Jump to content

43 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Filed: K-1 Visa Country: Singapore
Timeline
Posted

Extreme Hardship

To start, you should submit as much information as possible to show that your family members (US Citizen or LPR petitioning for benefit) will suffer extreme hardship. Extreme hardship is not easy to prove. This proof must be submitted by the US Citizen or LPR from their perspective (how it creates extreme hardship for them -- not the intending immigrant). The items below are just general ideas and are not an inclusive list. The extreme hardship must be proven by the US Citizen / LPR petitioning for the benefit and be written by them (that includes everything listed below). Make sure everything submitted is notarized by the US Citizen.

Documents that may help show extreme hardship:

Letters from your US Citizen / LPR spouse, children parents which discuss your relationship, how long your relationship has existed, what you bring to the relationship and how that family member would suffer if you are deported. For example, your spouse could discuss how you met and how long you have been together. She could discuss what you contribute to the relationship, both financially and emotionally. How you are as a husband, father and son. If your children are old enough to write, they can also submit letters. Other family members such as parents, in-laws, siblings can also write letters to discuss the effect on the effected family members.

Health Reasons: Letters from doctors of the US Citizen or LPR that describe your role or part in their treatment (ex: daily care giver at home). This can be important to show any possible extreme hardship that would result from your absence.

If discussing the effect on your children (from the perspective -- and written by -- the US Citizen / LPR), you may be able to get letters from the children’s teachers or others who can describe the effect of your absence on them.

Other factors which support finding extreme hardship include the effect of the separation on the family both emotionally and economically, your long history with the family and other evidence of your good moral character.

Make sure that all evidence has documentary proof where available (financial, medical, etc proof).

If it is a difficult case, you may want to also get information about country conditions in your home country, for example about the current job market or education opportunities for children to show the hardship if the family had to move to your country.

Note: It has been reported that a consulate denied a waiver citing that:

"Ms. XXX (US Citizen) would suffer extreme hardship if she were to move to the foreign country, but the option remains to stay in the US, which would allow her to keep her employment and benefits, home, family, language, culture, etc."

...so take care to state that if the US Citizen would be "harmed" by staying in the US without the beneficiary that you mention this as well as show the necessary proof.

It is always recommend that you consult a qualified attorney to determine your overall risk and options.

I am an Ewok. I am here to to keep the peace. Please contact me if you have a problem with the site or a complaint regarding a violation of the Terms of Service. For the fastest response please use the 'Contact Us' page to contact me.

  • 1 month later...
Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: Canada
Timeline
Posted

This is some advice from Laural Scott ( Immigration Attorney who specializes in I-601 waivers) for writing your own hardship letter. I have copied it from www.immigrate2us.net

DO NOT OVERWHELM THE ADJUDICATOR WITH LOTS OF WEAK ARGUMENTS.

You want to give the adjudicator your strongest three to five arguments for hardship and PROVE your hardship with documentation. Don't 'bury' your stronger arguments among lots of weaker ones. Start with the strongest arguments first and include weaker ones later in the brief. Same thing with supporting documents. Support your points, but don't overwhelm. If you have a doctor's letter explaining your medical condition, you don't need 20 pages of lab reports.

SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENTS WITH EVIDENCE

If you say your mom has a medical condition, supply a doctor's note. If you say you have unusual job skills specific to the US, get a letter from your employer. If you say your ex-wife would not allow you to take your mutual child abroad, get a letter from her if you can. Getting supporting documents can be a pain in the ###, but DO IT! If you ask the doctor for your records and he doesn't return your call, CALL AGAIN! If your mom's psychiatrist says he needs a release form from your mom, get her to sign one! If you're embarrased to tell your boss that the reason your performance has been slipping is because your wife was deported, bite the bullet and tell him and ask for a letter. Note: if you have a very strong argument, but you absolutely cannot get evidence - e.g. your spouse was the victim of a hate crime in her home country, but never reported it - include the argument anyway and give LOTS OF DETAILS. Telling a very detailed story with names and dates can sometimes substitute for lack of evidence if it is credible that no evidence would exist (e.g. you had a surgery ten years ago relavant to your current state of health, but the hopital has purged the records).

KNOW YOUR STRONGEST ARGUMENTS

Below are just examples of various arguments on a scale from 1 to 5, with 1 being the strongest and 5 the weakest. It is not an exhaustive list.

Level 1 arguments:

(a) you have a MAJOR medical condition (e.g. brain tumor, multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy) which makes you unable to move abroad and for which you really need your spouse in the US to help take care of you,

(B) you are caring for an elderly, chronically ill, or disabled relative who needs constant care and whose condition is bad enough that you either MUST live with the relative or you MUST spend at least an hour a day assisting the relative with things like hygiene or physical therapy, and this makes you unable to move abroad and makes you really need your spouse in the US to help you care for your relative and manage your other responsibilities, or

© your spouse's country is in a state of war or major political upheaval (e.g. Liberia).

Level 2 arguments include:

(a) you are the primary caregiver for your child(ren) from a prior relationship and the child(ren)'s other parent will not allow you to take the children out of the country AND the child(ren) have formed an emotional attachment to your new spouse or fiance(e),

(B) you have a serious medical condition that makes it very difficult for you to move abroad and you need your spouse to come help you (e.g. you need to have major surgery sometime in the next year, with an expected recovery time of several months),

© you are caring for a moderately disabled relative who normally can care for him/herself but occasionaly has episodes in which he/she needs a lot of help from you and during those time you, in turn, need help from your spouse,

(d) a relative is unusually financially dependent on you (e.g. your mother has just gone through a nasty divorce with your father in which she got nothing and because she has never worked, she doesn't qualify for social security, so you are supporting her in the entirety for the rest of her life),

(e) you have a child that you are putting through college or are about to put through college, or

(F) your spouse's country is on the verge of major political unrest (e.g. Boliva) or negative political change (e.g. Iran) or the country is known for oppression of one sort or another (e.g. you are a Christian woman and your husband is from Saudi Arabia), or it is in the infant stages of post-war recovery (e.g. Afghanistan).

Level 3 arguments include:

(a) you are the non-custodial parent of a child from a prior relationship and you have an actual relationship with that child and the child's other parent will not allow you to take the child out of the country but your spouse or fiance(e) does not have a relationship with the child at this time,

(B) you have a significant condition that makes it inconvenient for you to move out of the country (e.g. severe asthma and your spouse lives in Mexico City),

© you have been diagnosed by a licensed psychologist/psychiatrist with clinical depression due to your spouse's immigration problems (I've argued to the Administrative Appeals Unit that this condition should be taken more seriously by adjudications officers, but at this time I am listing it as a 'moderate' argument),

(d) you and your spouse have young children together or you have full custody of your child and can bring him/her abroad and your spouse's home country has bad public health conditions and bad public education,

(e) your job requires a license in both the US and abroad and it will be very difficult to get licensed abroad (e.g. attorney),

(F) you have job skills that are very specific to the US (e.g. a tax accountant with extensive familiarity with US tax law),

(g) your spouse's country has a very bad economy (e.g. Chad),

(h) you have a close relative who is partially dependent on you financially (e.g. your mom gets social security but needs your extra $500 per month to stay in her present apartment) or physically (e.g. your mom pretty much gets around ok, but her health has been declining and you expect her to need more of your help in the near future).

Level 4 arguments include:

(a) you have debts you wouldn't be able to pay if you moved abroad,

(B) your spouse's country has a high unemployment rate,

© your spouse's country has a high crime rate,

(d) you've been depondent since your spouse left the country, but haven't sought professional help,

(e) your parents are getting old.

Level 5 arguments include:

(a) you got a high score on the Holmes-Rahe scale,

(B) you and your spouse want to have children in the future (but are not currently pregnant) and either the wife is getting older or the foreign country has a high infant mortality rate.

Don't get discouraged if all you have is two Level 3 arguments and a couple of Level 4 arguments. While one Level 3 argument by itself might not make a strong case, a few put together can be very strong in the aggregate. Just present your case in the strongest possible light. If all you can think of is a couple of Level 4 and Level 5 arguments, I recommend that you pay for a consultation with an attorney to at least see if you can brainstorm some stronger arguments.

Note: whenever you claim that a relative is dependent on you either for direct care or for money, you must explain why no other relative such as one of your siblings can provide the same care or support.

_________________

  • 5 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...
Filed: Timeline
Posted
:ph34r:

Can I send a letter to the consulate about hardships? I am not sure if they are going to deny us or not, but I think they will. They hate African American and Moroccan couples. I am in the military and i can not leave until my enlistment is up? What do you think and what should I do? I was thinking of writing a statement for my ficane to take with him to the interview is this something I should or not? I am just a bit worried but I like to be prepared for things.

إركا

[

  • 4 months later...
Filed: Other Country: Albania
Timeline
Posted

:ph34r:

Can I send a letter to the consulate about hardships? I am not sure if they are going to deny us or not, but I think they will. They hate African American and Moroccan couples. I am in the military and i can not leave until my enlistment is up? What do you think and what should I do? I was thinking of writing a statement for my ficane to take with him to the interview is this something I should or not? I am just a bit worried but I like to be prepared for things.

Waviers are very tricky, Make sure you have proof for everything u submit to the embassy. I was just approved for my husband's I601 and I212 wavier this past Feb 7th, 07. But I had to refile them because the first time they were denied. Check out the Immigrate2us.net website, and see if there is a letter on there that can help you draft your own. By the way I do not recommend using an attorny for this. It is my personal experiance that if you use an attorny then you will be denied.

  • 1 year later...
Filed: AOS (apr) Country: Panama
Timeline
Posted

:ph34r:

Can I send a letter to the consulate about hardships? I am not sure if they are going to deny us or not, but I think they will. They hate African American and Moroccan couples. I am in the military and i can not leave until my enlistment is up? What do you think and what should I do? I was thinking of writing a statement for my ficane to take with him to the interview is this something I should or not? I am just a bit worried but I like to be prepared for things.

Waviers are very tricky, Make sure you have proof for everything u submit to the embassy. I was just approved for my husband's I601 and I212 wavier this past Feb 7th, 07. But I had to refile them because the first time they were denied. Check out the Immigrate2us.net website, and see if there is a letter on there that can help you draft your own. By the way I do not recommend using an attorny for this. It is my personal experiance that if you use an attorny then you will be denied.

Really ? Why is that ? I'm not planning to use one anyway,but that is an interesting point.I have already consulted about 4 and they all gave me different advice.One even told me she didn't know because she had never had a case similar to mine. :wacko:

May 7,2007-USCIS received I-129f
July 24,2007-NOA1 was received
April 21,2008-K-1 visa denied.
June 3,2008-waiver filed at US Consalate in Panama
The interview went well,they told him it will take another 6 months for them to adjudicate the waiver
March 3,2009-US Consulate claims they have no record of our December visit,nor Manuel's interview
March 27,2009-Manuel returned to the consulate for another interrogation(because they forgot about December's interview),and they were really rude !
April 3,2009-US Counsalate asks for more court documents that no longer exist !
June 1,2009-Manuel and I go back to the US consalate AGAIN to give them a letter from the court in Colon along with documents I already gave them last year.I was surprised to see they had two thick files for his case !


June 15,2010-They called Manuel in to take his fingerprints again,still no decision on his case!
June 22,2010-WAIVER APPROVED at 5:00pm
July 19,2010-VISA IN MANUELITO'S HAND at 3:15pm!
July 25,2010-Manuelito arrives at 9:35pm at Logan Intn'l Airport,Boston,MA
August 5,2010-FINALLY MARRIED!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 23,2010-Filed for AOS at the International Institute of RI $1400!
December 23,2010-Work authorization received.
January 12,2011-RFE

Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: Canada
Timeline
Posted

It is not true necessarily that if you use an attorney you will be denied. The problem is that there are VERY few attorneys who are experienced with the waiver process or how to make a waiver packet.

She is right about immigrate2us though, it is THE place for waiver packet information. There are several attorneys recommended there for waivers as well. . .Laurel Scott, Heather Poole. . .and others. . .I would definitely do, and have done, an inquiry with one of these attorneys to see what they think.

  • 10 months later...
Filed: Other Country: Colombia
Timeline
Posted
It is not true necessarily that if you use an attorney you will be denied. The problem is that there are VERY few attorneys who are experienced with the waiver process or how to make a waiver packet.

She is right about immigrate2us though, it is THE place for waiver packet information. There are several attorneys recommended there for waivers as well. . .Laurel Scott, Heather Poole. . .and others. . .I would definitely do, and have done, an inquiry with one of these attorneys to see what they think.

I would day the problem is their prices, are so HIGH ....... plus they do not guarantee you are going to get your approval.

Im going to the procces soon, and after all ive read, ill rather do it by myself, reading a lot on those website you all named already, get a good packet of proofs, very organized, and pray all is ok, it only cost around 500 US. With a lawyer ti will be not less than 3000 US. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Posted

:star:

This is some advice from Laural Scott ( Immigration Attorney who specializes in I-601 waivers) for writing your own hardship letter. I have copied it from www.immigrate2us.net

DO NOT OVERWHELM THE ADJUDICATOR WITH LOTS OF WEAK ARGUMENTS.

You want to give the adjudicator your strongest three to five arguments for hardship and PROVE your hardship with documentation. Don't 'bury' your stronger arguments among lots of weaker ones. Start with the strongest arguments first and include weaker ones later in the brief. Same thing with supporting documents. Support your points, but don't overwhelm. If you have a doctor's letter explaining your medical condition, you don't need 20 pages of lab reports.

SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENTS WITH EVIDENCE

If you say your mom has a medical condition, supply a doctor's note. If you say you have unusual job skills specific to the US, get a letter from your employer. If you say your ex-wife would not allow you to take your mutual child abroad, get a letter from her if you can. Getting supporting documents can be a pain in the ###, but DO IT! If you ask the doctor for your records and he doesn't return your call, CALL AGAIN! If your mom's psychiatrist says he needs a release form from your mom, get her to sign one! If you're embarrased to tell your boss that the reason your performance has been slipping is because your wife was deported, bite the bullet and tell him and ask for a letter. Note: if you have a very strong argument, but you absolutely cannot get evidence - e.g. your spouse was the victim of a hate crime in her home country, but never reported it - include the argument anyway and give LOTS OF DETAILS. Telling a very detailed story with names and dates can sometimes substitute for lack of evidence if it is credible that no evidence would exist (e.g. you had a surgery ten years ago relavant to your current state of health, but the hopital has purged the records).

KNOW YOUR STRONGEST ARGUMENTS

Below are just examples of various arguments on a scale from 1 to 5, with 1 being the strongest and 5 the weakest. It is not an exhaustive list.

Level 1 arguments:

(a) you have a MAJOR medical condition (e.g. brain tumor, multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy) which makes you unable to move abroad and for which you really need your spouse in the US to help take care of you,

(B) you are caring for an elderly, chronically ill, or disabled relative who needs constant care and whose condition is bad enough that you either MUST live with the relative or you MUST spend at least an hour a day assisting the relative with things like hygiene or physical therapy, and this makes you unable to move abroad and makes you really need your spouse in the US to help you care for your relative and manage your other responsibilities, or

© your spouse's country is in a state of war or major political upheaval (e.g. Liberia).

Level 2 arguments include:

(a) you are the primary caregiver for your child(ren) from a prior relationship and the child(ren)'s other parent will not allow you to take the children out of the country AND the child(ren) have formed an emotional attachment to your new spouse or fiance(e),

(B) you have a serious medical condition that makes it very difficult for you to move abroad and you need your spouse to come help you (e.g. you need to have major surgery sometime in the next year, with an expected recovery time of several months),

© you are caring for a moderately disabled relative who normally can care for him/herself but occasionaly has episodes in which he/she needs a lot of help from you and during those time you, in turn, need help from your spouse,

(d) a relative is unusually financially dependent on you (e.g. your mother has just gone through a nasty divorce with your father in which she got nothing and because she has never worked, she doesn't qualify for social security, so you are supporting her in the entirety for the rest of her life),

(e) you have a child that you are putting through college or are about to put through college, or

(F) your spouse's country is on the verge of major political unrest (e.g. Boliva) or negative political change (e.g. Iran) or the country is known for oppression of one sort or another (e.g. you are a Christian woman and your husband is from Saudi Arabia), or it is in the infant stages of post-war recovery (e.g. Afghanistan).

Level 3 arguments include:

(a) you are the non-custodial parent of a child from a prior relationship and you have an actual relationship with that child and the child's other parent will not allow you to take the child out of the country but your spouse or fiance(e) does not have a relationship with the child at this time,

(B) you have a significant condition that makes it inconvenient for you to move out of the country (e.g. severe asthma and your spouse lives in Mexico City),

© you have been diagnosed by a licensed psychologist/psychiatrist with clinical depression due to your spouse's immigration problems (I've argued to the Administrative Appeals Unit that this condition should be taken more seriously by adjudications officers, but at this time I am listing it as a 'moderate' argument),

(d) you and your spouse have young children together or you have full custody of your child and can bring him/her abroad and your spouse's home country has bad public health conditions and bad public education,

(e) your job requires a license in both the US and abroad and it will be very difficult to get licensed abroad (e.g. attorney),

(F) you have job skills that are very specific to the US (e.g. a tax accountant with extensive familiarity with US tax law),

(g) your spouse's country has a very bad economy (e.g. Chad),

(h) you have a close relative who is partially dependent on you financially (e.g. your mom gets social security but needs your extra $500 per month to stay in her present apartment) or physically (e.g. your mom pretty much gets around ok, but her health has been declining and you expect her to need more of your help in the near future).

Level 4 arguments include:

(a) you have debts you wouldn't be able to pay if you moved abroad,

(B) your spouse's country has a high unemployment rate,

© your spouse's country has a high crime rate,

(d) you've been depondent since your spouse left the country, but haven't sought professional help,

(e) your parents are getting old.

Level 5 arguments include:

(a) you got a high score on the Holmes-Rahe scale,

(B) you and your spouse want to have children in the future (but are not currently pregnant) and either the wife is getting older or the foreign country has a high infant mortality rate.

Don't get discouraged if all you have is two Level 3 arguments and a couple of Level 4 arguments. While one Level 3 argument by itself might not make a strong case, a few put together can be very strong in the aggregate. Just present your case in the strongest possible light. If all you can think of is a couple of Level 4 and Level 5 arguments, I recommend that you pay for a consultation with an attorney to at least see if you can brainstorm some stronger arguments.

Note: whenever you claim that a relative is dependent on you either for direct care or for money, you must explain why no other relative such as one of your siblings can provide the same care or support.

_________________

Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: Pakistan
Timeline
Posted
Where can i find sample letters of extreme hardship? so i can atlesat have some idea of where to start...

i have filed i-130 for my husband since 6/26/2006..it took one year for uscia to aprove our case,then it took about ayear for NVC to complete the case and forwarded to USE in pakistan and when my husband had his interview on sept 16,2008 they put him in AP ,he been in AP for the last 6 and half month..during all those time i visted him 4 times spent allot of money on each vist,,each vist was one week , last vist was in july 2008 for 3 weeks..i cant go and live in my husband's country cuz i have a lease with my app and i have a stable good job right now and i don't want to quit in the fear that i may not find a job that easy when needed, what if i go and when we come back we both have no job or income,thats why going to his country is not an option for me.

now the hard ship that i have faced ,i was pregant with our first child and lost the baby in 10,2008 due to too much of standing on my feet at work and long hours of full time job not to mention the stress of AP ,i gone through mescarige and surgery all alone ,came back from huspital and stayed home for 3 days alone as i have no family at all,my kids live with my ex in diffrent country ,,and just reasnatly i was diagnosed with skin cancer which need surgery in june 8th 2009. i have doctors and all medical evedince that prove my medical situation.do any one know if this can proven as hardship and help bring my husband here before my surery in june and before his AP in completed? is so where will i file ,is it to USE or uscia?

any adivce will be appreciated.

sorry for my post with wrong quote.

3/24/2006...got married

6/26/2006...I-130 sent to uscia

9/4/2007 ...I-130 aproved

9/4/2007....NVC recieved

8/4/2008...NVC completed

8/4/2008...case sent to USE/Islamabad

9/16/2008....interview date/put in AP

3/16/2009 .... 6 months of AP

4/16/2009.......7 months in AP

5/16/2009........8 months in AP

6/16/2009.........9 months in AP

6/15/2009.... visa issued

7/30/2009....visa in hand

POE 8/4/2009 Washington /dulles airport

8/28/2009....GC received/10 years validity

  • 1 month later...
Filed: Timeline
Posted

"I would day the problem is their prices, are so HIGH ....... plus they do not guarantee you are going to get your approval."

/quote]

The problem which immigration attorneys and waiver applicants face is the relatively widespread inexperience. The need for these waivers, as a whole, is not as common as the need for some advice completing a green card adjustment of status with a straightforward family or work sponsor.

Most attorneys who receive a waiver request are faced with the reality that a lot of work and tedious preparation is required, and the chances of success are low. Because of the difficulty of the task, the potential benefit to the client and their family, and the lack of attorneys with experience in this field, the prices can be astronomical.

After all, a ban for instance is a very serious decision, so to ask the government to overturn it is not usually a simple process. I'm not going to suggest that your chances are better with or without an attorney but I will advise you to be as thorough as possible and prepare all your research ahead of time.

You might have good luck by compiling a list of questions for an attorney and taking on as much as you are comfortable with, if you can find the right mentor.

  • 3 weeks later...
Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: Mexico
Timeline
Posted
:ph34r:

Can I send a letter to the consulate about hardships? I am not sure if they are going to deny us or not, but I think they will. They hate African American and Moroccan couples. I am in the military and i can not leave until my enlistment is up? What do you think and what should I do? I was thinking of writing a statement for my ficane to take with him to the interview is this something I should or not? I am just a bit worried but I like to be prepared for things.

I have NEVER heard that using an attorney with you are filing a hardship waiver will cause you to be denied. I have heard just the opposite? Why do you say that ???

Julie :)

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

oh i need to add one more thing, we DID NOT hire a lawyer, save the money to pay for the Waiver fee. You can do it without a lawyer.

Oct 2005 - met my baby

Dec 2006 - he proposed

Feb 2007 - K-1 filed

Dec 2007 - K-1 Visa Interview (denied), the reason: i was overstayed my previous visit in 2000-2003 (my bad)

Feb 2008 - I-601 Waiver filed

Sept 2008 - Waiver approved (K-1 Visa issued)

Jan 2009 - the Wedding Blessing & Reception (Bali, Indonesia)

Feb 2009 - Arrived in the US followed by the Civil Wedding & Reception (again:)

March 2009 - AOS filed

April 2009 - Biometric

May 2009 - EAD card in hand

Aug 27th 2009 - AOS Interview (approved, yaay)

Sept 2009- Green Card arrived in the mail...yippeeeew...(i want to sing of Your Love forever)

June 2011 - ROC filed

July 2011 - Biometric

Dec 2011 - ROC approved (Best Christmas ever, i must've been a really good girl this year :)

The wait would be unbearable but it'll be worth it. It strengthens the love, it attaches you even more to each other, it shows how your man would do whatever it takes to be with you, that he will never give up on you because he LOVES you!! All the waits, stresses, tears, heartaches, all the miserable feelings you feel along the way will be paid off once you get what you've been hoping for...oh and WITHOUT PRAYERS? will be like trying to start a fire with water, JUST WON'T WORK!

 
Didn't find the answer you were looking for? Ask our VJ Immigration Lawyers.
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
- Back to Top -

Important Disclaimer: Please read carefully the Visajourney.com Terms of Service. If you do not agree to the Terms of Service you should not access or view any page (including this page) on VisaJourney.com. Answers and comments provided on Visajourney.com Forums are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Visajourney.com does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. VisaJourney.com does not condone immigration fraud in any way, shape or manner. VisaJourney.com recommends that if any member or user knows directly of someone involved in fraudulent or illegal activity, that they report such activity directly to the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. You can contact ICE via email at Immigration.Reply@dhs.gov or you can telephone ICE at 1-866-347-2423. All reported threads/posts containing reference to immigration fraud or illegal activities will be removed from this board. If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by contacting us here with a url link to that content. Thank you.
×
×
  • Create New...