotion for life! ;-)

So you're not marrying her then?

Otherwise there is some schizo behavior going on as well.

[TBoneTX 45,361]

there is some schizo behavior going on as well.

Oh, but T., then you'd be guilty of diagnosing someone shrinkologically!

[Phil N 4]

Posted 06 August 2011 - 06:38 AM

View PostTBoneTX, on 06 August 2011 - 01:43 AM, said:

I won't say a thing, except to ask why these words were included.I have always used this benchmark as a sign that a relationship was immediately and permanently over, and I was very grateful to learn it early.If you're wrong about that one, you could wake up one morning with your throat cut.

There comes a time to quit manipulating and abusing the laboratory rats and set them free.

I smell an MCAT

The MCat reference is flattering, but for drama and sheer "Huh? Really?" factor, I think MCAT may have set the bar too high even for me to top. Not to mention I have no desire to do so...

UPDATE:

The events this weekend really took the cake.

Saturday night (Sunday near 1am) I was driving back from visiting her best friend (from her country, and married to USA man for 2+ years) and the best friend's husband. Much vodka had been consumed. (Except not by me, I was stone cold sober, I am the driver) My fiancee and her daughter in the car. Everything seemed good. Her favorite music was playing on the car stereo, she was swaying and singing. With 30 minutes driving left until arriving home, we stopped for bathroom and snacks at a gas station convenience store. Her daughter grabbed a giant bag of potato chips for a snack. I said no, take one of the smaller bags. I attempted to explain to the daughter that only a small bag (at 1/3 the price) was necessary for the trip home. (We have $250 of groceries, snacks, etc. at home from shopping trips this week) I got scolded by mom and told I had to buy two smaller bags now, as my punishment for refusing. I refused to do that as well. They went to the car. In the interest of domestic peace, I decided to just buy the large bag and went to the car and handed that to the daughter, and off we went. Two minutes down the road, my fiancee started exclaiming how she will not marry me, she came to this country absolutely normal and in love with me, and essentially I have driven her crazy. Then she erupted into a full-blown, toddler-esque temper tantrum. She started beating her bare feet on the car dashboard, and pounding her fist on the dashboard as well, and SCREAMING, "I hate you! I hate your f---ing country!! I hate your house!!" I did not respond, and kept driving. A few moments later, she more calmly said, "You hate my friends, don't you?! Yes, you hate my friends. You hate everything about them." The truth is that I consider her friends husband a dear friend of mine, and I have no issues with her friend, and simply want them to be together to support each other. I also thought this seemed like BPD projection, attributing to me thoughts and feelings I do not have, that are a projection of her own intense feelings (about something else) onto me. I tried to remember the communication approach for dealing with this. I asked her what makes her think I hate her friends? I don't remember her answer. I told her that the visit was what I expected from her friend, and I do not hate them or anyone, and I had enjoyed the evening. A few moments later, she again erupted into a full-blown, toddler-esque temper tantrum, beating her bare feet on the car dashboard, and pounding her fist on the dashboard as well, and SCREAMING, "I hate you! I hate your f---ing country!! I hate your house!!" Again I did not respond, and kept driving.

We were going 60 MPH down a major freeway. She then GRABBED THE STEERING WHEEL, YANKED IT SIDEWAYS, AND THE CAR SWERVED WILDLY. I quickly got control of the steering wheel back, and righted the car. I pushed her hands away, to the passenger side. I SCREAMED at her, "How dare you endanger my life, and the life of your child??!! There are THREE lives in this car, not just yours!!!" Her daughter began yelling at her in Russian, scolding her mother, from the back seat.

I took the next freeway exit, and she seemed to have settled down. No apparent apology or remorse, but she promised not to grab the steering wheel or pound on the dash.

I drove the remaining 30 minutes home without incident. I then left the house, and have not been back yet.

Endangering my life (and her daughter's life) crossed a line with me. I don't think I can work with or make excuses for this woman any more.

TBoneTX, the prospect of waking up (NOT!) with my throat cut just became a little more real... time to send her home.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Phil N