Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Phil N 4]

Phil, all the people in this thread that are suggesting you leave are doing so not because your fiance has BPD, in fact, until she is diagnosed, we shouldn't say she does, it's completely unfair to her. Especially considering the recent events and stress she's under, we'll all just agree that she has some personality flaws. Such as hitting you, manipulating you, swearing at you, threatening to claim under VAWA....

Those are the reasons for you to NOT be in a relationship with her...

Not to mention your issues with trying to fix her... if you can't love her the way she is, why do you think you could love her if she changed? (Even by accepting the "fact" as you put it of her BPD, or even humouring it as a possibility?) Okay, so maybe you can change and then make it work, again, if it's not working unless one of you changes, then it's not working.

Humour me for a minute here, what if you find a psychiatrist willing to see your fiance to see if she meets the diagnosis of BPD, or any other personality disorder for that matter, as, in posting the diagnostic criteria, it doesn't seem to appear that she meets enough to be diagnosed with this disease. What if the psychiatrist finds that she does not have BPD, but has PTSD instead, which given your backstory of her ex with the suicide, I now find far more likely than BPD. Will you then abandon trying to fix her, knowing that there is nothing "wrong" with her, and that she just has trust issues and anxiety?

If you feel like you can love her and be with her if she gets this BPD diagnosis, but what if she doesn't? What if she has no medical reason for treating you like ####### when she first came? What if it was just a gut reaction on her part to a man that made her feel uncomfortable and objectified? What if she felt the situation gettting out of her control and she was trying to assume some control for her own sanity? Asking for sex as if it was a given, then putting in a porn movie to watch when it was rejected would make me very uncomfortable. I would likely try to assume some kind of control, just so I could feel like I wasn't losing any.

Feeling out of control, or unable to control a situation that feels bad is a very scary thing for people who have been in bad past relationships like hers. I know I can't stand feeling out of control, and it's the one thing that can turn me into a royal ###### while I take back control. I don't have BPD, but I do identify with your fiance. I think you should look up how abusive relationships can affect the survivor. She may not have been beaten, but living with an addict beats you down just the same. Outliving the addict leaves you both relieved and guilty that you couldn't help them, but happy they're dead just the same. Anything that feels like you're letting your future go into someone else's hands, when you don't trust the person, can make you turn into a control freak. I'd just walk, she chose to turn into a disaster for you. Look up PTSD in abused spouses, it may be far more helpful than this armchair session you're conducting with strangers.

I still think that your relationship is doomed to fail. She doesn't trust you, and you don't trust her. Regardless of any diagnosis, there will always be that.

I was just about to write a message totally giving on up VJ for any further useful posts, and then you write this. Wow. Sincere thanks.

Yes, I agree PTSD is a strong possibility, even likelihood. There is more stuff like the drug addict ex in her background.

Maybe I'm wrong, and the PTSD is the major feature, and it triggers a latent and minor BPD tendency and set of behaviors in her. I don't need to humor you to see that your straw man theory is as plausible as any other, particularly the PTSD part. As far as "what if", well, at least I would know what I am dealing with, and be pointed in a more productive direction. It could even turn out that the "what you do about it" part is almost the same.

I'm not getting much out of the recent flurry of cynical armchair psychiatrist posts, but every now and then a true gem comes along, like this one from you. I will look at PTSD a bit more. She claims that she has never been physically abused in a relationship. I tend to believe her claims, because she is clever and skilled at getting others to do what she wants (what some would label "manipulative"). I have no doubt that she would be successful at getting many men in her life to behave like obedient little boys for her. She is a very strong woman in her own way. So for now I believe her claim of no physical abuse. However, I have to say, there was one time, when we were playing, I pretended as if I would slap her, and her reaction was one of immediate horror, anger, and "how dare you", instead of one of playfulness. So there could be something there as well, in past physical abuse. As the Russians say, "Ve trust, but ve verify."

[Phil N 4]

Seriously? After all that has happened, and the behaviors she's exhibited (not to mention your problems with said behaviors), you've had two good days and now think marriage is a good idea? I guess you can't save people from themselves sometimes. Or the impending train barreling their way.

Good, my first sentence got one! Yes, two good days in a row ought to be enough to know I can count on her love and devotion for life! ;-)

[Phil N 4]

There have been enough cynical armchair psychologist posts lately, and these aren't really helping anything.

VJ really isn't the best place to conduct this type of discussion. But, every now and then a gem comes along that makes it worth wading through the other stuff.

Please, if you just want to attack me, or her, with sarcasm, there are already plenty of those posts in this thread.

Real people are involved, and the reality is always far more complex than what can be effectively communicated in this type of forum.

Thoughtful contributions are always appreciated.

[2tallbill 4]

cRaZy women can be found everywhere just as can men without spines.

My advice?

Take the girl and daughter to the airport with one way tickets back to Odessa

Do NOT pass go and do NOT collect $200 dollars. DO IT TODAY, RIGHT NOW !!!

My prediction?

1. He will ignore all my advice and try to fix a girl with a broken mind

and or character.

2. He will marry the girl and his life will be hell

3. He will get accused of domestic violence, spend at least one night in jail

and spend years paying for this and forever whining about it.

[Stuart and Thea 95]

Not all abuse is physical Phil... it all beats you down just the same...

[Phil N 4]

cRaZy women can be found everywhere just as can men without spines.

My advice?

Take the girl and daughter to the airport with one way tickets back to Odessa

Do NOT pass go and do NOT collect $200 dollars. DO IT TODAY, RIGHT NOW !!!

My prediction?

1. He will ignore all my advice and try to fix a girl with a broken mind

and or character.

2. He will marry the girl and his life will be hell

3. He will get accused of domestic violence, spend at least one night in jail

and spend years paying for this and forever whining about it.

Your prediction could turn out correct with one incorrect part:

"...and forever whining about it"

There would be no whines from me, ever. Why whine about something I chose and went into with my eyes open? And I'd like to think that if everything went that badly South, I'd pull the plug and protect myself from total destruction. Indeed, that's part of my focus now, is, "how can I mitigate the risk of having this woman destroy my life?" You see, this girl also has an amazing upside. Things could turn out brilliant, fantastic, prosperous, loving, etc. I'm not ready yet to give up on that part. That was why I brought her here in the first place.

I did lose everything 8 years ago in a high-conflict divorce, a wife of nearly 20 years. My failure then was in not protecting myself, and not believing my partner could do such things to me. I knew we would divorce someday, but always assumed that when we did, we'd work together for the good of our children. WRONG. She worked to try to destroy me and to try to cut me out of our children's lives. On top of that, the family court and divorce process was extremely abusive to me, extremely biased against fathers, and very damaging to my 3 children, especially my oldest daughter. But the problem was that I was totally unprepared and unprotected for that scenario. I'd like to think that I could avoid most of the downside and just return to a single life again if things went badly. Actually my next desire is to find or start a useful thread for men on protecting themselves from psycho-spouse.

If there are existing VJ threads anyone knows of that are full of good, practical information for K1 sponsors, about how to protect themselves from having their lives destroyed by a partner turned psycho, I would appreciate seeing links to those. For example, I do not know what the consequences are for a man if his spouse files a VAWA 360 petition. How does that affect the man's life and future? What about prenup (or postnup) agreements? I pretty much know the protections I want and need, and am willing to give her some things as well. My understanding is that any prenup now, by definition, would be invalid, as it would be construed that I pressured her into it as a condition of marriage. A postnup would be considered valid though, if she had her own attorney to consult. Basically, what I want is my primary residence to be all mine, my retirement pay to be all mine (I will set up retirement accounts for her), and to pre-agree on settlement for nearly all issues that could spiral into an out-of-control, expensive, life-damaging high conflict divorce. One of those in my life has been enough.

[cdneh 3,112]

It beggers belief that you would even come close to considering marrying a person with whom you have such issues.

Here you are, now worried about keeping what is yours yours, your retirement, about having your life destroyed, about the consequences of divorce.

If that doesn't tell you anything I dunno what will.

Justify this train wreck anyway you like, you are making an enormous mistake if you proceed.

[Dan and Judy 614]

I know this is parody, but the scary thing is it almost sounds plausible and reasonable, LOL!!

FYI, Stepmom is 4'9", maybe even 4'6" by now. Fiancee is 6'0". But they do both have black hair, and both smoke, so your theory appears to be spot-on for that as well. ;-)

Using logic and reason to maintain control, well, sorry, that's where your theory goes to heck in a handbasket. As if. To quote a speaker I once heard, "I used to think we humans are 80% logical and 20% emotional. Now I know the truth is that we are ALL 100% emotional. When someone says they are being logical, that simply means they have more emotion attached to attempting a logical analysis than to any other course of action."

Thank you for the analysis though. It's actually much better thought out and more plausible than many serious suggestions people have made.

You are going to Marry her.

All of this analysis ####### is your effort to use logic and reason to maintain control.

You are not in control and neither is she. And neither one of you is going to be in control.

You are trying to "come up with a reason" to think you can be in control, that you can manage her.

You are going to find that reason and you are going to marry her.

She will love you and need you and hate you and punish you and you will enjoy it in your own way.

If she was used to getting beaten she would flinch when you raised your hand, not get offended.

While we're on that subject, You have serious masochistic tendencies.

Next time she is mad at you tell her she can spank you. You'll love it, She'll love it. that will be your reason

You may as well get it over with.

All of the advice telling you to run is correct but if you were capable of taking that advice, this would have been

a 20 post thread ending with "She is on her way home"

No charge for the spanking advice, My license is expired

[Eric-Pris 1,606]

I would delay getting married for a month or so and see what goes down!

Good sound advice, I agree.

OP,

Don't let her pressure you into a quick marriage. If she's so eager to get married, there are probably some alterior motives. Your sixth sense has already kicked in and you are sensing trouble. Trust your instincts. Don't fall for the "she's nervous" #######. Trust me, I bet she knows exactly what she's doing. This kind of beginning usually ends up badly.

Personally, she'd be packed up and on the plane by day 7 if it were me. I'm not into playing manipulation games.

[Marilyn. 340]

Seriously? After all that has happened, and the behaviors she's exhibited (not to mention your problems with said behaviors), you've had two good days and now think marriage is a good idea? I guess you can't save people from themselves sometimes. Or the impending train barreling their way.

I was thinking the same thing until i read the next paragraph and I realized he was being sarcastic..lol

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I did lose everything 8 years ago in a high-conflict divorce, a wife of nearly 20 years. My failure then was in not protecting myself, and not believing my partner could do such things to me. I knew we would divorce someday, but always assumed that when we did, we'd work together for the good of our children. WRONG. She worked to try to destroy me and to try to cut me out of our children's lives. On top of that, the family court and divorce process was extremely abusive to me, extremely biased against fathers, and very damaging to my 3 children, especially my oldest daughter. But the problem was that I was totally unprepared and unprotected for that scenario.

I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze you or anything, I just want to ask a simple question or two:

Why would you enter into a marriage that you knew would end in divorce?

My second question is, Why would you want to repeat that mistake especially given the fact that eight years later you are still licking the wounds from the first go-around?

In my life I've known many people who seem to always be in the middle of chaos and can't figure out why, I used to be one of those people.

Eventually I realized that I was doing things to bring chaos into my life. You see I grew-up in chaos and as much as I hated being in the middle of it something in me found comfort there.

Finally I made a choice to reduce the chaos in my lief and it happened!

[Eric-Pris 1,606]

Phil,

You ask about pretecting yourself from the impending doom (which you seem to realize is coming), and yet you are considering going further with this woman?

If you can see that fact, we might as well just get married now since you can't see something that's right in front of your eyes. And even if you can protect your assets fairly well, is it worth going through the mess of another divorce to prove to yourself that you're not a quitter?

[Phil N 4]

I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze you or anything, I just want to ask a simple question or two:

Why would you enter into a marriage that you knew would end in divorce?

My second question is, Why would you want to repeat that mistake especially given the fact that eight years later you are still licking the wounds from the first go-around?

In my life I've known many people who seem to always be in the middle of chaos and can't figure out why, I used to be one of those people.

Eventually I realized that I was doing things to bring chaos into my life. You see I grew-up in chaos and as much as I hated being in the middle of it something in me found comfort there.

Finally I made a choice to reduce the chaos in my lief and it happened!

Your sig says, "Resident Crazy on VJ", so am I giving you some competition now?

With my first ex, we married at age 21. I did NOT go into it expecting it would end. About 10 years in, I realized we were incompatible in many ways, but we still made it last almost another 10 years. I stayed in it because I wanted to be the father to my children that I didn't have in my life. I have been successful in that. I have three terrific and very successful young adult children.

I would not be marrying this woman with the plan or expectation it would end. Quite the contrary. The expectation is that this is the last time, the forever one. The reality of my life is that this is marriage #3, and some marriages do end. So why not work for the best, but prepare for the worst? I simply want to be able to walk away and start over if needed, without irreparable damage. There is no reason any woman I marry is entitled to half of everything I have worked for in my life, over the claims of my children. Family court and the divorce *industry* are a predatory operation. They prey on the unprepared. So it is my responsibility to be prepared and protected from the predators.

[Phil N 4]

Phil,

You ask about pretecting yourself from the impending doom (which you seem to realize is coming), and yet you are considering going further with this woman?

If you can see that fact, we might as well just get married now since you can't see something that's right in front of your eyes. And even if you can protect your assets fairly well, is it worth going through the mess of another divorce to prove to yourself that you're not a quitter?

I would protect myself even if it seemed to be a marriage made in heaven.

The simply act of preparing properly can prevent a lot of problems and remove many of the incentives that drive the corrupt divorce industry.

If it were a marriage made in heaven, I say my partner would want me to feel safe and protected, so that I could give myself fully to the relationship.

I don't need to prove anything to myself, but this woman does have some wonderful positive qualities that are the reason I brought her here.

I haven't given up yet. Perhaps I am foolish and hard-headed.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Your sig says, "Resident Crazy on VJ", so am I giving you some competition now?

Yeah, I just might be required to surrender that title to you sooner or later...

I hear what you're saying about there being positive qualities in this woman but I have to say that it really doesn't sound like they outweigh the negatives.

During my 10 years as a divorced single father I walked away from a few relationships where there were positives that drew me to the woman but the negatives meant the I knew eventually the relationship would wear me down to the point that either I would no longer be myself or worse I'd grown to resent her and the relationship. In one of these relationships the mutual feelings were very strong and it ended-up taking 3 separate break-ups before we parted ways for good (and I did a couple of things at the final one to ensure she wouldn't seek me out again as I doubted my own resolve to stay away from her).

No relationship can fix either person. What it can do is enhance them. I know I'm with the right woman now because I'm a better version of me when I'm with her but that isn't to say I'm a different version of me.

Understand that you can never fix her. If she never gets better will you still be happy married to her in 10 years?