"Gaza Island"

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I would have to say you last comments to my post are fair WOM. We can agree that Israel needs to be focusing not just on ending new settlements but will absolutely need to dismantle many before anything resembling peace takes shape. Ditto for Israel ending the blockade and occupation of what will need to become territory of the State of Palestine. All difficult to accomplish with Benny & Co. in power.

But the conflict doesn't take place in a vacuum. Jews were also ethnically removed, all but wiped and or forced out of ME Arab nations since 1948. The Holocaust did take place. An Israeli stamp in your passport still means you can't enter certain ME countries. There are still ME countries continuing to call for the total destruction of Israel.

ME Arabs generally view Islamic law as perfect, the penalty for stating otherwise can mean death. There is no historical record of equality for non-Muslims in the region.

The Palestinian cause has been a useful tool for Arab despots and Soviet Cold War intrigue but seldom for the benefit of the Palestinian people.

Long story short a vast array of historical events have led to the present state of affairs in the region, far too complex to simply say Israel is the main reason there is no Palestine. At least from my perspective.

[scandal 951]

Zionism is the logic of the criminally insane.

As a Zionist, and a proud one at that, I consider this statement to be a direct and personal attack. I've been called many things in my time, I can now add criminally insane to the list.

As a VJ member entitled to the same TOS protections as you, and as all on this site, I cry foul.

You may debate. You may have your say. You may make all the charges you want to make, be they true or false. You have First Amendment rights and you have VJ sanction to write whatever nonsense comes into your head. But when you level charges that people of a discernible group -- including fellow members of this very site whose TOS you signed when you became a member -- are 'criminally insane', you have crossed a bright, red, bold line.

I am a Zionist. I am a person who believes in the right of the Jewish people, an ancient and proud people, to self determination in their historic homeland. That is what Zionism is. It is not a philosophy of oppression or persecution despite what you may think or write, or how often you write it. Rather it is a binding view of Jews throughout the Diaspora and in Israel that we, too, are entitled to ours just as all the nations of the world, just as the Americans, the Italians, and yes - the Palestinians, are entitled to theirs. It is not a philosophy that we are greater than you, the nations of the world. Rather it is a philosophy that we are not lesser than you. After our history replete with the Babylonian expulsion and destruction of the first Temple, the Roman expulsion and destruction of the second Temple, the slaughter of Banu Quraiza Jews by Mohammed, the Inquisition, the Expulsion from Spain, the countless pogroms, and the Holocaust -- yes, we too, are finally allowed to go home and live in our ancestral home. We are still here. We are not leaving this Earth. And we will stand for what is rightfully our own.

You may not like me, you may not like Zionists who feel and believe as I do. In fact, you very clearly do not. That is your right.

But to call us and to call me criminally insane for believing as we do goes beyond the pale. You have proven yourself not a worthy adversary in debate, and you have no credibility whatsoever.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

While there is a part of me that feels your pain when Jews are attacked, and relates to it, I still have to say, You can't be serious. Get in line; commenting negatively on a philosophy is not a TOS violation. If that was so, the vitriol against Republicans, Democrats, right-wingers, fundamentalist Christians, Islam, Muslim terrorists, atheists, tree huggers, etc., expressed on this board would have shut it down a long time ago.

Zionism is a philosophy worthy of commentary, pro and con, and, if it's con, learn to deal. Not everyone buys into the idea that because a certain group of people SHARED a space on earth a couple of millennium ago, they're entitled by their religion to steal it away from the people living there when they show up again wanting it back centuries later.

If that's the way we decide who should live where, then Israel has no right to assert a right of return for European Jews, but deny that right to descendants of people living there in the 19th and 20th centuries, and run off by Zionists. Jews are not the only people in that area deserving of self-determination in what has been their historic homeland.

WOM or anyone else has the right to disagree with and criticize Zionists and Zionism; yes, even to call Zionism insane. If you want to stand up for it, do your best, but we're not going to tippy toe around this issue anymore than we have about any other philosophy involved in long term global conflict.

As a Zionist, and a proud one at that, I consider this statement to be a direct and personal attack. I've been called many things in my time, I can now add criminally insane to the list.

As a VJ member entitled to the same TOS protections as you, and as all on this site, I cry foul.

You may debate. You may have your say. You may make all the charges you want to make, be they true or false. You have First Amendment rights and you have VJ sanction to write whatever nonsense comes into your head. But when you level charges that people of a discernible group -- including fellow members of this very site whose TOS you signed when you became a member -- are 'criminally insane', you have crossed a bright, red, bold line.

I am a Zionist. I am a person who believes in the right of the Jewish people, an ancient and proud people, to self determination in their historic homeland. That is what Zionism is. It is not a philosophy of oppression or persecution despite what you may think or write, or how often you write it. Rather it is a binding view of Jews throughout the Diaspora and in Israel that we, too, are entitled to ours just as all the nations of the world, just as the Americans, the Italians, and yes - the Palestinians, are entitled to theirs. It is not a philosophy that we are greater than you, the nations of the world. Rather it is a philosophy that we are not lesser than you. After our history replete with the Babylonian expulsion and destruction of the first Temple, the Roman expulsion and destruction of the second Temple, the slaughter of Banu Quraiza Jews by Mohammed, the Inquisition, the Expulsion from Spain, the countless pogroms, and the Holocaust -- yes, we too, are finally allowed to go home and live in our ancestral home. We are still here. We are not leaving this Earth. And we will stand for what is rightfully our own.

You may not like me, you may not like Zionists who feel and believe as I do. In fact, you very clearly do not. That is your right.

But to call us and to call me criminally insane for believing as we do goes beyond the pale. You have proven yourself not a worthy adversary in debate, and you have no credibility whatsoever.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Sofiyya

[William33 110]

This thread is losing value and traction by the minute.

The original proposal was to eliminate the Israel section/topic.

Since that will not happen, I suggest this 40 year+ old debate be taken up elsewhere.

All participants raised good points, but do remember that VisaJourney is a membership based, US immigration help site.

As Moderators, we must draw a line to separate immigration issues versus unrelated debates that spin out of control.

I suggest wrapping it up or the thread will be closed.

Regards,

William

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

This thread is losing value and traction by the minute.

The original proposal was to eliminate the Israel section/topic.

Since that will not happen, I suggest this 40 year+ old debate be taken up elsewhere.

All participants raised good points, but do remember that VisaJourney is a membership based, US immigration help site.

As Moderators, we must draw a line to separate immigration issues versus unrelated debates that spin out of control.

I suggest wrapping it up or the thread will be closed.

Regards,

William

I disagree. Of course the moderators each will do what they want, with, or without guidance collectively, or from on high, then rally behind the action of that moderator, no matter how far he or she wanders off the reservation. But so far, this has been a reasonable, and heated adult conversation. Sweeping such strong emotional issues under the carpet, especially when people's lives are at stake, has exacerbated this situation, and when finally useful dialogue and insight is occurring, you get squeamish.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I disagree. Of course the moderators each will do what they want, with, or without guidance collectively, or from on high, then rally behind the action of that moderator, no matter how far he or she wanders off the reservation. But so far, this has been a reasonable, and heated adult conversation. Sweeping such strong emotional issues under the carpet, especially when people's lives are at stake, has exacerbated this situation, and when finally useful dialogue and insight is occurring, you get squeamish.

My guess is a certain poster didn't like what they read and either PM'd a mod and/or reported a post on here.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Why_Me

[scandal 951]

Could be, but not me.

[^_^ 5,021]

All participants raised good points, but do remember that VisaJourney is a membership based, US immigration help site.

That's right. US based, y'hear? That means you either go back to talking about Weiner's wiener or Sarah's bus ride orgies or The Donald's hair or go find another forum to go talk about all this blasted furrin stuff.

[^_^ 5,021]

Sweeping such strong emotional issues under the carpet, especially when people's lives are at stake, has exacerbated this situation, and when finally useful dialogue and insight is occurring, you get squeamish.

It ain't like the problem is going to be solved by VJ.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It ain't like the problem is going to be solved by VJ.

Party pooper.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

As a Zionist, and a proud one at that, I consider this statement to be a direct and personal attack. I've been called many things in my time, I can now add criminally insane to the list.

As a VJ member entitled to the same TOS protections as you, and as all on this site, I cry foul.

You may debate. You may have your say. You may make all the charges you want to make, be they true or false. You have First Amendment rights and you have VJ sanction to write whatever nonsense comes into your head. But when you level charges that people of a discernible group -- including fellow members of this very site whose TOS you signed when you became a member -- are 'criminally insane', you have crossed a bright, red, bold line.

I am a Zionist. I am a person who believes in the right of the Jewish people, an ancient and proud people, to self determination in their historic homeland. That is what Zionism is. It is not a philosophy of oppression or persecution despite what you may think or write, or how often you write it. Rather it is a binding view of Jews throughout the Diaspora and in Israel that we, too, are entitled to ours just as all the nations of the world, just as the Americans, the Italians, and yes - the Palestinians, are entitled to theirs. It is not a philosophy that we are greater than you, the nations of the world. Rather it is a philosophy that we are not lesser than you. After our history replete with the Babylonian expulsion and destruction of the first Temple, the Roman expulsion and destruction of the second Temple, the slaughter of Banu Quraiza Jews by Mohammed, the Inquisition, the Expulsion from Spain, the countless pogroms, and the Holocaust -- yes, we too, are finally allowed to go home and live in our ancestral home. We are still here. We are not leaving this Earth. And we will stand for what is rightfully our own.

You may not like me, you may not like Zionists who feel and believe as I do. In fact, you very clearly do not. That is your right.

But to call us and to call me criminally insane for believing as we do goes beyond the pale. You have proven yourself not a worthy adversary in debate, and you have no credibility whatsoever.

Oh the drama. I have seen you pull this type of stunt before. I remember you were arguing with someone on the I/P conflict (can't remember who it was right now) and your response was to list your personal views on the conflict, then demand they agree with your entire premise before you would consider them "worthy" of your debate. As in "This is what I believe. If you can agree with all that, then we have a place to start talking." I will have search for it because it was well worth the lulz.

Anyway... "Zionism is the logic of the criminal insane":

It advocates that the Jewish people of the world constitute a nation and, because a Jewish state once existed in Palestine - and despite the fact that it was extinguished 2000 years ago - are entitled to bring Jews from all over the world there and establish a Jewish sovereign state, regardless of whether the indigenous inhabitants consent, and even at their expense.

It advocates that the State of Israel represents the interests of Jewish people worldwide (including those of Jewish ancestry who now consider themselves atheist or followers of a different faith, as well as a large number of Jews who want nothing to do with it and even actively oppose it.)

It advocates that the land of Palestine is the rightful property of the Jewish people of the world - even those Jews whose ancestors never set foot in the Holy Land - and that the property rights of the indigenous Palestinians may be ignored.

It relegates the Palestinian people - whose ancestors undeniably include both the ancient Hebrews and the indigenous Canaanites who were there before the rise of ancient Israel - to lesser status without the same rights and privileges, even to the point of denying them the basic human right to return to their own homeland.

This is what I am saying: Zionism justifies criminal acts with a logic that adds up to “crazy.”

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The General's Son

Miko Peled's grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson, was a Zionist leader and signer of Israel's Declaration of Independence. His father was General Matti Peled, a war hero from Israel’s most definitive military victories in 1948 and 1967, later turned radical peace activist and proponent of a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories.

In this video, Peled reflects on what it meant to grow up as an Israeli raised on the Zionist ideal of a Jewish state, and the life experiences that changed his perceptions.

[Vi-Jay 218]

I remember sitting with my Grandfather and some of his friends. They would discuss and debate different topics. Historical and current. I really enjoyed watching those discussions. In a way, it brought history to life and provided an insight not available in the "history" classes taught at school.

I hope the mods won't deprive VJ members of the various subjective perspectives beings discussed on this thread.

(This thread will get tired and hungry sooner or later. That's about when Grandpa would say, "You are just a stubborn mule" and get up and leave. )

Edited June 24, 2011 by Vi-Jay

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I remember sitting with my Grandfather and some of his friends. They would discuss and debate different topics. Historical and current. I really enjoyed watching those discussions. In a way, it brought history to life and provided an insight not available in the "history" classes taught at school.

I hope the mods don't deprive VJ members of the various subjective perspectives beings discussed on this thread.

(This thread will get tired and hungry sooner or later. That's about when Grandpa would say, "You are just a stubborn mule" and get up and leave. )

My stepfather would go and buy reference and textbooks, and give to me to read, so that no issue we discussed ever went "unresolved". I still have most of those.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[mawilson 2,133]

"Zionism is the logic of the criminal insane":

It advocates that the Jewish people of the world constitute a nation

A premise you disagree with?

You don't think the Jewish people of the world should have their own country?