"Gaza Island"

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Shukria.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100703123724AAUASky

[Saddle Bronc 124]

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100703123724AAUASky

Eh, I could have used "vandhanalu" (apter, as that is in my wife's native tongue)--anyway I edited it to English.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Apartheid South Africa was once legitimate, too. So was Hitler's Germany. If the UN is your measure of Israel's legitimacy, then its more recent resolutions against it should be a warning for you.

On what basis do you judge me as only seeing one side of the conflict? Due to contractual barriers, I rarely even post on the subject, and have been mildly even handed, so far, so I think that shows a bias on your part.

Israel earned legitimacy when the UN gave the nation existence.

Where was the UN resolution supporting the Arab invasion in 1948?

Where was the justification for the Arab military build-up that triggered the Israeli attack that started the Six-Day War?

Where was the UN resolution supporting the Arab assault that began the Yom Kippur War in 1973?

All I see from WoM, Soffiya and others lining up against Israel is one-sided, intolerant denial. At least Ready and The Dude look at both sides of the coin. Is it any surprise that Israel finds the path to compromise difficult, when its friends can also see its failings, but its opponents can see nothing but?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Two questions.

1. Does the Gaza rocket fire do anything positive for Palestine.

2. Would the 1400 who died during the Gaza attack still have died if no rockets were fired?

Edited June 21, 2011 by Sousuke

[Pooky 3,785]

On one hand, you have small groups of poorly-equipped militants launching what are essentially crudely produced home-made rockets which lack even a simple guidance system -- most of which have fallen on unpopulated areas of the desert, killing a total of 28 Israelis since they were first launched 10 years ago.

A lie Hamas can't hide behind any longer

More On the Hamas School Bus Attack

Further details emerge on the terror strike and Israeli response.

by John Hayward

04/08/2011

Although the Hamas war crime yesterday was initially reported as a mortar attack, it turns out it was actually perpetrated with a Kornet laser-guided anti-tank missile. This is a highly advanced, very expensive third-generation missile, accurate out to 5500 meters in daylight. It is not the kind of weapon a couple of drunken Palestinians might have pulled out of their closet and accidentally fired at a school bus. It was the instrument of an attack sanctioned by what passes for a “government” in Gaza, and required significant training to deploy and fire.

The bus was clearly the intended target of this precision weapon, as the location of the attack was a rural stretch of road with few other vehicles in transit. According to Army-Technology.com, the Kornet is exported to several countries in the Middle East, including Syria, Jordan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. I can’t imagine where Hamas got theirs from.

The schoolboy critically injured in the attack was hit in the head and neck by shrapnel. He remains unconscious in Soroka University Hospital after extensive surgery, according to the Jerusalem Post. Apparently the reason more children weren’t injured or killed in the attack was that the bus had stopped, and was unloading the kids. The driver, who was less seriously injured, was the only other person on the bus when the missile hit. It looks like the heroes of Hamas didn’t want to test their skills by shooting at a moving school bus.

Another charming detail you’re not seeing in much of the mainstream media is that Hamas waited for paramedics to arrive on the scene of the missile attack before they opened up with further heavy weapons. That’s another war crime - not that anyone at the United Nations is keeping score. The Associated Press reports that U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon has “condemned the bus attack and expressed concern over civilian casualties” from Israel’s retaliatory strikes in Gaza. He also called for “de-escalation and calm to prevent any further bloodshed.” He advised the Israelis to exercise “maximum restraint.”

When savages use weapons provided by vicious dictatorships to blow away a school bus, you’re supposed to take a few deep breaths, listen to some Ravi Shankar, and maybe apply some Head-On directly to the forehead. At least, you are if you’re Jewish.

The Israelis apparently couldn’t find any mellow music to listen to, so they launched an intense retaliation against Hamas instead. They picked their targets carefully, killing two Hamas gunmen and wounding seven other Palestinians. Israeli cabinet minister Matan Vilnai said of the response, “we are acting as we see fit so that this type of fire will not continue, and so that the people behind the fire will regret it.”

CNN relayed a statement from the Israeli Defense Force that they “will not allow any attempt to harm Israeli civilians” and “hold the Hamas terrorist organization solely responsible for any terrorist activity emanating from the Gaza Strip.”

According to the AP, Hamas started feeling those regrets rather quickly: “At around midnight Thursday, with Gaza rocked by explosions, Hamas announced a cease-fire. The Israeli strikes continued, hitting Hamas facilities and smuggling tunnels.” Under the Broken Windows Fallacy so beloved of the Western left, this should stimulate the Palestinian economy tremendously. Now is a good time to buy stock in a Hamas tunnel-building company.

For their part, Hamas said through a spokesman, “The resistance movement’s response to the enemy’s massacre comes as self-defense, and to protect the citizens.” I know what he means. School buses used to terrify me when I was a little kid. Hamas also said it aimed to “pressure the occupier” to “stop committing crimes,” such as existing.

One interesting development in yesterday’s fighting was the successful engagement of the “Iron Dome” missile defense system for the first time. According to the AP, “The Iron Dome system scored a direct hit on an incoming Palestinian rocket aimed at an Israeli city, shooting it down.” It’s not a perfect defense, even if it functions with total accuracy, because Hamas can afford to throw a lot of their cheap and inaccurate long-range rockets at the Iron Dome system, and the interceptor weapons are expensive. If the United Nations is serious about “de-escalation and calm to prevent further bloodshed,” they should take a closer look at where Hamas is getting both its long and short range missiles from.

Human Events link

Kornet E Anti-Armour Missile, Russia

Key Data

Manufacturer KBP Instrument Design Bureau

Operators Russia, Syria, Jordan, UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, India, Morocco, Algeria and Greece

Length 1,200mm

Diameter 152mm

Wingspan 460mm

Missile 27kg; 29kg with launch tube

Warhead 7kg HEAT; 10kg TNT equivalent Thermobaric

Full specifications

Kornet E is the name given to the export version of the Russian Kornet missile system. The system, first shown in 1994, was developed by the KBP Instrument Design Making Bureau, Tula, Russia, and is in production and service with the Russian Army. The missile has been exported to Syria, Jordan, the UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, India, Morocco, Algeria and Greece.

Kornet is a third-generation system, developed to replace the Fagot and Konkurs missile systems in the Russian Army. It is designed to destroy tanks, including those fitted with explosive reactive armour (ERA), fortifications, entrenched troops as well as small-scale targets.

The system can be fitted to a variety of tracked and wheeled vehicles, including the BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle, as well as serving as a standalone, portable system. The self-propelled Kornet missile system is manufactured by the Volsk Mechanical Plant, Volsk, Russian Federation.

Orders and deliveries

It was reported in April 2005 that the Kornet E missile system had been ordered by the Government of Eritrea.

"Kornet E is the name given to the export version of the Russian Kornet missile system."

In March 2009, it was announced that 244 Kornet E missiles had been ordered by Peru under a $25m contract. The missile systems were delivered in January 2010.

Kornet missile

The launcher fires Kornet missiles with tandem shaped charge HEAT warheads to defeat tanks fitted with ERA or with high explosive / incendiary (thermobaric effect) warheads, for use against bunkers, fortifications and fire emplacements.

Armour penetration for the HEAT warhead is stated to be 1,200mm. Range is 5km.

The missile has semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight (SACLOS) laser beamriding guidance, flying along the line of sight to engage the target head on in a direct attack profile.

Launcher

The tripod launcher includes optical sight, thermal sight, laying drives, missile launch mechanism and missiles kept in storage and transport containers. The operator uses either optical or thermal sight to detect and track the target. The thermal sight is designated 1PN80 and is produced by the State Institute of Applied Optics (NPO GIPO) of Kazan, Russia.

army-technology.com link

Levelling the playing field brings with it the accusation of attempted cold blooded murder. Remember, this is a laser-guided anti-tank weapon, being used to attack a school bus. There was no military value in the target, just a bus, with children on board. And you wonder why there have been few, if any, stories of rocket attacks since in the media here.

The IDF are rightly criticised for the civilian casualties caused when they use a sledgehammer to try and take out a "noted" Hamas militant. Hamas didn't even pretend to attack a military target. Another couple of these and sympathy for the Palestinian struggle in the West will evaporate. The West likes a cause to support. Murder is not a cause.

[Pooky 3,785]

Is it any surprise that you would perceive those with points of view similar to your own to be more reasonable, tolerant and fair than those with points of view with which you don't agree ?

I look at their points of view as having an element of balance to them. Yours has none. You attribute no responsibility for the conflict to the Palestinians, or the surrounding Arab nations. You do not believe they should make any movement toward compromise, only the Israelis.

That view shows no tolerance whatsoever. Therefore I don't believe it to be reasonable and can't support it.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I would find a more credible source than John Hayward and Human Events.

The Hamas school bus attack was a 7 April 2011 incident in which Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired a Kornet laser-guided anti-tank missile over the border at an Israeli school bus. Hamas militants claimed responsibility.[1] The group had largely held its fire since the last major Israeli offensive in Gaza,[2] but said the attack was in retaliation for the killing of some of its leaders the previous week.[3][4]

Hamas said the bus was traveling a road often used by Israeli military vehicles and it was not known at the time of the attack that it carried schoolchildren.[5] Israel said the bus' yellow color made it easily identifiable to whoever had fired the missile and accused the group of "crossing a line."[5]

The missile hit the bus after all but one of the children had been dropped off at the kibbutz where they lived, and the bus had traveled just 50 metres beyond its that last stop there.[6] The only remaining passenger, a 16-year-old boy named Daniel Viflic, was critically injured with shrapnel wounds to the head and died from his injuries on 17 April. The driver was lightly injured.[7][8][9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_school_bus_attack

Edited June 21, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[Pooky 3,785]

I would find a more credible source than John Hayward and Human Events.

How about these?

MSNBC link

NY Times link

France24 link

Stratfor link

National Post link

The article I posted just had more links to the hardware being used. Satisfied?

[mawilson 2,133]

What are you try to show, that Israel's response was anything but measured?

Changing Pooky's quote is a new low even for you.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I just replaced the links with the headlines for those links.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[Pooky 3,785]

I just replaced the links with the headlines for those links.

Still in denial, I see.

Tell me, who did Hamas target again? Was there any military value in a school bus? Were there any Israeli soldiers using the kids on the bus as human shields?

Didn't think so. Hamas targeted the bus to kill school children, nothing more. No soldiers. No politicians. School children. And you're defending their actions. Hope you're happy.

[The Dude 206]

Oops... skipped one.

Actually, I see a huge difference.

On one hand, you have small groups of poorly-equipped militants launching what are essentially crudely produced home-made rockets which lack even a simple guidance system -- most of which have fallen on unpopulated areas of the desert, killing a total of 28 Israelis since they were first launched 10 years ago.

On the other, you have a regional superpower with one of the world’s most powerful, best-equipped armies conducting a large-scale assault using a full array of high-tech weapons (including heavy artillery, tanks and combat fighter jets) against densely populated areas packed with civilians (which it actively prevents from fleeing the war zone !) -- even using weapons such as flechette shells and white phosphorus that international law prohibits from use on civilian populations -- and ending up slaughtering more than 1400 people, nearly a quarter of which are children.

I see a huge difference there.

Yet you don't seem to grasp the inherent advantage that guerilla warfare has in this situation. For all the bombs and fighter jets the israeli army has, they can't use a vast majority of it to combat the terrorists that run the government. Hamas and Hezbollah don't follow international treaties or guidelines for war. You try to paint this in black and white terms when this situation is anything but. This isn't the case of a group of protesters throwing rocks at tanks like you seem to portray. Hamas is heavily armed, and hope to use their arms to destroy Israel.

The squawks about Hamas are just another stalling technique - Israel's own military and intelligence experts have repeatedly advised the Israeli government to "talk to Hamas."

But frankly, the Israeli government does not want to negotiate with any Palestinian government no matter who they are - because it‘s not done stealing Palestinian land yet. Successive Israeli governments have followed the same pattern for decades - demand a laundry list of pre-conditions before proceeding on any peace agreement. Then, after Palestinians jump through all the hoops, Israel simply comes up with a new list of demands/excuses as pre-conditions. Meanwhile, it continues grabbing more and more Palestinian land through its settlements, Annexation Wall and other illegal means.

So basically, as far as the Israeli government is concerned, no Palestinian government will ever be “suitable” enough to negotiate with until there’s no Palestine left to negotiate over.

Why should Israel bother negotiating with Hamas? They can't even get them to declare that Israel has a right to exist. At some point, they will have to deal with them, if they manage to get elected again. It would be nice if they could avoid electing terrorists whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel.

I don't support the new settlements that go beyond previous agreements. But I think it will be a cold day in hell before Israel concedes one inch of Jerusalem to a Palestinian state.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I just replaced the links with the headlines for those links.

Actually, no you did not. You added two additional articles that were not listed by one of the enclosed links, plus one of those links required submitting an email address and getting a subscription to read the article - which you quoted directly. This does indeed change entirely the intent of the posted article which was to quote sources, and is thus a violation of the Terms of Service for Visa Journey. Your post has been removed.

Impersonate another person or entity, or falsify or delete any author attributions, legal or other proper notices or proprietary designations or labels of the origin or source of software or other material contained in a file that is Posted.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Why should Israel bother negotiating with Hamas? They can't even get them to declare that Israel has a right to exist. At some point, they will have to deal with them, if they manage to get elected again. It would be nice if they could avoid electing terrorists whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel.

What 'Israel's right to exist' means to Palestinians

By John V. Whitbeck / February 2, 2007

JEDDAH, SAUDI ARABIA

Since the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel and much of the West have asserted that the principal obstacle to any progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace is the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel," or to "recognize Israel's existence," or to "recognize Israel's right to exist."

These three verbal formulations have been used by Israel, the United States, and the European Union as a rationale for collective punishment of the Palestinian people. The phrases are also used by the media, politicians, and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not.

"Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal and diplomatic act by one state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate – indeed, nonsensical – to talk about a political party or movement extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply to use sloppy, confusing, and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made of the Palestinians.

"Recognizing Israel's existence" appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgment of a fact of life. Yet there are serious practical problems with this language. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? Is it the 55 percent of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78 percent of historical Palestine occupied by the Zionist movement in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"? The 100 percent of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" (without any "Green Line") on maps in Israeli schoolbooks?

Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would necessarily place limits on them. Still, if this were all that was being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for the ruling political party to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a state of Israel exists today within some specified borders. Indeed, Hamas leadership has effectively done so in recent weeks.

"Recognizing Israel's right to exist," the actual demand being made of Hamas and Palestinians, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or a simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment.

There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist." From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point.

Some believe that Yasser Arafat did concede the point in order to buy his ticket out of the wilderness of demonization and earn the right to be lectured directly by the Americans. But in fact, in his famous 1988 statement in Stockholm, he accepted "Israel's right to exist in peace and security." This language, significantly, addresses the conditions of existence of a state which, as a matter of fact, exists. It does not address the existential question of the "rightness" of the dispossession and dispersal of the Palestinian people from their homeland to make way for another people coming from abroad.

The original conception of the phrase "Israel's right to exist" and of its use as an excuse for not talking with any Palestinian leaders who still stood up for the rights of their people are attributed to former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. It is highly likely that those countries that still employ this phrase do so in full awareness of what it entails, morally and psychologically, for the Palestinian people.

However, many people of goodwill and decent values may well be taken in by the surface simplicity of the words, "Israel's right to exist," and believe that they constitute a reasonable demand. And if the "right to exist" is reasonable, then refusing to accept it must represent perversity, rather than Palestinians' deeply felt need to cling to their self-respect and dignity as full-fledged human beings. That this need is deeply felt is evidenced by polls showing that the percentage of the Palestinian population that approves of Hamas's refusal to bow to this demand substantially exceeds the percentage that voted for Hamas in January 2006.

Those who recognize the critical importance of Israeli-Palestinian peace and truly seek a decent future for both peoples must recognize that the demand that Hamas recognize "Israel's right to exist" is unreasonable, immoral, and impossible to meet. Then, they must insist that this roadblock to peace be removed, the economic siege of the Palestinian territories be lifted, and the pursuit of peace with some measure of justice be resumed with the urgency it deserves.

• John V. Whitbeck, an international lawyer, is the author of, "The World According to Whitbeck." He has advised Palestinian officials in negotiations with Israel.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Actually, no you did not. You added two additional articles that were not listed by one of the enclosed links, plus one of those links required submitting an email address and getting a subscription to read the article - which you quoted directly. This does indeed change entirely the intent of the posted article which was to quote sources, and is thus a violation of the Terms of Service for Visa Journey. Your post has been removed.

Each of those links are the same. The url's didn't change. All that changed was the text of the links. But it does no good to protest, and 90% of the time you are fair-handed, so I have to take the mostly good with the occasional bad.