When are they going to fire the guy that got us into this mess?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I've been stuck on the 10th amendment here, which provides that state's can only pay their debts in the form of gold and silver.

The tenth amendment states no such thing. Having been stuck on it all day and it being only a single sentence, you should've noticed that.

[mawilson 2,133]

The tenth amendment states no such thing. Having been stuck on it all day and it being only a single sentence, you should've noticed that.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Ok I have read this before and it does say this but by not forbidding it and the Supreme court has affirmed that banks can print money.

He's referring to Article I Section 10 which talks about what the states of the union are not allowed to do. States can't make anything but coins of gold or silver a tender in payment of debts. It says nothing about there being any such restriction on the union.

But for anyone that disagrees, I'll happily take those unconstitutional greenbacks that I'm sure you do not care to have.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

The tenth amendment states no such thing. Having been stuck on it all day and it being only a single sentence, you should've noticed that.

as i said, it's been a long ####### day...

Article I, Section 10...

happy now?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

BTW: You can thank the Templars, for creating banknotes, with the idea that you didn't have to travel with all your gold and silver, to and from Palestine, for a fee, of course.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Article I, Section 10...

happy now?

Article I, Section 10 does not say that all our money must be coined from gold and silver.

No State shall ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts...

But I do renew my offer to lift whatever burden of unconstitutional money you happen to have off of you. Just trying to help a fellow American have a cleaner conscience.

[luckytxn 2,264]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases

Legal Tender Cases

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Legal Tender Cases were a series of United States Supreme Court cases in the latter part of the nineteenth century that affirmed the constitutionality of paper money. In the 1870 case of Hepburn v. Griswold, the Court had held that paper money violated theUnited States Constitution. The Legal Tender Cases reversed Hepburn, beginning with Knox v. Lee and Parker v. Davis in 1871,^[1]and then Juilliard v. Greenman In 1884.^[2]

The Legal Tender Cases primarily involved the constitutionality of the Legal Tender Act of 1862 enacted during the Civil War.^[3] InHepburn, Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase held for a 4-3 majority of the Court that the Act was an unconstitutional violation of the Fifth Amendment. Ironically, Chief Justice Chase had played a role in formulating the Legal Tender Act of 1862, in his previous position as Secretary of the Treasury. On the same day that Hepburn was decided, President Ulysses Grant nominated two new justices to the Court, Joseph Bradley and William Strong, although Grant later denied that he had known about the decision in Hepburn when the nominations were made.^[4] Bradley and Strong subsequently voted to reverse the Hepburn decision, in Knox v. Lee and Parker v. Davis, by votes of 5-4. The constitutionality of the Act was more broadly upheld thirteen years later in Juilliard v. Greenman

Contents

[hide]

• 1 Legal Tender Act of 1862
• 2 Background about constitutionality of paper money
• 3 Original intent and original meaning
• 4 How money is issued in the U.S. today
• 5 See also
• 6 References
• 7 External links

[edit]Legal Tender Act of 1862

The Legal Tender Act of 1862 was enacted to issue paper money to finance the Civil War without raising taxes.^[5] The paper money depreciated in terms of gold and became the subject of controversy, particularly because debts contracted earlier could be paid in this cheaper currency.^[6]

[edit]Background about constitutionality of paper money

Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution explicitly forbids the states from issuing "bills of credit" (paper or "fiat" money) or making anything but gold and silver coin "legal tender", whereas there are no corresponding explicit prohibitions against the federal government, nor any explicit authorization. The Tenth Amendment refers to reserved powers that only the states can exercise, as well as powers not delegated that continue to reside in the people. "Concurrent powers" also exist, which may be exercised by either the states or the federal government, such as the power to repel invasions, and arguably including power to make legal tender (e.g. in federal territories or elsewhere). Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution specifically gives Congress power to "borrow money" and also power to "coin money" and "regulate the value" of both U.S. and foreign coins, and regulate interstate commerce, but does not explicitly and unambiguously grant Congress the power to print paper money or make it legal tender.

The federal government began issuing paper money long before the Legal Tender Act of 1862. In 1791, the First Bank of the United States began issuing paper bank notes,^[7] and Congress had also authorized paper money (e.g. continentals) even before the Constitution was adopted. The Continental was issued by both the individual states and the Continental Congress under the Articles of Confederation. Those Articles specifically allowed the issuance of legal tender paper money, at the time called "bills of credit."^[8]

In 1798, Vice President Thomas Jefferson wrote that the federal government has no power “of making paper money or anything else a legal tender,” and he advocated a constitutional amendment to enforce this principle by denying the federal government the power to borrow.^[9] Even if Jefferson's suggested amendment had been successful, still (as mentioned above) Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the additional power to "regulate the value" of both U.S. and foreign coins. According to Justice Stephen Field, dissenting in the Legal Tender Cases, Congress had no power to make paper money a legal tender, but he believed "the Constitution says that Congress shall have the power to make metallic coins a legal tender."^[1]

[edit]Original intent and original meaning

Originalists like Robert Bork have disclaimed any desire to enforce the private intentions of those framers who may have believed that paper money should be prohibited: "Scholarship suggests that the Framers intended to prohibit paper money. Any judge who thought today he would go back to the original intent really ought to be accompanied by a guardian rather than be sitting on a bench."^[10]

Regarding paper money, Nathaniel Gorham explained at the Constitutional Convention that he "was for striking out" an explicit power of Congress to issue paper money, but Gorham was also against "inserting any prohibition."^[11] That is what ultimately happened at the Convention: language explicitly giving the federal government power to issue legal tender paper money was removed on a vote of 9-2, but an option allowing the issuance together with a prohibition against making it legal tender was not acted upon. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress power to "borrow money on the credit of the United States," and therefore Gorham envisioned that "The power [e.g. to emit promissory paper], as far as it will be necessary or safe, is involved in that of borrowing."^[12] The power to emit paper money (e.g. bank notes) has been justified by invoking the Necessary and Proper Clause in combination with the other enumerated powers which include the power to borrow money.^[13] The power to "issue bills of credit" (paper money) is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution as a prohibition on the States, and could therefore be interpreted as a power so momentous that it would have to be conferred explicitly on the federal government rather than inferred from the Necessary and Proper Clause, although it is not entirely clear whether or not the framers intended such an interpretation, nor did the Supreme Court adopt such an interpretation in the Legal Tender Cases or subsequently.

James Madison's notes, from the Constitutional Convention in 1787, include a footnote where he says that the Constitution would allow the federal government to make "use of public notes as far as they could be safe & proper", but would not allow the federal government to use paper as currency or legal tender, though there is no indication whether or not all the contents of his footnote were uttered aloud at the Convention.^[14]

Thereafter, during the ratification debates, the Federalist Papers #44 (assumed to be authored by James Madison) discussed Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution which limits the powers of the states. Madison stated that "the prohibition to bills of credit must give pleasure to every citizen, in proportion to his love of justice and his knowledge of the true springs of public prosperity." He further stated that the issuance of paper money has resulted in "an accumulation of guilt, which can be expiated no otherwise than by a voluntary sacrifice of the power which has been the instrument of it."^[15]

[edit]How money is issued in the U.S. today

Main articles: Legal tender, Federal Reserve, and Federal Reserve NotePaper money is a form of currency that is physically printed by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, under authority of the Federal Reserve System. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing is part of the U.S. Treasury Department, whereas the Federal Reserve is not. In contrast to paper money, coins are physically produced by the U.S. Mint, within and under authority of the U.S. Treasury. The Federal Reserve System can authorize as much paper money as it sees fit, but the U.S. Treasury is restricted by law to a certain maximum amount of coinage in circulation.

The Federal Reserve System can increase the money supply by creating money to purchase U.S. Government securities on the open market. Those "open market operations" involve the buying and selling of U.S. government securities, including federal agency securities and also (in response to recent economic turmoil) mortgage-backed securities.^[16] Federal agency securities have beenissued by the federal government to finance deficit spending. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution explicitly contemplates U.S. Government "securities."

The Federal Reserve System can also increase the money supply by allowing banks to issue more loans, which is accomplished by reducing the reserve requirement ratio. This regulation of banks is pursuant to the Commerce Clause.

Conversely, the Federal Reserve System can reduce the money supply by selling securities or by increasing the reserve requirement ratio.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Article I, Section 10 does not say that all our money must be coined from gold and silver.

No State shall ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts...

But I do renew my offer to lift whatever burden of unconstitutional money you happen to have off of you. Just trying to help a fellow American have a cleaner conscience.

i said that in my previous post....

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

i said that in my previous post....

No, you didn't. You said:

according to the constitution, all of our money must be coined from gold or silver.

That's not true. The Constitution has no such provision.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Now since banks are allowed to print money all they want they can buy all the treasuries offered. So the debt the country incurs determines the money supply.

Now who here thinks that the Federal reserve is a United states federal office? If you think it is a office of the Federal government then which department does it belong to?

[luckytxn 2,264]

All I could find about what the Feds are allowed is that are given the OK to mint coin. They are allowed to borrow money. Debts of credit can be used as money.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

No, you didn't. You said:

That's not true. The Constitution has no such provision.

try again...

re-look at the one i misspoke on the 10 amendment - http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/319465-when-are-they-going-to-fire-the-guy-that-got-us-into-this-mess/page__view__findpost__p__4781250

which provides that state's can only pay their debts in the form of gold and silver.