decision based on ??

[pushbrk 12,890]

ok, so what is considered to be "big age difference"? I am older than my husband. I am 42 and my husband is 35. Will that be considered "big" age difference?

I would say that how much of a red flag that would be depends on whether he is Muslim, has been married before and if you are divorced with children. It's a combination of things but one factor that mitigates somewhat in your favor is that you are still of child bearing age. The primary combination of factors that goes against the common culture is for a Muslim male, childless and not married before to marry a divorced woman too old to bear his children. Going too much against the culture tends to scream that the relationship is for immigration purposes. Overcoming that loud scream is not easy, particularly when working with the highest fraud Consular unit in the world. Time spent together in person is the most powerful evidence of a bona fide relationship.

[tirzaray 4]

As a U.S. citizen, I am glad they are looking into fraudulent cases, especially "red flags" where there is a big age difference. Although it should be one they look into, but the reality is that not all applies to petitions, couples. I have been in this relation for sometime, 4 yrs. Did not meet online, met while I was on a visit to MOROCCO so might I add that is was not a convenience on his behalf. And yes, I strongly agree that men do use women for their visa purposes especially Morocco, Algeria and other places but the fact remains that it is the 10% that do not and unfortunately i feel strongly that we do not fall in the other 90...

<br />I would say that how much of a red flag that would be depends on whether he is Muslim, has been married before and if you are divorced with children.  It's a combination of things but one factor that mitigates somewhat in your favor is that you are still of child bearing age.  The primary combination of factors that goes against the common culture is for a Muslim male, childless and not married before to marry a divorced woman too old to bear his children.  Going too much against the culture tends to scream that the relationship is for immigration purposes.  Overcoming that loud scream is not easy, particularly when working with the highest fraud Consular unit in the world.  Time spent together in person is the most powerful evidence of a bona fide relationship.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

He was previously married and so was I.

[tirzaray 4]

Does anyone know the names of those moroccan consulate interviewers? One with initial RIS, something like that?

[KittyPollitt 284]

I think it's been overlooked that this was a K1 visa application. Casablanca has a history of arbitrarily denying these applications, even without a large age difference or other red flags. From the pattern they have shown, it is done as a "test" of the relationship- if they have any doubt of the beneficiary's commitment to the petitioner, they'll deny just to see if he stays long enough to see a review or a second petition through. The sad fact is that they don't really have to give much detail as to a reason. All they have to say is "no bonafide relationship", and the petition is on it's way back to USCIS for a year or to expire.

OP, there's really no sense in focusing solely on the age issue as a reason for the denial. They cannot legally discriminate against you based on it, and they will never state that age was a factor in their decision, even if it was the sole factor. The most constructive thing you can do now is to prepare for a possible rebuttal, or (if the K1 petition expires before review, which it most likely will) another trip to Morocco to marry your fiance, so that you can apply for a CR1 visa. This, along with formulating a plan to strengthen your case in the long run (by giving them no red flags to deny for, there are ways of overcoming the age issue). Begin by preparing affidavits from both your family and his regarding the relationship, and possibly a letter from him addressing the age issue directly, and how he feels about it (keeping in mind the CO's assumed position on the issue). Take a moment to step back from your emotions about what happened, and use the energy from those emotions to get stuff done.

We're all here for you.

Sarah

[tirzaray 4]

Yes, we talked about it and emotions have to be left out, you are right. I am prepared to do whatever it takes. If marrying him is the only solution it obviously will have to wait another couple of months till I can take vacations which will be in December SINCE I am a teacher. I should have been there but it was too expensive for me, but thank you...

[pushbrk 12,890]

Yes, we talked about it and emotions have to be left out, you are right. I am prepared to do whatever it takes. If marrying him is the only solution it obviously will have to wait another couple of months till I can take vacations which will be in December SINCE I am a teacher. I should have been there but it was too expensive for me, but thank you...

Marrying is a first seemingly major step but not the major solution. The major solution is to live together as husband and wife for some significant time abroad. Are you prepared to do that? For how long?

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

People should be careful to compare what is considered a red flag in Casablanca and what is considered a red flag in other countries. They are often widely different.

I mentioned Vietnam in my previous post only to point out that the format of the denial slips is different from those in Casa, but if I were to focus on the specific red flags at the consulate in Vietnam they would bear little resemblance to the ones at the consulate in Casa. In Vietnam it's considered compulsory to have a traditional engagement ceremony followed by a large party with guests often numbering in the hundreds. Not having one of these costly affairs is quite often a deal breaker for either a K1 or a CR1 visa. There's nothing even remotely similar in Casa. On the other hand, the petitioner and beneficiary being different religions (often Christian and Buddhist) is not the least bit unusual in Vietnam, where it can be a deal breaker in Casa. A large age difference in Vietnam is a very minor red flag. It's a huge red flag in Casa, especially if elder fiancee is a woman past or near the end of her child bearing years. One of the most important reasons for marriage in Islamic culture is to produce children.

In a nutshell, personal opinions about the relevance of a large age difference, and comparisons with countries other than Morocco, are practically useless. The OP is dealing with the consulate in Casablanca, and a large age difference with an older female petitioner IS a red flag at that consulate.

[abdelnish83 6]

this is true my fiance tells me that moroccan men don't commonly marry much older and especially divorced women. it can happen, but most of them don't and will just use the woman. disclaimer: those were not my words, so no one get mad at me.

I would say that how much of a red flag that would be depends on whether he is Muslim, has been married before and if you are divorced with children. It's a combination of things but one factor that mitigates somewhat in your favor is that you are still of child bearing age. The primary combination of factors that goes against the common culture is for a Muslim male, childless and not married before to marry a divorced woman too old to bear his children. Going too much against the culture tends to scream that the relationship is for immigration purposes. Overcoming that loud scream is not easy, particularly when working with the highest fraud Consular unit in the world. Time spent together in person is the most powerful evidence of a bona fide relationship.

[Peace.... 281]

Well I cannot say much as I still am learning each and every day about Islam from my husband. However, my husband seems to disagree about this age difference issue since we are 15 years a part. To say that Moroccan men or the muslim culture do not marry older women is a generalization. My husband says let me show you some proof about our Prophet Mohammed. When people hear that the prophet had many wives they conclude without much thought that the prophet was a sensuous man. However, a quick historical review of his marriages, proves otherwise.

(quote)

When the PROPHET MOHAMMED was twenty-five years old he married for the first time. His wife, Khadijah, was fifteen years older than he. She remained the only wife of the prophet for the next twenty-five years, until she died (may Allah be pleased with her).

Only after her death, did the prophet marry other women. Now, it is obvious that if the prophet was after physical pleasure he did not have to wait until he was more than fifty years old to start marrying more wives. He lived in a society in which it was quite acceptable to have many wives. But the prophet remained devoted to his only wife for twenty-five years. When she died she was sixty-five years old.

His later marriages were for various reasons. Some marriages were with the view to help the women whose husbands had been killed while they were defending their faith. Others were with a view to cement relationships with devoted followers like Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Yet others were to build bridges with various tribes who were otherwise at war with the Muslims. When the prophet became their relative through marriage, their hostilities calmed down, and much bloodshed was averted.

*********

So after reading this, I find myself wondering why there is so much generalization amongst others from non muslim countries about this age difference topic when clearly there Prophet Mohammed married a much older woman. As far as children, there is nothing in the Koran that says bearing children is a must. Children are encouraged in any religion and every society and from an islamic prospective, there is nothing that says YOU MUST marry a woman to bare children. I cannot have any more children and my fiance knew this when we were dating and this was never an issue for us and he is a wonderful step dad to my daughter.

Most of the CO's that live in a muslim country know the history behind the Prophet Mohammed and his older wife, so why in the world would they hold this against muslim men???? marrying older woman when their Prophet did the same thing.

Any ways, my husband was disturbed about this age difference topic and I am just listening to what he is saying.

[tirzaray 4]

I cannot stay with him any longer than 2 weeks in December but in the summer starting June will be for about 2 months. Again, his 1st marriage was indeed an american woman, he was 21 at that time but she ended up by anullment without letting him know!

Marrying is a first seemingly major step but not the major solution. The major solution is to live together as husband and wife for some significant time abroad. Are you prepared to do that? For how long?

[tirzaray 4]

Thank you, hopefully more people can understand the issue. Further,, I know about fradulent cases and it's good they monitor them...

Well I cannot say much as I still am learning each and every day about Islam from my husband. However, my husband seems to disagree about this age difference issue since we are 15 years a part. To say that Moroccan men or the muslim culture do not marry older women is a generalization. My husband says let me show you some proof about our Prophet Mohammed. When people hear that the prophet had many wives they conclude without much thought that the prophet was a sensuous man. However, a quick historical review of his marriages, proves otherwise.

(quote)

When the PROPHET MOHAMMED was twenty-five years old he married for the first time. His wife, Khadijah, was fifteen years older than he. She remained the only wife of the prophet for the next twenty-five years, until she died (may Allah be pleased with her).

Only after her death, did the prophet marry other women. Now, it is obvious that if the prophet was after physical pleasure he did not have to wait until he was more than fifty years old to start marrying more wives. He lived in a society in which it was quite acceptable to have many wives. But the prophet remained devoted to his only wife for twenty-five years. When she died she was sixty-five years old.

His later marriages were for various reasons. Some marriages were with the view to help the women whose husbands had been killed while they were defending their faith. Others were with a view to cement relationships with devoted followers like Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Yet others were to build bridges with various tribes who were otherwise at war with the Muslims. When the prophet became their relative through marriage, their hostilities calmed down, and much bloodshed was averted.

*********

So after reading this, I find myself wondering why there is so much generalization amongst others from non muslim countries about this age difference topic when clearly there Prophet Mohammed married a much older woman. As far as children, there is nothing in the Koran that says bearing children is a must. Children are encouraged in any religion and every society and from an islamic prospective, there is nothing that says YOU MUST marry a woman to bare children. I cannot have any more children and my fiance knew this when we were dating and this was never an issue for us and he is a wonderful step dad to my daughter.

Most of the CO's that live in a muslim country know the history behind the Prophet Mohammed and his older wife, so why in the world would they hold this against muslim men???? marrying older woman when their Prophet did the same thing.

Any ways, my husband was disturbed about this age difference topic and I am just listening to what he is saying.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Well I cannot say much as I still am learning each and every day about Islam from my husband. However, my husband seems to disagree about this age difference issue since we are 15 years a part. To say that Moroccan men or the muslim culture do not marry older women is a generalization. My husband says let me show you some proof about our Prophet Mohammed. When people hear that the prophet had many wives they conclude without much thought that the prophet was a sensuous man. However, a quick historical review of his marriages, proves otherwise.

(quote)

When the PROPHET MOHAMMED was twenty-five years old he married for the first time. His wife, Khadijah, was fifteen years older than he. She remained the only wife of the prophet for the next twenty-five years, until she died (may Allah be pleased with her).

Only after her death, did the prophet marry other women. Now, it is obvious that if the prophet was after physical pleasure he did not have to wait until he was more than fifty years old to start marrying more wives. He lived in a society in which it was quite acceptable to have many wives. But the prophet remained devoted to his only wife for twenty-five years. When she died she was sixty-five years old.

His later marriages were for various reasons. Some marriages were with the view to help the women whose husbands had been killed while they were defending their faith. Others were with a view to cement relationships with devoted followers like Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Yet others were to build bridges with various tribes who were otherwise at war with the Muslims. When the prophet became their relative through marriage, their hostilities calmed down, and much bloodshed was averted.

*********

So after reading this, I find myself wondering why there is so much generalization amongst others from non muslim countries about this age difference topic when clearly there Prophet Mohammed married a much older woman. As far as children, there is nothing in the Koran that says bearing children is a must. Children are encouraged in any religion and every society and from an islamic prospective, there is nothing that says YOU MUST marry a woman to bare children. I cannot have any more children and my fiance knew this when we were dating and this was never an issue for us and he is a wonderful step dad to my daughter.

Most of the CO's that live in a muslim country know the history behind the Prophet Mohammed and his older wife, so why in the world would they hold this against muslim men???? marrying older woman when their Prophet did the same thing.

Any ways, my husband was disturbed about this age difference topic and I am just listening to what he is saying.

The excuse "It was ok for Muhammad" has been tried at the consulate in Casa. It doesn't work. Just because Muhammad did something does not make it religiously or culturally normal for other Muslims to do it, and some of the things Muhammad did are specifically forbidden for other Muslims to do. For instance, the Quran explicitly sets a limit on the number of wives a Muslim man may have at four, and also specifically makes an exception for Muhammad, who had more than twice this number. Yes, Khadija was 15 years his elder at the time of their marriage. Conversely, Aisha was more than 40 years his younger. His marriage to Aisha was more typical of Arab culture at the time since Aisha was just entering her child bearing years. By a quirk of fate, Khadija bore him a daughter, Fatimah, while Aisha never bore any children.

Anyway, the consular officers in Casa do not apply the Quran in determining whether a relationship may or may not be primarily for the purpose of evading immigration law. They apply an understanding of the local social customs. In spite of the Prophet's marriage to Khadija, it's not typical for a young muslim man in Morocco to marry a much older woman. While age differences are not unusual, it's usually the male who is older.

[Peace.... 281]

The excuse "It was ok for Muhammad" has been tried at the consulate in Casa. It doesn't work. Just because Muhammad did something does not make it religiously or culturally normal for other Muslims to do it, and some of the things Muhammad did are specifically forbidden for other Muslims to do. For instance, the Quran explicitly sets a limit on the number of wives a Muslim man may have at four, and also specifically makes an exception for Muhammad, who had more than twice this number. Yes, Khadija was 15 years his elder at the time of their marriage. Conversely, Aisha was more than 40 years his younger. His marriage to Aisha was more typical of Arab culture at the time since Aisha was just entering her child bearing years. By a quirk of fate, Khadija bore him a daughter, Fatimah, while Aisha never bore any children.

Anyway, the consular officers in Casa do not apply the Quran in determining whether a relationship may or may not be primarily for the purpose of evading immigration law. They apply an understanding of the local social customs. In spite of the Prophet's marriage to Khadija, it's not typical for a young muslim man in Morocco to marry a much older woman. While age differences are not unusual, it's usually the male who is older.

Hi Jim, I understand that the consulate does not apply the Quran in determining whether or not to give a visa or not, but I just don't see the big deal when it comes to age difference in Morocco. My husband would have been the first to tell me if that was the case when we started chatting 3 years ago, as he is dedicated to his culture and beliefs.

Jim, I guess it really all depends in the person falling in love. We love and fall in love for many reasons, and I am so happy to have found this wonderful man that loves me the way a woman should be loved. I cannot generalize anyone for loving someone, its a beautiful thing.

[pushbrk 12,890]

The excuse "It was ok for Muhammad" has been tried at the consulate in Casa. It doesn't work. Just because Muhammad did something does not make it religiously or culturally normal for other Muslims to do it, and some of the things Muhammad did are specifically forbidden for other Muslims to do. For instance, the Quran explicitly sets a limit on the number of wives a Muslim man may have at four, and also specifically makes an exception for Muhammad, who had more than twice this number. Yes, Khadija was 15 years his elder at the time of their marriage. Conversely, Aisha was more than 40 years his younger. His marriage to Aisha was more typical of Arab culture at the time since Aisha was just entering her child bearing years. By a quirk of fate, Khadija bore him a daughter, Fatimah, while Aisha never bore any children.

Anyway, the consular officers in Casa do not apply the Quran in determining whether a relationship may or may not be primarily for the purpose of evading immigration law. They apply an understanding of the local social customs. In spite of the Prophet's marriage to Khadija, it's not typical for a young muslim man in Morocco to marry a much older woman. While age differences are not unusual, it's usually the male who is older.

This is an excellent explanation. Consular Officers consider the circumstances on the ground today, in the present tense.

[Peace.... 281]

I would say that how much of a red flag that would be depends on whether he is Muslim, has been married before and if you are divorced with children. It's a combination of things but one factor that mitigates somewhat in your favor is that you are still of child bearing age. The primary combination of factors that goes against the common culture is for a Muslim male, childless and not married before to marry a divorced woman too old to bear his children. Going too much against the culture tends to scream that the relationship is for immigration purposes. Overcoming that loud scream is not easy, particularly when working with the highest fraud Consular unit in the world. Time spent together in person is the most powerful evidence of a bona fide relationship.

I believe your statement about time being spent together is the best evidence one can have. Honestly, during my fiance's interview, he was never asked about our age (15) year age difference in a bad way. The CO looked at my picture and said she doesn't look her age and her blue eyes are pretty (that was it about age). The CO never asked about my daughter and my divorce either. So if I had all the red flags, how come we were not denied. I didn't even have a full time job and never worked for 12 years prior to his interview. If anyone was going to be denied, it would have been for sure us, cause as VJ says we had all the red flags going against us. What could the CO have seen in us with all the red flags as those who are denied with only a few little things.... I just don't get it.