Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[nane1104 146]

Good Lord, your "diagnosis" isn't even confirmed! If you think she is BPD, why haven't you taken her to a doctor yet? Or were you trying to "heal" her yourself as well??

Maybe, after all you told us you have been through yourself, you need an assessment yourself, and I don't mean that in an evil way.

For the sake of you, her and her daughter, let them go back home, this can only go downhill from here.

[Phil N 4]

With everything I have learned, I am now almost certain that my "wicked stepmother" is also a BPD.

Perhaps this is a clue - you are still considering the possibility of marrying your 'wicked step-mother' and reliving your horrid childhood all over again. Sounds like a dream come true.

That's a new one!! Did I ever say my childhood was horrid??!! I certainly did not. Childhood for me was wonderfully great in some ways, not so great in other ways.

The wicked stepmother entered my life at age 13, acting phony-sweet to me as she and my father courted. I next saw her again at age 17, when I went to live with them after high school, and that's when the wickedness truly started towards me.

I am thankful for the many VJ posters who have made thoughtful contributions here. I hope there will be more of those posts, and fewer uninformed, cynical, dismissive comments.

Actually your post was not so bad, just misinformed. It's the dismissive name-callers who offer the least. Yes, let's call him or her a name, put a label on them, and not have to give serious thought. Hint: There are real people involved here. I do understand that part of the appeal is the trainwreck titillating drama here, that it sells. So I'll take the name-calling along with the thoughtful posts. Please keep them coming, especially the thoughtful ones.

[Phil N 4]

Good Lord, your "diagnosis" isn't even confirmed! If you think she is BPD, why haven't you taken her to a doctor yet? Or were you trying to "heal" her yourself as well??

Maybe, after all you told us you have been through yourself, you need an assessment yourself, and I don't mean that in an evil way.

For the sake of you, her and her daughter, let them go back home, this can only go downhill from here.

I am working on getting her in for an assessment; if she doesn't go, there is no possibility I will marry her.

Remember that a BPD experiences their life as "normal", and telling a BPD that they are not normal will not be well received. Since they see themselves as normal, they be absolutely convinced that you must me the one with the problem.

Isn't it true that we all try to "fix" ourselves through our choice of partners, to have a "whole" that is better than the individuals alone? Why would I be different? So that is the key question here. Will the resulting "whole" be better, yield more happiness for all involved, than the individuals separately?

[HannahP 119]

Oh no, not the "troll" thing again! Are you a troll by asking me that? How would you feel if you were in the middle of this mess?

In dealing with a BPD, one of the #1 things they say is to "stay connected" to external reality and other people, so as not to get totally sucked into the BPD's world. The connections with people here are helping me beyond belief. Can you let go of the troll thing already?

As someone with BPD, I have been in the middle of VERY MANY messes. That I've caused, usually.

I just don't get it. You're not married to this woman. You have no particular reason to be married to this woman. Why is she still in your life, other than for the drama factor? You mention the train-wreck factor but you're the one perpetuating it.

Although, honestly, I'd be pissed off if I was your wife -- your "OMG someone with BPD does this and that and blah blah" comments. You sound like you've discovered a new species of animal -- but people with BPD are human, too. (Assuming that your wife has BPD and isn't just a raging ###### and/or used you for a visa.)

Again, assuming your wife really does have BPD, you need to make clear decisions and enforce firm boundaries. You aren't doing any of this.

I do find this whole thread very enlightening as to what people who read about BPD think and the reality of what someone who has BPD actually experiences.

[Phil N 4]

As someone with BPD, I have been in the middle of VERY MANY messes. That I've caused, usually.

I just don't get it. You're not married to this woman. You have no particular reason to be married to this woman. Why is she still in your life, other than for the drama factor? You mention the train-wreck factor but you're the one perpetuating it.

Although, honestly, I'd be pissed off if I was your wife -- your "OMG someone with BPD does this and that and blah blah" comments. You sound like you've discovered a new species of animal -- but people with BPD are human, too. (Assuming that your wife has BPD and isn't just a raging ###### and/or used you for a visa.)

Again, assuming your wife really does have BPD, you need to make clear decisions and enforce firm boundaries. You aren't doing any of this.

I do find this whole thread very enlightening as to what people who read about BPD think and the reality of what someone who has BPD actually experiences.

Fantastic! And thank you for posting, and sharing your informed and firsthand point of view. Yes, you are just you, and not an animal in a cage to be poked and prodded at by curious tourists like in a zoo. I'm sure it gets old. It frustrates me when others dismiss her as "she's a BPD, and all BPD's are evil..." instead of looking at her as a real person. I see enough of a core of true goodness in her, and many good qualities, and excellent capabilities. If nothing else, perhaps you can give me credit for working very hard to learn. And for believing that a person with (potentially) BPD could still be a very good partner. At least I know I'm ignorant. Having to know it all would be too big a burden for me to carry.

Yes, of course my fiance was pissed off. How could she not be?

And I absolutely don't think she set out to "use" me for a green card. A couple days ago, I asked her again why she chose me. She told me she was impressed when I pointed out that we are polar opposites on one popular personality assessment, and I suggested that we could meet in the middle, on those areas where we differ. This appealed to her in a way that nobody else managed to. I was actively looking for a woman who is my polar opposite on that particular assessment, or at least close to it. And during my visits in her country, she apparently decided I was also the one man who could cope with her up and down behavior, emotional outbursts, etc.

Right or wrong, the BPD explanation explains all her otherwise incomprehensible (to me) behavior almost perfectly. The communication skills I have learned for communicating with BPDs seems to be very helpful and to yield much more harmonious relations than my natural responses.

And what messes have you created? She has created many messes in her life, that I am learning more and more about.

I would very much appreciate hearing more of your thoughts about this whole matter. Whether here in this thread, or in private messages. I am still a puzzled Ozzie, trying to learn, and to still spend the majority of my time in Kansas.

[Phil N 4]

And yes, I have made many clear decisions and provided enough firm boundaries. One clear decision was to continue to let it ride and to keep learning. My clear decision was that as long as her engagement ring (one of her "constant objects") is still on her finger, everything is still open for discussion, and there is still a possibility for a good outcome. Might I remind you that I DIDN'T marry her, despite intense manipulation efforts on her part, to achieve a quick marriage? And I have dealt with one after the other BPD-like "countermoves". And I have set VERY CLEAR boundaries with her involving physical violence, and that she is not allowed to hit me or otherwise use physical violence.

[nane1104 146]

I am working on getting her in for an assessment; if she doesn't go, there is no possibility I will marry her.

Remember that a BPD experiences their life as "normal", and telling a BPD that they are not normal will not be well received. Since they see themselves as normal, they be absolutely convinced that you must me the one with the problem.

Isn't it true that we all try to "fix" ourselves through our choice of partners, to have a "whole" that is better than the individuals alone? Why would I be different? So that is the key question here. Will the resulting "whole" be better, yield more happiness for all involved, than the individuals separately?

My brother is diagnosed with BPD, so I don't really need an explanation about the symptomatic. And I would never call him "not normal", that sounds terrible and does not do him or the illness justice.

You might think you "got it", but the way you're talking about your fiancee and her symptoms and your way of dealing with it all, is sickening to me.

I also disagree with your other statement. No, we don't all try to "fix" ourselves through our choice of partner. I think we want a partner who complements us, but not "fix" us. What a burden that would be!

While I have to agree that I am happier when my husband is with me, I wasn't unhappy or in some form of mental low before I met him and I would be very sad if I had to rely on him for my happiness...plus, I'd not want that burden on him to always make me happy.

Sure, there are situations in life where you need your partner to be there, cheer you up, lift you up, but overall, I think you need to find your own happiness.

I know nobody here is going to change your mind, you will have to do what you think is right but I hope it's not ending in a complete desaster for all of you.

[theViking 0]

Update:

I have had the BPD conversation with her. She appears to be sincerely considering the BPD assessment.

Her first reaction was that "I" must have it and she would do the assessment if I did it first.

I have been using many of the skills and strategies from "Stop Walking On Eggshells" and "One Way Ticket to Kansas".

Something that has given amazing results is recognizing when she is projecting her fears and emotions onto me, and acknowledging HER underlying emotion, that is being expressed in the attempted attack on me. This seems to defuse her anger and result in her then opening up about the real issue, and her fears and her feelings. Also, I encourage her to feel and express her emotions, without judging her. We have had amazing conversations the last couple nights, yes, with the help of a bottle of vodka between us to dull her emotions (and my inhibitions) a little, but do what works.

She responds very well to sincere praise and appreciation for her good points and good actions. She has many, many good things about her, so it's not that hard to find a few. For example, she is an amazing, frugal shopper who gets incredible value for money. She does not waste my money. She also finds a lot of joy in simply being in the kitchen and preparing meals.

She is very self-aware in her own way. I told her that she rearranges the facts and events in her head to match her emotions. To my surprise, she acknowledged and agreed with me on this! So I've largely stopped trying to point out to her when she is incorrect about facts, sequence of events, etc., and to just respond to her underlying emotions instead. This is giving MUCH better results than pointing out to her where she is inventing things that didn't happen. She has openly discussed her "police" remarks, and explained how she was feeling and where that came from. (It made sense to me, from her point of view, though it still scared the sh-- out of me, and I will continue to have it in the forefront of my mind)

I have learned a LOT about her history the past few nights. Her history, as best as I can read between the lines, is that she does NOT try to hurt others and go berserk in relationship breakups. This is MY analysis of her stories, not her self-serving statements. I have learned a lot of her secrets (and told her many of mine). I learned more about the widow situation. She is not really a widow. The situation was more that a heroin-addicted boyfriend committed suicide by overdose, on a night when they argued and she left him over his drug habit. He pleaded with her to stay with him that night, and the next day he was found dead. She blames herself for this. For almost a year, she tried to help him beat his habit, arranged 3 different rehab clinic stays for him, spent large amounts of her money trying to help him get clean.

She has done nothing to damage me or my possessions, since the one outburst, even though she has had many, many chances. If she was trying to "act" to get a green card, she would conduct herself in a very different way. I believe she was sincere in her intentions in coming here. Intimate life is almost beginning to approach normal.

In a shocker to me, she has made peace with a lifelong best friend who she had previously "split" and had not spoken to for a year. She reached out to the friend.

The hardest part is that coping with her BPD behaviors requires extra effort, and takes some of the joy out of being around her. This has been improving, possibly due to me improving in how I respond to her.

This does NOT mean I am going to marry her. It means only that I am going to continue learning BPD-related mindsets and skills for communicating with her. We are closing in on 30 days out of the 90-day window.

So is this a mind-blowing thing to read, or what? Of course, it could all change tomorrow, I could be "split" again at any moment...

AS EACH DAY PASSES YOU ARE GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE POINT OF NO RETURN. YOU HAVE BEEN DULY ADVISED AND WARNED. PROCEED ENTIRELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. WHATEVER FINANCIAL ASSETS YOU HAVE WILL BE GONE BEFORE YOU KNOW IT. YOUR SANITY WILL BE GONE. YOU WILL WEEP TO THE GODS AS YOU WONDER WHY YOU DID NOT TAKE HEED OF ALL THE RED FLAGS WHICH WERE PLACED ON THE PATH TO YOUR OWN DESTRUCTION.

[san diego 407]

I cannot believe this thread is still going on...

[Golden Gate 530]

My opinion is just that psycho-analyzing your spouse is really not a healthy thing. My Dad is a psychologist and we got enough psycho-analyzing at home growing up. It seems that you are treating her in this way, and to me that is a co-dependent relationship, not a healthy relationship. Even I felt my parents had some issues in this regard. That's why I made that comment. It seems that this is something you are somewhat used to because you have had some experience similar to this with your step-mom, and so it seems you are trying to work that out now with your potential spouse, and personally I think that a husband and wife relationship shouldn't require this amount of work. Someone eventually will end up bitter. In this case, maybe both of you need to seek therapy on your own to deal with your individual issues. You don't solve your problems through your significant other, that is co-dependency.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Golden Gate

[Golden Gate 530]

My opinion is just that psycho-analyzing your spouse is really not a healthy thing. My Dad is a psychologist and we got enough psycho-analyzing at home growing up. It seems that you are treating her in this way, and to me that is a co-dependent relationship, not a healthy relationship. Even I felt my parents had some issues in this regard. That's why I made that comment. It seems that this is something you are somewhat used to because you have had some experience similar to this with your step-mom, and so it seems you are trying to work that out now with your potential spouse, and personally I think that a husband and wife relationship shouldn't require this amount of work. Someone eventually will end up bitter. In this case, maybe both of you need to seek therapy on your own to deal with your individual issues. You don't solve your problems through your significant other, that is co-dependency.

You obviously have some things to work out about yourself, you have mentioned that. Doing that through your spouse is not a healthy thing.

[HannahP 119]

I would very much appreciate hearing more of your thoughts about this whole matter. Whether here in this thread, or in private messages. I am still a puzzled Ozzie, trying to learn, and to still spend the majority of my time in Kansas.

The last sentence still makes me think you're an elaborate troll. I make a "we're not animals" comment and you respond with a Dr Livingstone, I presume remark? Really?

People with BPD are highly different. BPD tends to be divided into sections -- I am highly impulsive and self-destructive, but have very close and long-lasting interpersonal relationships. Others have problems with maintaining relationships. etc. I believe I've already talked about this -- both in this thread and elsewhere. No need to repeat myself.

This whole thing is just...blah. to me.

[Phil N 4]

My brother is diagnosed with BPD, so I don't really need an explanation about the symptomatic. And I would never call him "not normal", that sounds terrible and does not do him or the illness justice.

You might think you "got it", but the way you're talking about your fiancee and her symptoms and your way of dealing with it all, is sickening to me.

I also disagree with your other statement. No, we don't all try to "fix" ourselves through our choice of partner. I think we want a partner who complements us, but not "fix" us. What a burden that would be!

While I have to agree that I am happier when my husband is with me, I wasn't unhappy or in some form of mental low before I met him and I would be very sad if I had to rely on him for my happiness...plus, I'd not want that burden on him to always make me happy.

Sure, there are situations in life where you need your partner to be there, cheer you up, lift you up, but overall, I think you need to find your own happiness.

I know nobody here is going to change your mind, you will have to do what you think is right but I hope it's not ending in a complete desaster for all of you.

I'm learning. If you have a brother with BPD, then you have more experience with the related behaviors than me. What is it you find sickening about my way of dealing with it? Do you think I should just write her off and close the book? I've been attacked here from both sides, attacked by people who think I'm an idiot for not bailing immediately on a (likely) BPD, and then attacked on the other side, by BPD/family members who think I'm being insensitive, ignorant, sickening, etc. They do say that no good deed goes unpunished.

By the way, I haven't made up my mind yet either. So even I have no idea how all this will end.

I am particularly interested in the comments from people who either have BPD or have a close family member or spouse with it. That would be you. So, would you advise any woman who was thinking about marrying your brother to run, run in the other direction as fast as possible? Or is there some type of woman for whom he would be an excellent partner? How do you see BPD affecting a marriage with him? How would you see BPD affecting a marriage between me and this woman? Should I run for the hills NOW, and why? Or might I end up with a fantastic partner and relationship? I am truly interested in your thoughts here.

We don't disagree about relationships, but you dislike the word "fix", and you are probably right about poor word choice. The point of a relationship is to be happier IN the relationship than you would be without it.

[Phil N 4]

The last sentence still makes me think you're an elaborate troll. I make a "we're not animals" comment and you respond with a Dr Livingstone, I presume remark? Really?

People with BPD are highly different. BPD tends to be divided into sections -- I am highly impulsive and self-destructive, but have very close and long-lasting interpersonal relationships. Others have problems with maintaining relationships. etc. I believe I've already talked about this -- both in this thread and elsewhere. No need to repeat myself.

This whole thing is just...blah. to me.

Actually my fiance made a similar comment, long before I suspected BPD. She told me she felt like a zoo animal on display.

If it makes you feel better to call me names (troll), please, go for it, knock yourself out.

Yes, I am sure that there are a lot of different flavors of BPD. Your comments here remind me of exactly the way she might say certain things. So I'll go check out some other threads.

Is it always going to be this hard dealing with a person with BPD? That's what I worry about, is that it would just be exhausting all the time, and wear me down, and take the fun out of life. You're being both very helpful and a bit difficult at the same time. I really just want life to be FUN most of the time. Is it possible for a person with BPD to be in a place where life is FUN a lot of the time? Or can I expect to have most of the fun sucked out of my life by this (likely) BPD woman, and I'd just have to feel lucky for whatever fun I get?

[Golden Gate 530]

If you are asking these kinds of question, I think that you need to talk to a professional yourself and find out what is really happening in this situation.

Trying to figure out how two people will be, based on two other people's relationship isn't a way to go about it. This isn't a find the right shape and plug it in until it fits type of situation. I think that's why it comes off as repulsive to other people when you keep trying to get answers that no one here can really answer for you.

It is a fact that you really have no diagnosis of this condition. You are at the very beginning of your relationship with this person and already you have this extraordinarily complex situation. You are trying to solve it by communicating what I would consider personal things on a public website. I would never talk about my spouse or fiance on a website in this manner. Our personal lives are confidential, and I think most people feel that it is appropriate to handle such things with delicacy and discretion.

Mental health professionals have a code of ethics which prohibits them from discussing the issues of their patients. Although you are not a mental health professional, I think that somehow this feels like some kind of violation.

The fact that you aren't having fun with this person, doesn't necessarily reflect that something is wrong with that other person - it is the dynamic between the two of you which is wrong.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Golden Gate