"Gaza Island"

[Zero Sum 305]

Comparing Israeli/Palestinean situation to Native American conquest is easy from a superficial view but roughly as accurate as the comparison to SA apartheid. All three were very different situations.

So many crappy things have been done by both sides of the IsraeliPalestinian conflict at this point though it is difficult to understand how either side can claim pure innocent victimization.

Its probably best not to think of the comparison as a literal one but rather, one based on the merits of the conditions in which consequences have arisen. Hands that throw stones usually do so for a reason.

[B_J 2,752]

I look at their points of view as having an element of balance to them. Yours has none. You attribute no responsibility for the conflict to the Palestinians, or the surrounding Arab nations. You do not believe they should make any movement toward compromise, only the Israelis.

That view shows no tolerance whatsoever. Therefore I don't believe it to be reasonable and can't support it.

You and your fellow idealogues posted a bunch of long-outdated Zionist myths, distortions, half-truths and outright falsehoods about the conflict - propaganda that went stale at least 15 years ago after being debunked by reputable historians all over the world, including in Israel. I went through each one and cited the actual historical record - which is easily confirmed from 'most any encyclopedia.

When confronted with facts, not one of you even acknowledged that you posted erroneous information, but instead, you just move on to the next Zio talking point.

What I have no tolerance for is misinformation. Zionist fairy tales are not some kind of “alternative narrative” that must be politely accepted as a meaningful part of any real discussion. The historical facts are easily confirmed and well-known to any serious student of the conflict, and it doesn’t make me “unreasonable” or "intolerant" to point them out.

You really didn't address the point that some view the Palestinians as having no responsibility whatsoever. It seems if both sides do something reprehensible, the response of the Palestinian supporters is simply "they started it".

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Still in denial, I see.

Tell me, who did Hamas target again? Was there any military value in a school bus? Were there any Israeli soldiers using the kids on the bus as human shields?

Didn't think so. Hamas targeted the bus to kill school children, nothing more. No soldiers. No politicians. School children. And you're defending their actions. Hope you're happy.

Again, Hamas says it was targeting a military road frequently used by the IDF - a road very close to Gaza used by troops which are btw actively engaged in a violent occupation of Palestine and which currently enforce a near-total blockade on Gaza.

Q: Are you willing to accept the IDF's constant claims that it could not avoid hitting the countless Palestinian civilians it's killed because they happened to be standing around near militants, or sleeping in their apartment building down the street from militants, or maybe they were in a car and Israel knows that militants sometimes use cars, etc. etc. etc. ? (never mind for now the fact that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth and Israel has made it nearly impossible for anyone to flee the war zone.)

And here is some more context for you. Let's look at what happened in Gaza before and after the school bus attack:

Friday, April 1 - Israeli forces assassinate a 24-year-old member of a Palestinian resistance group in Gaza

Saturday, April 2 - Israeli air force assassinates 3 more members of the same group

Tuesday, April 5 - Israeli forces shoot dead an unarmed Palestinian civilian in Northern Gaza

Wednesday, April 6 - the day starts with Israeli forces bombarding Gaza with air strikes, injuring 4 people including 2 women (one pregnant) and a child. By afternoon, hundreds of children in Gaza march in the streets, asking the international community to protect them against ongoing Israeli attacks and raids. That evening, the Israeli air force returns to bombard several areas of Gaza, injuring at least one person

Thursday, April 7 - that morning, the resistance group that had 4 members assassinated fired at a nearby Israeli town, hitting the school bus. By noon, Israeli forces strike Gaza, killing 5 and injuring more than 40

Despite calls for a cease-fire, Israel continued its strikes until a total of 14 Palestinians were dead and nearly 100 injured. The dead included a mother, her 21-year-old daughter, a policeman, and an elderly man.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

When did the Palestinians control a State of Palestine?

What is this supposed to mean ? Are you implying that if a group of people didn't enjoy certain rights in the past, then it's justified to continue denying them those rights ?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

What is this supposed to mean ? Are you implying that if a group of people didn't enjoy certain rights in the past, then it's justified to continue denying them those rights ?

Not at all. But I'd say that there is something to be considered in the fact that Palestine never really got out of the planning stages. "Palestinians" rail against their current occupiers yet occupation has been the de facto status of the area for a very long time.

Arab support and actions in response to the creation of Israel and several failed wars against Israel have done a lot to maintain "Palestinians" as refugees and prisoners in what could now be "Palestine."

Ditto for "Palestinian" current and historical (since the creation of Israel) leadership.

[Ban Hammer 13,445]

Again, Hamas says it was targeting a military road frequently used by the IDF - a road very close to Gaza used by troops which are btw actively engaged in a violent occupation of Palestine and which currently enforce a near-total blockade on Gaza.

that's a very weak explanation. a schoolbus can't be mistaken for anything other than a schoolbus.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

#1. Are you asking me if I personally approve of this tactic? No, I would probably prefer other methods of resistance. If you are asking what it represents from the militants' point of view, well the rockets are basically their attempts to show that they're doing something to fight the occupation - it's a message both to Israel and to their own people.

#2. Might as well ask would the 1400 still have died if Israel would have abided by its obligations under international law and ended its occupation at any point over the last 44 years.

Or you could ask if they would have died in Cast Lead if Zionist gangs and Israeli soldiers hadn't driven their families out of their homes before and during and after the establishment of the state of Israel, instead of being turned into destitute refugees in Gaza (cuz btw, that's how 90% of the people of Gaza ended up there.)

Point being: History didn’t begin the day a rocket landed in Israel.

The reason I asked the questions is because they represent a moment in time. An opportunity to make a decision that might change history.

Imagine the support the party would receive if they stopped the rocket attacks. Its funny that you mention history didn't begin the day a rocket landed in Israel. All they are doing is repeating that history over and over by continuing attacks. There is a pattern of Hamas attacks and Israeli reprisals, so logic would have it, if they had decided to break the cycle and try legitimate peaceful international negotiations 1400 lives would have been saved regardless of the history or who's fault it is.

For what its worth, I am for a Palestinian state, and a removal of settlements in the west bank. If Israel is afraid of giving up defensive ground, if I were them, I'd demand UN peacekeepers provide security in Gaza and the West bank (and the Golan Heights) during a 10 or 20 year Palestinian government /formation-transition.

Anyway regardless of the history, its clear that military-wise Israel has become reactive rather than pre-emptive. As such, a wise Palestinian leader would give up on a military solution and instead work toward a civil one.

[Zero Sum 305]

For what its worth, I am for a Palestinian state, and a removal of settlements in the west bank. If Israel is afraid of giving up defensive ground, if I were them, I'd demand UN peacekeepers provide security in Gaza and the West bank (and the Golan Heights) during a 10 or 20 year Palestinian government /formation-transition.

Anyway regardless of the history, its clear that military-wise Israel has become reactive rather than pre-emptive. As such, a wise Palestinian leader would give up on a military solution and instead work toward a civil one.

As am I- both states can peacefully coexist as long as the hardliners on both sides are done away with.

As for the idea of an international security buffer, I am surprised Israel has not offered such an option to assist them in returning Arab lands back to at least the 1967 borders, security being an issue and all.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

As am I- both states can peacefully coexist as long as the hardliners on both sides are done away with.

As for the idea of an international security buffer, I am surprised Israel has not offered such an option to assist them in returning Arab lands back to at least the 1967 borders, security being an issue and all.

At one time there were British, and later UN and US forces enforcing the cease-fire. Israel is the one that does not want the Arab League, or any international forces "protecting" the terrorists.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

At one time there were British, and later UN and US forces enforcing the cease-fire. Israel is the one that does not want the Arab League, or any international forces "protecting" the terrorists.

Silly me I forgot. There is a UN force in the Golan Heights. So yes, I'd like to see UN forces enter into Gaza and the West Bank.

[Zero Sum 305]

At one time there were British, and later UN and US forces enforcing the cease-fire. Israel is the one that does not want the Arab League, or any international forces "protecting" the terrorists.

In a way we can thank British Imperialism for creating so many divisions all over the planet can't we?

This is what happens when nations over step their boundaries for purely selfish reasons- military, financial, etc.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

In a way we can thank British Imperialism for creating so many divisions all over the planet can't we?

This is what happens when nations over step their boundaries for purely selfish reasons- military, financial, etc.

Haha, well then we better blame the Ottomans and the Romans too.

[Golden Gate 530]

I don't see why everybody doesn't try to understand the full picture of what is happening. To do so, it seems that the more we read and understand about it, the better for everyone. It doesn't matter which side a person is on, but to try to understand what these people are going through and have compassion for those who are suffering.

I think that here in the U.S., we tend NOT to get the full understanding of what Palestinians have been through, because of the constant blanketing of everything as 'terror'. It seems like everything is about fear. As a result, no one really looks deeply at what the people there are really feeling and experiencing on a daily basis. Here is an interesting site that has a lot of information. http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article462.

A friend of mine put it this way: What if someone invaded your house, killed your family and destroyed your property? How are you going to react? Are you going to think they are justified? What if they continue to take over all of your neighbors' property, until you are left to live in a tiny piece of land with everyone, unable to come and go as you please? What would you do in this situation?

[Vi-Jay 218]

A friend of mine put it this way: What if someone invaded your house, killed your family and destroyed your property? How are you going to react? Are you going to think they are justified? What if they continue to take over all of your neighbors' property, until you are left to live in a tiny piece of land with everyone, unable to come and go as you please? What would you do in this situation?

One of my favorite books..,

I am curious 'bout something. The palestinian plight is obviously important to the "Arab" world. Why doesn't the "Arab" world do something about it?

(I apologize for my ignorance.)

Edited June 22, 2011 by Vi-Jay

[Zero Sum 305]

Haha, well then we better blame the Ottomans and the Romans too.

Its the internet, where we blame everyone back to the Philistines and the Judeans too.

I don't see why everybody doesn't try to understand the full picture of what is happening. To do so, it seems that the more we read and understand about it, the better for everyone. It doesn't matter which side a person is on, but to try to understand what these people are going through and have compassion for those who are suffering.

I think that here in the U.S., we tend NOT to get the full understanding of what Palestinians have been through, because of the constant blanketing of everything as 'terror'. It seems like everything is about fear. As a result, no one really looks deeply at what the people there are really feeling and experiencing on a daily basis. Here is an interesting site that has a lot of information. http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article462.

A friend of mine put it this way: What if someone invaded your house, killed your family and destroyed your property? How are you going to react? Are you going to think they are justified? What if they continue to take over all of your neighbors' property, until you are left to live in a tiny piece of land with everyone, unable to come and go as you please? What would you do in this situation?

When paranoia is a de facto motto for living, we tend to sweep understanding of circumstance under the proverbial rug.