"Gaza Island"

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Its the internet, where we blame everyone back to the Philistines and the Judeans too.

When paranoia is a de facto motto for living, we tend to sweep understanding of circumstance under the proverbial rug.

Hmm, thats not good enough. Lets blame Sumer (Abraham is supposed to be from Ur)

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

One of my favorite books..,

I am curious 'bout something. The palestinian plight is obviously important to the "Arab" world. Why doesn't the "Arab" world do something about it?

(I apologize for my ignorance.)

They did...but for their own interest, not the interest of the Palestinians. They invaded Israel more than once.

[Zero Sum 305]

Hmm, thats not good enough. Lets blame Sumer (Abraham is supposed to be from Ur)

Indeed. Try Abraham's dad for wanting him. *shakes fist at Terah*

[Vi-Jay 218]

They did...but for their own interest, not the interest of the Palestinians. They invaded Israel more than once.

Are you suggesting the Arab world considers the palestinian plight nonconsequential? Superflous?

[Golden Gate 530]

One of my favorite books..,

I am curious 'bout something. The palestinian plight is obviously important to the "Arab" world. Why doesn't the "Arab" world do something about it?

(I apologize for my ignorance.)

I'll have to read that! It seems that their plight should be important to anyone who really cares about humanity.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Are you suggesting the Arab world considers the palestinian plight nonconsequential? Superflous?

I can't say much on here without receiving a big time ban on here and making enemy's at the same time. I have my views on this conflict a long with Palestinians and Israeli's. It comes down to which is the better of two evils imo.

[mawilson 2,133]

They did...but for their own interest, not the interest of the Palestinians. They invaded Israel more than once.

When did they invade Israel?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

When did they invade Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

"Following the declaration, Moetzet HaAm became the Provisional State Council, which acted as the legislative body for the new state until the first elections in January 1949.

Over the next few days the armies of Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Lebanon, and Syria invaded Israel, and officially and militarily threatened to occupy the whole of the former Mandate territory, thereby starting the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known in Israel as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות‎, Milhamat HaAtzma'ut). A truce began on 11 June, but fighting resumed on 8 July and stopped again on 18 July, before restarting in mid-October and finally ending on 24 July 1949 with the signing of the armistice agreement with Syria. By then Israel had retained its independence and increased its land area by almost 50% compared to the 1947 UN Partition Plan."

Edited June 22, 2011 by Why_Me

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Are you suggesting the Arab world considers the palestinian plight nonconsequential? Superflous?

See Pakistani treatment of biharis (whom it promised to take in after 1971--only to renege after 1976, and never again lived-up to its original promise--even when Musharraf, whose grandpa migrated to Delhi from Muzaffarpur, was in power).

[Vi-Jay 218]

See Pakistani treatment of biharis (whom it promised to take in after 1971--only to renege after 1976, and never again lived-up to its original promise--even when Musharraf, whose grandpa migrated to Delhi from Muzaffarpur, was in power).

So you think the Arab world considers the Palestinian plight nonconsequential?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

So you think the Arab world considers the Palestinian plight nonconsequential?

From my reading, a lot of the Arab world thinks the Palestine issue is sucking the oxygen out of the Arab cause, a useful tool to distract the common Arab away from his own plight. However, it seems this year, beginning in the spring, and onto the summer, most Arabs are looking a little closer to home for solutions to their own problems.

Palestine is uniquely situated, to either catch the wave and resolve their problems, with the Israelis, and their own leadership, or, fall further behind as citizens of countries like Egypt, Libya, and Syria improve their situations this year.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Yet you don't seem to grasp the inherent advantage that guerilla warfare has in this situation. For all the bombs and fighter jets the israeli army has, they can't use a vast majority of it to combat the terrorists that run the government.

Well, obviously Hezbollah is not even part of this topic - we are talking about Gaza, not Lebanon.

During Cast Lead, Israel used just about every weapon in its bag of tricks (except its "reputed" nuclear bombs) - it used tanks, fighter jets, attack helicopters, drones, heavy artillery, guided missiles, DIME, even white phosphorus and flechette shells (which international law specifically prohibits from use in civilian areas.)

When you have one side in a conflict with an overwhelmingly superior military force, you really can't blame the opposition for choosing what works best for them - which is often low-tech guerrilla warfare (the catchy new name for it is "asymmetric warfare.") Of course if Israel thinks this kind of war tips the scales unfairly, it could always ditch its fancy stuff and do the same.

But Israel is already doing that in special ops. It has its own special forces working in small units, and they use all the standard guerrilla military tactics of raids, ambushes, disguise, sabotage, surprise attacks, and more.

Hamas and Hezbollah don't follow international treaties or guidelines for war. You try to paint this in black and white terms when this situation is anything but. This isn't the case of a group of protesters throwing rocks at tanks like you seem to portray. Hamas is heavily armed, and hope to use their arms to destroy Israel.

I have never portrayed Hamas as "protestors throwing rocks." Do not make stuff up, but stick to what I actually say.

Again, Hezbollah is another topic. But as for Hamas, since its election to government, it has generally abided by its agreements with Israel. It was Israel that broke its cease-fire agreement with Hamas in the weeks leading up to the Cast Lead assault (which Israel had in fact planned for more than 1 year prior):

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

Israel Strike Is First in Gaza Since Start of Cease-Fire

Why should Israel bother negotiating with Hamas? They can't even get them to declare that Israel has a right to exist. At some point, they will have to deal with them, if they manage to get elected again. It would be nice if they could avoid electing terrorists whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel.

The right-to-exist thing is just another stalling tactic. The piece that Sofiyya posted pretty much covered why it is a non-issue.

Experts across the international spectrum - even Israel’s own military officials, security experts plus a majority of regular citizens - have urged the Israeli government to include Hamas in the peace process:

‘We’ll Have to Talk - Growing chrous of Israelis Call for negotiations with Hamas

Israeli Hawks Say: Talk with Hamas

Why the U.S. Should Start Talking to Hamas

Talk to Hamas

Hamas must be brought into the peace process, says Tony Blair

Why We Cannot Talk With Hamas (the title is a tease; it’s actually about the history of Israel & Hamas and examines the motives behind Israel’s official refusal to negotiate)

I don't support the new settlements that go beyond previous agreements. But I think it will be a cold day in hell before Israel concedes one inch of Jerusalem to a Palestinian state.

Netanyahu cannot concede anything - he is locked into his position with his current political coalition, which relies on hard-core settler parties that are even loonier than Likud. They will collapse his government if he pulls more than a handful of settlers out of the West Bank or mentions anything about sharing Jerusalem.

But this is simply forcing the next step, which does not bode well for Nutty & Co's hopes of keeping their grip on the West Bank (including the Jordan Valley.) Palestinians will simply do as Israel did in 1948 - act unilaterally to declare their state and ask for international recognition (and they already have enough states who have committed their "yes" vote.) Word is they will declare the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as their capital. (Israel's actually lucky they don't ask for the 1948 armistice lines - because there are enough legal grounds to present a case for it.)

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I thought it was called Jordan.

"Jordan is Palestine" (so that "Palestine can be Israel") is an idea first promoted by Likud beginning in the 1970s. This was their neat little plan to get rid of all those pesky indigenous Palestinians still remaining, taking up space and getting in the way of Israeli expansionism - they could just be shoved over the Jordanian border, and then their property could be seized, annexed into the State of Israel, and nice Jewish folks could move in there instead.

The plan takes note of the fact that more than half the population of Jordan is now of Palestinian origin, arguing that Jordan is therefore the de facto homeland of the Palestinians. It completely ignores the fact that these "Palestinian-Jordanians" are overwhelmingly refugees, driven out of Palestine by the Zionists and then the State of Israel in 1948 and again in 1967. Jordan was a mostly Bedouin Arab country before the Nakba completely changed its demographics. (Israel of course is obsessed with its own demographics, yet somehow feels it has the right to drastically change its neighbors'.)

So - Israel conducts mass ethnic cleansing in Palestine and forces Jordan to absorb the bulk of the expelled Palestinian refugee population, then simply announces that Jordan is now the "Palestinian homeland," and uses that to justify forcibly sending the rest of the Palestinians there.

Zionism is the logic of the criminally insane.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You really didn't address the point that some view the Palestinians as having no responsibility whatsoever. It seems if both sides do something reprehensible, the response of the Palestinian supporters is simply "they started it".

The point is not that "Israel started it" (which it did) but that "Israel continues it."

I never claimed that Palestinian resistance groups were angels. But Israel is continuing to conduct an extremely violent illegal occupation and invasive settlement enterprise which, for the last 44 years, it has been told repeatedly by the international community - as per its own agreements with the UN and under the Geneva Convention ! - to end immediately.

There is one and only one reason that the government of Israel does not sit down today and negotiate a resolution. It's not about "terror" - it's about "land."

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Not at all. But I'd say that there is something to be considered in the fact that Palestine never really got out of the planning stages. "Palestinians" rail against their current occupiers yet occupation has been the de facto status of the area for a very long time.

Arab support and actions in response to the creation of Israel and several failed wars against Israel have done a lot to maintain "Palestinians" as refugees and prisoners in what could now be "Palestine."

Ditto for "Palestinian" current and historical (since the creation of Israel) leadership.

I don't think anyone can reasonably compare the current Israeli occupation -- which is very violent and involves the displacement of populations, the destruction or confiscation of property both public and private, air/land/sea blockades, curfews and closures and other restrictions on movement of people and goods, military "incursions," home invasions, targeted assassinations of alleged suspects, kidnappings of government officials and the destruction of the tools of government, the detainment of thousands without charge, the abduction and "arrest" of children in the middle of the night, not to mention the forcible insertion of heavily armed groups of fanatic settlers dedicated to the expulsion of what's left of the Palestinian people -- I really don't think you could compare that to the British or Ottoman occupations.

The main reason there is not yet a Palestinian state is because the Israelis have done everything they can to prevent it.